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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> A juried challenge post 2
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 11/10/2005 02:22:01 PM · #26
I really like the idea too, but since I'm not participating in the Free Study (I think), I would like to see it as a separate challenge.

My $0.02!
 11/10/2005 02:22:56 PM · #27
I think this is unfortunate, I was looking forward to seeing the results of the experiment. We've never limited the ways in which people discuss photos on this site before, I'm not sure why we need to start now. Perhaps you need a new spokesperson, John.
 11/10/2005 02:27:37 PM · #28
I'd like to commend John for his reaction to the objection raised by ursula, and others. As John pointed out, it is a legitimate objection and it came from a person with some measure of authority in our community. I think ursula may have been speaking for many more than herself. People who, like John, are not interested in being dished with crap.

No matter how interesting and attractive the idea is to some of us, you must admit that it is not what members paid for when they ponied up their $25. I am very sympathetic to someone wanting to enter the Nov Free Study without being involved in more than that. If I was forced to make a decision I think I may have sat it out. But, thankfully, I don't have to make that decision.

I also want to thank e301, one of John's selected jurors, for helping us to understand the situation with this statement -

"There is a vital difference between the two types of assessment however, that arguably wouldn't have worked in this instance, which is that many people would submit a different image to a jury than to an open vote (I would myself, certainly)."

Message edited by author 2005-11-10 16:22:38.
 11/10/2005 02:38:21 PM · #29
Originally posted by mk:
I think this is unfortunate, I was looking forward to seeing the results of the experiment. We've never limited the ways in which people discuss photos on this site before, I'm not sure why we need to start now. Perhaps you need a new spokesperson, John.


I do not object to the idea. I perceived it as being forced into something without being asked first, and I objected to that. I don't think John needs a spokesperson, he can be very eloquent all by himself.

I would like the experiment to continue, and would be interested in the results. But I think participants should have the option to participate or not.

If it helps, I would volunteer to help with the experiment (added later: to make it happen, not as juror, those have been picked and are very good choices), as long as participants have a choice to participate or not.

I think this experiment is different than the threads after the challenges. A lot more attention would be paid to this. The threads after the challenges do not generate a list of "winners", this would.

[Edited wording]

Message edited by author 2005-11-10 14:55:46.
 11/10/2005 03:00:19 PM · #30
Originally posted by coolhar:
I'd like to commend John for his reaction to the objection raised by ursala, and others. As John pointed out, it is a legitimate objection and it came from a person with some measure of authority in our community. I think ursala may have been speaking for many more than herself. People who, like John, are not interested in being dished with crap.

No matter how interesting and attractive the idea is to some of us, you must admit that it is not what members paid for when they ponied up their $25. I am very sympathetic to someone wanting to enter the Nov Free Study without being involved in more than that. If I was forced to make a decision I think I may have sat it out. But, thankfully, I don't have to make that decision.

I also want to thank e301, one of John's selected jurors, for helping us to understand the situation with this statement -

"There is a vital difference between the two types of assessment however, that arguably wouldn't have worked in this instance, which is that many people would submit a different image to a jury than to an open vote (I would myself, certainly)."


A lot of things have changed since I paid my membership some I agreed with some I didn't. I don't think that is a valid reason not to experiment an idea.

But really the whole idea is not foreign to this site, currently anyone can comment on photos, put them in forums and discuss them, tell everyone how and why they voted after the challenge etc etc. This is what a juried contest would do but in a more structured way.

I agree also with e301 but this can be avoided to some extent if the jury were unknown.

But perhaps some members do all ready submit images that they know are not going to win a popular poll. These members probably would rather have an appraisel from an esteem member as in a juried challenge.
11/10/2005 03:35:07 PM · #31
Originally posted by keegbow:
A lot of things have changed since I paid my membership some I agreed with some I didn't. I don't think that is a valid reason not to experiment an idea.

I think it's valid for people not to be forced to be part of an experiment when all they want to do is partake in the Nov Free Study. I think John recognized this point.

However that does not mean that the experiment shouldn't go forward under altered terms.

Originally posted by keegbow:
But really the whole idea is not foreign to this site, currently anyone can comment on photos, put them in forums and discuss them, tell everyone how and why they voted after the challenge etc etc. This is what a juried contest would do but in a more structured way.

What has been proposed in this case is a far cry from the kind of discussions we have had about challenge entries and challenges results in the past. I don't think there should be any arguement on that point.

Originally posted by keegbow:
I agree also with e301 but this can be avoided to some extent if the jury were unknown.

But perhaps some members do all ready submit images that they know are not going to win a popular poll. These members probably would rather have an appraisel from an esteem member as in a juried challenge.

That's a pretty big assumption on your part but even if it were true it does not take into account what e301 said. People would select different types of images to enter if they were going to be juried than if they were aiming at the normal dpc voter crowd.

11/10/2005 03:44:55 PM · #32
Could you pm me the link too Keegbow?
 11/10/2005 03:49:03 PM · #33
Originally posted by ursula:
I was the one objecting, and I was objecting personally, not as a SC member.



Your opinions, being a part of the SC, are viewed as an opinion of the people who run the site. Do you think a president could make a comment, then say it was just his personal opinion, not the opinion of the president's?

Just offer another free study challenge where only the Panel will judge it. If you don't want judged, enter it into the other free study challenge.

It should be named "Juried Free Study" so people will know. JM2C.
 11/10/2005 03:52:47 PM · #34
if we're voting:

I vote for a special challenge that people can choose to enter.

I vote to have a poll opened to all members of this site to determine the identity of the Judges (short list decided by SC probably) instead of them being determined by an informal poll in a thread that many people did not even see.

This is a good idea, IMO. The single objection by the 1% (as slippy put it) can be avoided by making this another special member only challenge.


11/10/2005 03:59:35 PM · #35
Originally posted by wavelength:
if we're voting:

I vote for a special challenge that people can choose to enter.

I vote to have a poll opened to all members of this site to determine the identity of the Judges (short list decided by SC probably) instead of them being determined by an informal poll in a thread that many people did not even see.

This is a good idea, IMO. The single objection by the 1% (as slippy put it) can be avoided by making this another special member only challenge.


I think the list of judges is pretty good.
 11/10/2005 04:01:48 PM · #36
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

I think the list of judges is pretty good.


I like the list of Judges too, I just thought that some might also dislike the fashion in which they were chosen. If that were to be a fully open process, it might alleviate some more objection, and encourage more people to participate.

I meant nothing at all against the currently chosen "experimental" judges.
 11/10/2005 04:08:16 PM · #37
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

I think the list of judges is pretty good.


I like the list of Judges too, I just thought that some might also dislike the fashion in which they were chosen. If that were to be a fully open process, it might alleviate some more objection, and encourage more people to participate.

I meant nothing at all against the currently chosen "experimental" judges.


Choosing judges is never an open process in any juried contest. People need brought up to speed how the real world works. ;o)
 11/10/2005 04:22:38 PM · #38
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Originally posted by ursula:
I was the one objecting, and I was objecting personally, not as a SC member.



Your opinions, being a part of the SC, are viewed as an opinion of the people who run the site. Do you think a president could make a comment, then say it was just his personal opinion, not the opinion of the president's?



I think even SC members can have private opinions. In my case, I would prefer to be compared to the Prime Minister, the GG, or even the Queen. :)))) (but please, not the Premier of BC)
 11/10/2005 04:24:24 PM · #39
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Choosing judges is never an open process in any juried contest. People need brought up to speed how the real world works. ;o)


Who said that this was the real world??? ;-)
 11/10/2005 04:56:07 PM · #40
I think, in large part, ideas are received differently based on how they are presented. When ideas are posted to the "Challenge Suggestions" threads and implimented by the admins (usually after discussion among the SC), things usually go pretty well.

When users suddenly impliment experiments themselves without discussion, people are apt to say "Whoa! wait a second!"

There was an idea already made in the forums that we try to stage a challenge with 2-5 outside (the DPC community) photographers forming the jury. I'd like to do that, and with an ordinary themed challenge, to really see how different the voting would be.

I know I get frustrated when I see ideas which I'd otherwise like get shot down because they're implimented unilaterally and without any input (much less permission) from the admins. I strongly suggest using the Suggestions threads before trying to put an experiment in motion, or contact the admins if it needs to be kept a "surprise."
 11/10/2005 04:58:36 PM · #41
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.
 11/10/2005 05:02:21 PM · #42
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.


Why bother then. You need thicker skin...
 11/10/2005 05:06:52 PM · #43
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.


Why bother then. You need thicker skin...


Because i'm curious to see how the results compare with the actual results of the challenge.
 11/10/2005 05:10:04 PM · #44
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.


Why bother then. You need thicker skin...


Because i'm curious to see how the results compare with the actual results of the challenge.


Would you also make the results available via private requests?
 11/10/2005 05:25:52 PM · #45
I'm trying to get a grip on this discussion and I'm having a bit of trouble...

I think it's a fanstastic idea to have periodic Juried Challenges with a nice wide open jury. The topic doesn't need to be free study either as I see it but any opportunity for people to be judjed by a group that has a more discerning....perhaps educated eye.

I would welcome the chance of such a challenge with open arms.

Keep it all completely transparent...above board and that's about as fair as it can get.
 11/10/2005 05:29:01 PM · #46
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.


Perhaps John as per my original post in this thread the results could be posted elsewhere for people who were interested in participating.
 11/10/2005 05:29:20 PM · #47
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.


Why bother then. You need thicker skin...


Because i'm curious to see how the results compare with the actual results of the challenge.


You may already have this planned, but I'll point out that if you want to do that without bias, you will need to keep the judges "blind" to the results of the challenge. Perhaps you should have them at least make their decision before the end of the challenge.

While I think judged competitions are good, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to piggyback it on a challenge. I am sure you are aware that your results will probably cause some hard feelings among the "popular" winners of that challenge. And while I think it's interesting, I am not sure what you really expect to find comparing a popular vote to a judged contest other than the results will be different. By the way, we already did that in a much bigger contest in 2000. ;-)

You say that it will be a learning experience for people. What will "Joe Entry" get out of it? Are you planning to have the judges write critiques of all the entries? That would be great, though I realize that it's not typical. So if not, my (sincere) question is: what would the non-winning entrants "learn" from the experiment beyond what they might get submitting to a site that has a judged Photo of the Day (Digital Image Cafe is one such example)?

I know that the above sounds like I am against the idea, but that's not true. I just think this kind of thing should suggested, the goals and parameters discussed, and then be planned by the admin or site council. Or done completely separately. Then the idea has the best chance of benefiting the community rather than an individuals curiosity.

Maybe that's indeed what will happen here.
 11/10/2005 05:32:40 PM · #48
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Because i'm curious to see how the results compare with the actual results of the challenge.


And that's the point. A separate, jury-only challenge will not achieve the original intention, which John has reiterated in this quote. It's interesting only if we can compare the juried and popular acclaim versions of the results. It happens in hundreds of art prizes in galleries all around the world; there's nothing revolutionary about it.
 11/10/2005 05:33:46 PM · #49
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I may just go forward with the experiment and keep the results private between myself and the jurors.


I think this is the wrong tack, I think everyone here would not oppose the addition of a Judged Challenge.

This kind of smacks of the old "the voters don't know what they're talking about" bit. It seems you're original intent now was not to get a judged challenge going, but to see how stupid the voters (read 99% of the people who are members) are.

correct me if I'm wrong, but we're getting into a shallow attempt to prove that the voting process is a sham, instead of an interesting new feature/contest.

please tell me that I'm wrong on that, because I don't want to have that nagging at me.
 11/10/2005 05:36:58 PM · #50
Originally posted by wavelength:

correct me if I'm wrong, but we're getting into a shallow attempt to prove that the voting process is a sham, instead of an interesting new feature/contest.

please tell me that I'm wrong on that, because I don't want to have that nagging at me.


OK, you're wrong.
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