| Author | Thread |
|
|
11/09/2005 09:39:43 PM · #1 |
I'm resurrecting an old conversation here, but I think that the matter discussed at the time--late September--is still relevant. Here I quote the estimable BradP:
Originally posted by BradP:
One of the sad things that is happening lately is there has been a huge shift in photographic integrity and values here in the last 6-12 months. Watching styles evolve from high-quality, emotive and photojournalistic shots to heavy-handed software-altered artistic displays has taken this site by storm. Each has their place in the world of photography and the arts, but seems so much anymore if a shot can't be made in the eye/mind of the photographer and in the camera, with only basic darkroom-type changes, then by all means let's punch in some filters and wow everyone.
I hope I am offending no one here, and I'll be the first to raise my hand that I have been guilty of doing the same too.
|
I agree with this, and I've adopted a post-processing-heavy approach myself, and tend to err on the side of too much vs. too little processing. The photos that end up on top do have a different character than they used to; definitely there is a tendency for flashiness, however cliche, to be disproportionately well rewarded. What startles me most about this is the apparent lack of what you might call "collective voter memory" - as if voters have forgotten, on the whole, that a great deal of the top 10 pictures from many challenges are using rather worn out concepts and approaches.
I would like to think that this is the sign of a trend that will come and go as trends tend to, and I think it's possible that it is, but maybe not.
I'm going to assume that DPC members, if they stick around for a while, will gradually develop a discerning eye for photographic quality, which includes an awareness of subtlety and a rough knowledge of what's been done a hundred times and what's genuine creativity. This suggests that if a body of DPC members/voters stays pretty stable for a while, the photos that get the ribbons will reflect that more discerning eye and steer away from the cliche.
Since that's not what's happening, I am led to believe that DPC's membership is in something of a state of flux, or at the least, fairly steadily acquiring a substantial stream of new members. If this instability levels itself out, then the stuff that shows up on the front page will change.
I'm not privy to any actual numbers, nor am I familiar with growth models for communities like dpchallenge, but I would hope that eventually something like market saturation would occur, and the flow of new members would slow to a trickle, if only for the sake of alleviating the problem you so eloquently expressed in your September post.
|
|
|
|
11/09/2005 10:10:53 PM · #2 |
| Ya know, I've wondered the same thing. Will the DPC community eventually level out with a large majority of "established' members (those with 6 months of membership or more). Of course, by doing so, it would mean that the site was becoming stagnant, and not keeping up with the times. So, I don't think it's likely to ever come to pass. Therefore, the "old cliche's are probably likely to recur with regular frequency. However, it doesn't mean that it can't be with a slightly different flair brought in by a rising new talent or previously unrecognized star... |
|
|
|
11/09/2005 10:22:47 PM · #3 |
I remember when THIS GUY first joined the site. nobody knew who he was, and he entered the shot below which scored an astounding 4.736.
then he won a billion ribbons, made the top favourite fotog list, gave a billion or so useful critiques, and changed the way a lot of people look at photography (myself included).
the ebb and flow is good. without it, there'd be no new BradPs.
edit: oh...sorry...and to the other point about editing - better photographs win, period. An average photo with great editing will lose to a great photo with average editing hands down. my opinion, of course.
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 22:25:39. |
|
|
|
11/09/2005 10:40:38 PM · #4 |
I don't see a problem. There have always been new subjects and techniques mixed in with the tried and true. What I find interesting is that the "top" photographers seem to come in waves. At this time last year, you'd always see EvilMonkey (then Smokeditor), Bongo, Heida, BradP, Tyt2000, Graphicfunk and Jonpink among the top 20. Now it's Elsapo, Guarawa, JoeyLawrence, Cutter, DrAchoo and Nico_Blue. Next year, who knows?
I think the site will continue to improve and the bar will go ever higher as the group becomes more discerning with experience and more rookies figure out their strengths and join the already-consistent top scorers. |
|
|
|
11/09/2005 10:47:16 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I don't see a problem. There have always been new subjects and techniques mixed in with the tried and true. What I find interesting is that the "top" photographers seem to come in waves. At this time last year, you'd always see EvilMonkey (then Smokeditor), Bongo, Heida, BradP, Tyt2000, Graphicfunk and Jonpink among the top 20. Now it's Elsapo, Guarawa, JoeyLawrence, Cutter, DrAchoo and Nico_Blue. Next year, who knows?
I think the site will continue to improve and the bar will go ever higher as the group becomes more discerning with experience and more rookies figure out their strengths and join the already-consistent top scorers. |
Also, along with that, it seems from what I have reviewed on the profiles in some of the more prominent memebers, is the seeming habit of those who have done well to become satiated maybe? Meaning that they only enter photo's when they really feel like it, or have an incredible shot that they juat have to enter.
Many of the newer ones of us feel compelled to enter every challenge, sometimes just to see what happens and what we can learn. I think once the drive to come into control of our art is satisfied on some level, we have less of a desire to prove ourselves through challenges.
And really, who wants to lower their average?
BTW - as far as I can tell, Heida is still beating on everyone with big frozen nordic stick. :o)
|
|
|
|
11/09/2005 10:56:35 PM · #6 |
I thought about creating a post like this the other day...so I'm glad you did.
Personally, before the whole Joey Lawrence thing and the 'grunge' thing was beaten to death, again, and again, and again, and again, I was into it. Now, I'm back out because the challenges are just over-saturated with it.
I'm not saying I'm a good photographer by any means or that I know how to compose a shot better than the next guy (or anyone else for that matter), but it seems people are just forgetting the basic rules of photography...they just take a shot and figure they'll just turn it into something magical in photoshop. Well that's fine and dandy...but I'm more into quality out of the camera now.
We'll see what happens.
--
Anyway, that whole post-processing thing is just what's hot right now (here anyway). I'm glad I got out of it because there is only very limited space in the pro photography world for those types of 'artists'. Sure, there are the select few and they really excel in that form, but for the most part, these photogs that are producing this stuff AREN'T the ones doing the processing...it's two different entities in and of itself. You either do one...or the other. Which goes to show you that even if you have some superb editing skills, every one of those photographs starts with a photographer that knows so much about composition, lighting, white balance, shade, and everything else photography related that it would make your head spin. Then...and only then...when one has reached that point, should one focus on the post as strongly as some are trying.
--
Anyway...I rambled long enough.
|
|
|
|
11/09/2005 11:02:53 PM · #7 |
Well, speaking for myself, it could be a number of issues. As much as I'd love to enter every challenge, I've been really busy at work for several months, and that cuts into my shooting time. Even when I do have time, I might take a shot that I'm not satisfied with, or the topics might not be particularly inspiring. I took shots for both Garbage II and the Pumpkin challenge, but I wasn't especially proud of either (actually, my Garbage photo would have scored high, but I still wasn't happy with it).
Some photographers might "prove themselves" as you say, then concentrate on shooting only what interests them (Jmsetzler springs to mind). If it happens to fit a chellenge, then they'll enter, but otherwise they're not going to waste time for another virtual ribbon.
P.S... Kiwiness still appears to trump Heida. ;-)
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 23:04:50. |
|
|
|
11/09/2005 11:19:48 PM · #8 |
I enjoy all kinds of imagery, manipulated or not. I think in most cases, if the starting image does not work- the editing won't. You've got to know a bit of both sides, and see what works for you.
I started heavily processing things to hide the lacking quality of my old 1.3mp camera. The meat was there but it needed marinating, ya know? ;-) |
|
|
|
11/09/2005 11:44:47 PM · #9 |
Joey marinates his meat. :)
|
|
|
|
11/09/2005 11:46:16 PM · #10 |
It's kinda like fads. Since I joined two years ago (to the day, today, matter of fact) I have seen several come and go.
A few of those techniques that people replicated (or tried to) while the fad was in...
jonpink's high contrast B&W images (his are still some of my favorite photos on the site)
kiwiness and is multiple exposures (his clones)
Now it is heida's dodge&burn moody images and Joey's dark/grunge images.
As people experiment with the techniques and learn they will move on to the next technique or style they are trying to learn. It's a cycle that is ever changing.
|
|
|
|
11/10/2005 12:50:38 AM · #11 |
I'm one of those "new ones" = less than 6 months. I thought I was doing some decent work, only to go down in flames on the first challenge. But I've taken a look at some awesome images, read tutorials and have tried my hand at editing (and posting in the forums for that matter.) With all of that, I started to be much more discerning about what reallyworks, why it does and the audience I'm appealing to. Then I turn in an image I think is "decent, but not unique" and end up with a ribbon. Is my work cliche? Possibly - it is a stage in my development.
The learning curve has been huge. I've been so appreciative of having an audience that will be honest in their reaction to my work. Sometimes I've cringed at the prospect of looking at my feed back or score (another form of feedback) and sometimes it has been great (even when it was negative), but I have had honesty. That means a lot to me.
With all this learning, I'm still working on my style. I'll imitate techniques and methods that I think might take me closer to what I see inside my head. Sometimes it will work and sometimes it won't. I doubt I'll ever be a lead out creative thinker (too many years of repression, yet I will add my own flair to things in my own way, until after a while it will be mine and no one elses.
That's what I see in these fads. An opportunity to try an effect you admire/respect/think will enhance your vision. If it becomes a part of you, you'll keep it, otherwise we'll move on. But until I've tried on the fad, I won't know if it fits me or not will I?
After some more time, I'll either fade out of the scene, or start searching for some other way of pushing my work to a new level. That's when the style or technique will emerge. And I may be leading it, but most likely I'll be trying it on for size.
Becky |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 01:23:55 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:
...if the starting image does not work- the editing won't... |
Wise words from the 16 year old.
I don't know whether to be touched by being mentioned above, or be alarmed that my shelf life is likely to be measured in months. Here's to trying to stay on top of the pile... |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 01:27:32 AM · #13 |
| Alright, Im a new guy here to this website, I have liked photography for a long time. I would not have found this site unless BradP had not posted his pics into another website Which he an I have been apart of for nearly 10 years. Fads come go, but good photos stay, sometimes they score good, and sometime not so good. But as a wise man told me (yo guessed it) take pictures your like, and improve them. Thanx Lugnut:) |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 01:30:07 AM · #14 |
It's also interesting to note that of the current 12 ribbons on the front page NONE are heavily processed and the two most processed images, IMO, come from two old-schoolers in kiwiness and ursula...
Maybe we see the boogeyman a little too much. Image Grain had it in spades, but that was the whole idea of the challenge, wasn't it?
Message edited by author 2005-11-10 01:30:24. |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 04:24:58 AM · #15 |
I think some people are seeing this site as the be all and end all of photography.
Have a look around visit other sites go and join a local camera club. What happens here should only be a small piece in your knowledge base.
What I'm trying to say is broaden your horizons the ebb and flow of styles here is only a reflection of art in general.
|
|
|
|
11/10/2005 07:48:56 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I think some people are seeing this site as the be all and end all of photography. |
Errrr...ummm...well, mmm but ...hmmmm
You mean, there are other sites?
No way..... ;)
(btw....looking into a local camera club, as we speak)
Message edited by author 2005-11-10 07:50:27. |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 07:54:53 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's also interesting to note that of the current 12 ribbons on the front page NONE are heavily processed and the two most processed images, IMO, come from two old-schoolers in kiwiness and ursula... |
Well, you have to remember, of the 12 images, 6 are BASIC EDITING -- including ursula's -- which can't be heavily edited.
Three are just pumpkins, not really much thought in two of the three, of course Coley's shot is spectacular.
|
|
|
|
11/10/2005 11:29:32 AM · #18 |
Dang Deapee, people weren't supposed to notice that...
Although the pumpkin shots allowed even heavier processing than usual and people didn't bite too much. ;)
Message edited by author 2005-11-10 11:29:52. |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 11:37:07 AM · #19 |
You can track the number of new registered users to the site by looking at the page that appears when you click on About in the drop down menu under Help. In any given week we usually have nearly as many newcomers as we have votes in a challenge. I think that the newcomers, and the next most recent group to come to the site (say people who have been here less than a year) are doing most of the voting. I think that the long term users (defined roughly as people who have paid for a one year membership more than once) tend to vote quite a bit less than they did when they were new to the site.
I agree that there is a certain ebb & flow to the top finishing images, but there is also an underlying, steadily moving trend. As the fads come and go, and as the cliches are repeated by each generation of newcomers, the trend here toward depending more on software to get the most out of our shots goes on without ever reversing itself. And I believe that this comes at the expense of an emphasis on the importance of good camera technique. Even as the advances of technology have greatly improved the equipment that is available to us; and as we, as a group, have upgraded our equipment substantially (so many of us now think of a DSLR as an entry level digital camera), we are tending to use less and less of that superior equipment's potential to best advantage at the same time as we are learning to depend more and more on software to polish our image files to meet the current fads/popular styles.
|
|
|
|
11/10/2005 11:57:08 AM · #20 |
Would not worry about it. This site only has a handful of people on it, compared with the masses out there. Just stick to the style you have, and work with it. Sometimes this group will "like" what you did; sometimes not.
I myself, do not stick to what a group likes, I stick to what I like.
Plus, those who are on top now open their eggs from the bottom not the top. Barbarians. |
|
|
|
11/10/2005 12:44:51 PM · #21 |
The human race was not created to be intelligent or toughtful.
So just SHOOT!
|
|
|
|
11/10/2005 12:59:02 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
(actually, my Garbage photo would have scored high, but I still wasn't happy with it). |
It is nice to see a vote total wasn't your motivation and here lies the hope for this site...(sheesh, pompous aye! :-/)
Message edited by author 2005-11-10 14:05:20. |
|
|
|
11/16/2005 09:50:24 AM · #23 |
*Newbie raises his hand*
Iâm one of those new to the site⦠Here for only 1 month and 3 challenges entered. So far, Iâve only wanted the basic editing, because I want to start my improvement from the beginning - in camera composition. That focus, and limits on editing was why I chose to invest my time in this site over others.
That said⦠most of the discussions and forums have been on processing and editing. Just look at the tutorials â 15 on post-processing vs 2 on composition. It is only natural to get swept away by it.
The most notable exceptions have been in the mentorship programs in the âOut and Aboutâ forums. They cover a lot of in camera basics. Iâve been spending most of my time back reading them (even though most of the picture links are now broken). I would love to see this program expanded.
Personally, Iâd like more interaction on art theory and composition. What is âRule of Thirdsâ and how do you use it? What is negative space, and why can it sometimes be even more important? What balances a composition with regards to size, number, and position of objects? What âcarries the eyesâ in a composition? These are just examples, and not intended to steal the thread.
|
|
|
|
11/16/2005 10:04:41 AM · #24 |
When I look at my 'triptych' entry, and some of the other shots I've taken since I joined the site, I realised just how much DPC has started to influence the way I take and edit photos, and even the way I view other peoples shots.
I only hope it's influencing me in the right direction, and I don't end up taking endless macros of flowers and veiled women... (not that there's anything wrong with these subjects, but you get my drift)
Admittedly, my photography has become more enjoyable, and I feel as though I've improved 100 fold since joining. I just don't want to become 'one of the herd', that's all. |
|
|
|
11/16/2005 01:05:52 PM · #25 |
| Not to fear. Nothing evil is taking place. It is all waves that fluctuate to accent one experience or the other. Everyone has their own taste and will defend it at the expense of another's. There is more that lies outside of ourselves and here is where DPC excells in bringing about these visual studies. I try to branch out as much as possible but then I am ready to acknowledge something that is great even though it is above my limitations. I consider photography as art and not at all as a recording medium. Art can be expressed in so many different ways which include camera angle, time, composition, color, post processing and even transitions into the graphical realm. These are all tools to aid the artist. So yes, the site shifts but it is simply because it is all inclusive. The pendulum swings and everyone in their own class and style are merely exposed to possibilities that exist outside of ourselves and this is what it is all about. If some appear as fads they will soon die but even in a fad one can find a gem. |
|
