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10/05/2005 04:04:37 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Is it possible to make a tilt-shift adapter to fit a normal lens? |
Not really. But if you have a compatible body, you can use the Cambo Ultima 35 to get all the movements of a "real" view camera... although you do need to use special lenses in this configuration... |
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10/05/2005 04:36:40 PM · #27 |
I remember going over this topic in school and my teacher had 3D diagrams to explain the dynamics of a tilt shift on a large format camera. As well as the real thing to play with, although I never ran any film through it I feel I got the idea. Its a really neat tool. The lense baby is a cheap tilt shift type lens if I am not mistaken.
GG |
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10/05/2005 04:47:32 PM · #28 |
Thanks for all the useful responses! I understand the principles behind the tilt and shift business, but when focal length comes into it it becomes quite confusing. I find it most interesting that you can shift a lens like this of a certain focal length and get effectively a crop from a wider angle lens. This is why i'm quite confused about the focal lengths, actually :)
What nobody has really answered yet though, what's the relationship between the amount of shift of a lens, and its focal length? If you shift say a 24mm lens by 10mm, and an 80mm by 10mm, what would be the difference between the changes in perspective? I presume the longer lens would move the image in the viewfinder further along, but geometrically speaking, which would have the greater change in converging line angles?
Also, is there any difference (generally speaking, because all TS lenses will be different) between the actual physical amount of shift you can employ on wide lenses and on long lenses? Presumably the entire image circles produced by wide TS lenses would differ from long TS lenses? If anybody knows any specifics, i'm most interested in Canon TS-E lenses.
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10/05/2005 04:58:00 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by riot:
Thanks for all the useful responses! I understand the principles behind the tilt and shift business, but when focal length comes into it it becomes quite confusing. I find it most interesting that you can shift a lens like this of a certain focal length and get effectively a crop from a wider angle lens. This is why i'm quite confused about the focal lengths, actually :)
What nobody has really answered yet though, what's the relationship between the amount of shift of a lens, and its focal length? If you shift say a 24mm lens by 10mm, and an 80mm by 10mm, what would be the difference between the changes in perspective? I presume the longer lens would move the image in the viewfinder further along, but geometrically speaking, which would have the greater change in converging line angles?
Also, is there any difference (generally speaking, because all TS lenses will be different) between the actual physical amount of shift you can employ on wide lenses and on long lenses? Presumably the entire image circles produced by wide TS lenses would differ from long TS lenses? If anybody knows any specifics, i'm most interested in Canon TS-E lenses. |
Are gonna buy one of these lens? If yes, then you are buying on for a specific purpose. Other than just to know, why do you need to know?
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10/05/2005 05:02:44 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Are gonna buy one of these lens? If yes, then you are buying on for a specific purpose. Other than just to know, why do you need to know? |
I disagree, i think they're quite versatile. There's a lot you can do with such a lens, in many different sorts of situations. Sure, a lot of people buy them for some particular purpose, mainly architecture photography, but i think there's more they can do and it would be a fun (though expensive) toy to play with. And i'd like to know, because it would influence my choice of focal length if i buy such a lens.
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10/05/2005 05:17:21 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by riot:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Are gonna buy one of these lens? If yes, then you are buying on for a specific purpose. Other than just to know, why do you need to know? |
I disagree, i think they're quite versatile. There's a lot you can do with such a lens, in many different sorts of situations. Sure, a lot of people buy them for some particular purpose, mainly architecture photography, but i think there's more they can do and it would be a fun (though expensive) toy to play with. And i'd like to know, because it would influence my choice of focal length if i buy such a lens. |
I meant your either gonna buy a tele or a wide TS, pick one that fits what you want to use it for. I've always been fond of the 24mm. It fits most of what I like to shoot. All canon's TS lenses are pretty sharp.
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10/05/2005 05:37:08 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
I meant your either gonna buy a tele or a wide TS, pick one that fits what you want to use it for. I've always been fond of the 24mm. It fits most of what I like to shoot. All canon's TS lenses are pretty sharp. |
Well, i'd use it in a lot of different situations. I can think of lots of reasons i'd use a wide one, i.e. buildings i can't get too far away from, interiors, but i can also think of lots of uses that a long lens would fulfil better than cropping a shot from a wide TS lens... but that's another reason i was wondering about the difference in shift effect.
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10/05/2005 06:26:53 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by riot:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
I meant your either gonna buy a tele or a wide TS, pick one that fits what you want to use it for. I've always been fond of the 24mm. It fits most of what I like to shoot. All canon's TS lenses are pretty sharp. |
Well, i'd use it in a lot of different situations. I can think of lots of reasons i'd use a wide one, i.e. buildings i can't get too far away from, interiors, but i can also think of lots of uses that a long lens would fulfil better than cropping a shot from a wide TS lens... but that's another reason i was wondering about the difference in shift effect. |
hmm. I have used both the 90 and the 24. Other than product shots I didn't the 90 much.
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10/06/2005 11:19:35 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by riot:
What nobody has really answered yet though, what's the relationship between the amount of shift of a lens, and its focal length? If you shift say a 24mm lens by 10mm, and an 80mm by 10mm, what would be the difference between the changes in perspective? I presume the longer lens would move the image in the viewfinder further along, but geometrically speaking, which would have the greater change in converging line angles? |
Let's assume for the sake of argument that in horizontal orientation your sensor is 20mm from top to bottom. Then your putative 10mm shift is half the sensor, right? Now with your 24mm lens your top-to-bottom angular coverage on landscape format is about 53 degrees. So your angular shift with the 24mm is roughly 26 degrees, shifting vertically in landscape orientation. In the same orientation a 9omm lens covers roughly 15 degrees, so the angular shift with a 10mm shift is about 7.5 degrees.
In other words, given the same amount of shift physically (10mm in this example) the angular shift is greater the wider the angle of the lens, and thus the visual effect is much more noticeable on the wide angle lens. To put this in perspective (so to speak), imagine if you had the same 10 degrees of shift available on a 400mm lens. The effect on the image would be negligible, as the 400mm is covering less than 3.5 degrees, and the shift is thus anly a little more than 1.5 degrees.
Think of it like this; the angular shift is roughly comparable to the amount you'd have to angle the camera up (assuming you're shifting up) to cover the same area without the shift feature. You'd have to point the 24mm lens 23 degrees more "up", a really noticeable thing. With the 400mm, less than 2 degrees of inclination; no need for the shift, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, see?
Originally posted by riot:
Also, is there any difference (generally speaking, because all TS lenses will be different) between the actual physical amount of shift you can employ on wide lenses and on long lenses? Presumably the entire image circles produced by wide TS lenses would differ from long TS lenses? If anybody knows any specifics, i'm most interested in Canon TS-E lenses. |
The Canon lenses both have an image circle of approximately 58.5mm. So the amount of shift, physically, is the same for these lenses. Speaking of the shift as an angular component the wider lens has "more shift" than the narrower one, but physically the amount of movement available is essentially identical. It's proscribed by the physical limitations of the mount.
Robt.
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10/06/2005 03:24:16 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that in horizontal orientation your sensor is 20mm from top to bottom. Then your putative 10mm shift is half the sensor, right? Now with your 24mm lens your top-to-bottom angular coverage on landscape format is about 53 degrees. So your angular shift with the 24mm is roughly 26 degrees, shifting vertically in landscape orientation. In the same orientation a 9omm lens covers roughly 15 degrees, so the angular shift with a 10mm shift is about 7.5 degrees.
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Aha! Perfect, that's exactly what i hadn't been able to get my head round. Thank you!! :D
Originally posted by bear_music:
The Canon lenses both have an image circle of approximately 58.5mm. |
Ah, here again you've got information i couldn't find! How exactly did you find that out, by the way? Google failed me this time.
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10/06/2005 03:38:22 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by riot:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that in horizontal orientation your sensor is 20mm from top to bottom. Then your putative 10mm shift is half the sensor, right? Now with your 24mm lens your top-to-bottom angular coverage on landscape format is about 53 degrees. So your angular shift with the 24mm is roughly 26 degrees, shifting vertically in landscape orientation. In the same orientation a 9omm lens covers roughly 15 degrees, so the angular shift with a 10mm shift is about 7.5 degrees.
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Aha! Perfect, that's exactly what i hadn't been able to get my head round. Thank you!! :D
Originally posted by bear_music:
The Canon lenses both have an image circle of approximately 58.5mm. |
Ah, here again you've got information i couldn't find! How exactly did you find that out, by the way? Google failed me this time. |
Should be in the lens specs.
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10/06/2005 03:56:15 PM · #37 |
As an aside, although it would be extremely difficult or impossible to make an adpater for a native EOS lens to giev tilt/shift operation, there does exist this item, which uses a lens not designed for EOS system, and provides extreme tilt in any desired direction(though no shift). Don't have a heart attack at the price, LOL.
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10/06/2005 05:41:01 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by riot:
Ah, here again you've got information i couldn't find! How exactly did you find that out, by the way? Google failed me this time. |
I have Canon's printed specs on all their lenses. Part of my extended research when I was shopping for a new system...
Robt.
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10/06/2005 05:43:46 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
As an aside, although it would be extremely difficult or impossible to make an adpater for a native EOS lens to giev tilt/shift operation, there does exist this item, which uses a lens not designed for EOS system, and provides extreme tilt in any desired direction(though no shift). Don't have a heart attack at the price, LOL. |
Scary that! Very impressive for tilt though, but it's mainly shift i'm interested in (of course shift is a bit limited without tilt as well...)
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10/06/2005 05:50:46 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
As an aside, although it would be extremely difficult or impossible to make an adpater for a native EOS lens to giev tilt/shift operation, there does exist this item, which uses a lens not designed for EOS system, and provides extreme tilt in any desired direction(though no shift). Don't have a heart attack at the price, LOL. |
Couldn't find a price, but usually with adapters like these you lose infinity focus with normal lenses.
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10/06/2005 06:45:11 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by riot:
Ah, here again you've got information i couldn't find! How exactly did you find that out, by the way? Google failed me this time. |
I have Canon's printed specs on all their lenses. Part of my extended research when I was shopping for a new system...
Robt. |
Heh, wow... that sure makes me glad i chose eos too :)
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10/07/2005 11:51:33 AM · #42 |
This guy has a good page on using Canon TS lens. He owns all 3.
//www.noriravi.com/homepage/ArticleTSE90
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10/07/2005 12:10:27 PM · #43 |
That's a great site to demonstrate what you can achieve with a TS Lens. Particularly interesting is how you can make panoramas or get a full frame photo from a 1.6x crop camera...The Macros shots are pretty cool too. |
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10/07/2005 12:20:04 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
The Macros shots are pretty cool too. |
In a nutshell, close-up work is what these lenses were DESIGNED for. The closer in you work, the more problematic DOF is, and the more difficulty you have separating subject from BG if you stop down far enough to have the entire subject in focus. "Tilt" is a godsend for closeup work. But it takes time, lots of time. When we were doing shots of architectural models in the studio, we'd spend sometimes an hour or so just getting the camera angle and the tilt/shift right for a single shot.
Robt.
Edit to add: that applies especially to the 90mm TS lens. The wide angle TS lens is "designed" for architectural photography to eliminate converging verticals, primarily.
Message edited by author 2005-10-07 12:21:46.
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10/07/2005 12:49:15 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by doctornick:
The Macros shots are pretty cool too. |
In a nutshell, close-up work is what these lenses were DESIGNED for. The closer in you work, the more problematic DOF is, and the more difficulty you have separating subject from BG if you stop down far enough to have the entire subject in focus. "Tilt" is a godsend for closeup work. But it takes time, lots of time. When we were doing shots of architectural models in the studio, we'd spend sometimes an hour or so just getting the camera angle and the tilt/shift right for a single shot.
Robt.
Edit to add: that applies especially to the 90mm TS lens. The wide angle TS lens is "designed" for architectural photography to eliminate converging verticals, primarily. |
I've also used the 24 for very interesting product shots.
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10/22/2005 10:15:56 AM · #46 |
Yo Bear-
What exactly is 'optically different' about TS lens that make them more suitable to tilting and shifting?
-Thankx
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
By the way. Is it possible to make a tilt-shift adapter to fit a normal lens? I have a Soligor 28mm f/2.8 in T-Mount. And the T-Mount has 55mm of distance between the film plane and the rear element. Wondering if there might be tilt-shift adapter for T-mount lenses.. |
I'd be astonished if it were possible. These are not "normal" lens reverse-engineered to some sort of tilt/shift mount. The lens are optically different to allow this to happen.
Robt. |
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10/22/2005 10:28:02 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Grila:
Yo Bear-
What exactly is 'optically different' about TS lens that make them more suitable to tilting and shifting?
-Thankx
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
By the way. Is it possible to make a tilt-shift adapter to fit a normal lens? I have a Soligor 28mm f/2.8 in T-Mount. And the T-Mount has 55mm of distance between the film plane and the rear element. Wondering if there might be tilt-shift adapter for T-mount lenses.. |
I'd be astonished if it were possible. These are not "normal" lens reverse-engineered to some sort of tilt/shift mount. The lens are optically different to allow this to happen.
Robt. |
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They have a larger image circle
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10/22/2005 11:17:02 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Grila:
Yo Bear-
What exactly is 'optically different' about TS lens that make them more suitable to tilting and shifting?
-Thankx
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
By the way. Is it possible to make a tilt-shift adapter to fit a normal lens? I have a Soligor 28mm f/2.8 in T-Mount. And the T-Mount has 55mm of distance between the film plane and the rear element. Wondering if there might be tilt-shift adapter for T-mount lenses.. |
I'd be astonished if it were possible. These are not "normal" lens reverse-engineered to some sort of tilt/shift mount. The lens are optically different to allow this to happen.
Robt. |
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Sorry I missed this. Spaz is right; "normal" lenses are designed to throw an image circle such that the film/sensor rectangle fits snugly tangent at the corners within it. In other words, they are optimized for a specific format. TS lenses throw an image circle that's significantly larger than the film/sensor rectangle, and you can effectively "move" the viewing area within that circle.
Robt.
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10/22/2005 12:02:20 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Is it possible to make a tilt-shift adapter to fit a normal lens? I have a Soligor 28mm f/2.8 in T-Mount. And the T-Mount has 55mm of distance between the film plane and the rear element. Wondering if there might be tilt-shift adapter for T-mount lenses.. |
I purchsed one of those lenses to try out a possible tilt-shift with T mount. After a good bit of tinkering I was able to determine that, yes, you can develop a tilt shift that functions using T-mount lenses, but that the amount of movement you can generate is rather limited. So limited, in fact, that I sold off the lens and moved on to other options.
Here is what I found: The 12mm or so you get to play with is not enough to get much tilting or swinging, but you can get shifts easy enough. The problem with making a workable adapter is that if you mount the lens via an adapter sitting on the threads, you lose even more of your already limited space. In the end I decided that a highly engineered adapter for T-mount lenses could get a bit of workable movement, but that it would be just limited enough that I would always want a little more. (And for any real use I wanted an adapter that was sturdy enough to keep the camera and lens aligned as I set them, and not flopping about as with a lensbaby or other such adapter.)
In the meantime I discovered that there are macro and bellows systems availble with a great range of movements, and that if you mount a med-format lens on one of these along with your DSLR then you are in business. The problem is they are not cheap. So, building a functional adapter from just a front or rear standard is my next project. I'll have to get a rail and a devise a mount for the camera, but it should save me a good deal of dough over purchasing the whole system. |
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