Bush, USA, Iraq, Hurricane... - DPChallenge Forums

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/10/2005 07:25:53 PM · #426

Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by grandmarginal:

By the way, lazyness itself is not a condition, it's a symptom of something else.

condition...symptom... It is in many cases a result of WELFARE

I'm not sure what you mean?

Edit: Are you suggesting that someone on welfare will get used to and enjoy not doing anything? Maybe, you could be right, in some cases.
What I meant by it was that I don't think anybody really wants to do nothing not caring about not accomplishing anything. What I'm talking about are people who suffer from depression, anxiety, lack of self confidence. A lot of them seem pretty healthy and it's easy to just call them lazy. But the reality (and I know this now, because I've been through it) most of those people come to a state where lack of confidence, reinforced with chemical inbalance leads them to believe that whatever they'll do, they'll make things worst. I didn't feel good about being unemployed, I tried to hide it because a lot of people have prejudices against people with mental illness and what's the best way to hide it? Not to go out in public (and that includes work).

Message edited by author 2005-09-10 19:44:38.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

09/10/2005 07:45:51 PM · #427

Why does everyone think it so grand to donate to the suddenly disadvantaged, but sinful to support those disadvantaged over time by circumstances usually beyond their control?

Homeless moms on welfare are not "lazy" -- you have no idea how much work it is to collect welfare, even without taking care of kids. The majority of them get there when they are physically and financially abandoned by their male partners.

I dare any of you to give up your car, TV, telephone, and maybe your house; at the least empty your refrigerator, and then try and live on what the local welfare department provides. That would be a "reality show" I might watch, to see a bunch of out-of-touch Americans confront life in the underclass -- Survivor: Detroit or Who Wants To Be A Pauper would have the advantage of an available pool of several million experienced contestants.

Talk to me about CEOs and their $6000 shower curtains ...

Chinabun

Canon PowerShot SD990 IS

09/10/2005 07:59:44 PM · #428

i didnt see anyone call homeless moms on welfare lazy.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

09/10/2005 08:01:19 PM · #429

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Great post GeneralE!

Reminds me of a comment I once said in conversation about fundraising for people in other countrys... Some guy was urging me to donate money for starving kids in Africa. Not that they don't need help, please don't misunderstand me. But I simply asked him, why do we always have to help people far away when we have starving people in our own citys? Why not help your neighbor who needs it? and why does it always have to be with money, would it really help better if it's concentrated in one place with a big ammount to prove that hey! we did it? Why can't we start with taking care of people who are closer to us before we send money to someone or an organisation who we assume will actually use the money in the best way.
If tomorow morning, everybody would decide to offer help to their neighbor, right there, the world would be much better place.

Message edited by author 2005-09-10 20:05:03.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

09/10/2005 08:15:03 PM · #430

About the last post... I say this:

Instead of giving money to big organisations that become coorporate-like in the sense that they spend some of that money on publicity and offices and services for hotlines and all this... Why not give it directly to the people right next to you when you know that ALL of the money will be used by those who need it most.

rox_rox

Canon EOS-20D

09/10/2005 08:18:39 PM · #431

Having come from a welfare family and lived in some impoverished neighborboods, I can say that it's impossible to pigeonhole welfare recipients. They run the gamut from honest and hard-woking to downright criminal, and yes...many are lazy.

Welfare has become a treatment of the symptom, not the cause. The major causes are lack of education, abuse, inequality, substance abuse and mental illness (and usually a combination of many). If our society were to address these issues with the same fervor that we address problems in foreign countries (and with the same financial expenditure), the need for the welfare system would gradually diminish exponentially.

Were we to become aggressively proactive now, this country would reap boundless human rewards in the generations to come. Otherwise, we are sinking ever more deepely into the abyss.

Message edited by author 2005-09-10 20:19:27.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/10/2005 11:16:05 PM · #432

Government confiscating legally-registered weapons? Where's the NRA when you need them? I suppose this would be the logical first step in any Bush Administration plan to declare martial law and take over the country permanently, a move I'm guessing his new Supreme Court would declare perfectly OK ....
=========================
Blackwater Mercenaries Deploy in New Orleans

By Jeremy Scahill and Daniela Crespo
t r u t h o u t | Report

Saturday 10 September 2005

New Orleans - Heavily armed paramilitary mercenaries from the Blackwater private security firm, infamous for their work in Iraq, are openly patrolling the streets of New Orleans. Some of the mercenaries say they have been "deputized" by the Louisiana governor; indeed some are wearing gold Louisiana state law enforcement badges on their chests and Blackwater photo identification cards on their arms. They say they are on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and have been given the authority to use lethal force. Several mercenaries we spoke with said they had served in Iraq on the personal security details of the former head of the US occupation, L. Paul Bremer and the former US ambassador to Iraq, John Negroponte.

"This is a totally new thing to have guys like us working CONUS (Continental United States)," a heavily armed Blackwater mercenary told us as we stood on Bourbon Street in the French Quarter. "We're much better equipped to deal with the situation in Iraq."

Blackwater mercenaries are some of the most feared professional killers in the world and they are accustomed to operating without worry of legal consequences. Their presence on the streets of New Orleans should be a cause for serious concern for the remaining residents of the city and raises alarming questions about why the government would allow men trained to kill with impunity in places like Iraq and Afghanistan to operate here. Some of the men now patrolling the streets of New Orleans returned from Iraq as recently as 2 weeks ago.

What is most disturbing is the claim of several Blackwater mercenaries we spoke with that they are here under contract from the federal and Louisiana state governments.

Blackwater is one of the leading private "security" firms servicing the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. It has several US government contracts and has provided security for many senior US diplomats, foreign dignitaries and corporations. The company rose to international prominence after 4 of its men were killed in Fallujah and two of their charred bodies were hung from a bridge in March 2004. Those killings sparked the massive US retaliation against the civilian population of Fallujah that resulted in scores of deaths and tens of thousands of refugees.

As the threat of forced evictions now looms in New Orleans and the city confiscates even legally registered weapons from civilians, the private mercenaries of Blackwater patrol the streets openly wielding M-16s and other assault weapons. This despite Police Commissioner Eddie Compass' claim that "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons."

Officially, Blackwater says it forces are in New Orleans to "join the Hurricane Relief Effort." A statement on the company's website, dated September 1, advertises airlift services, security services and crowd control. The company, according to news reports, has since begun taking private contracts to guard hotels, businesses and other properties. But what has not been publicly acknowledged is the claim, made to us by 2 Blackwater mercenaries, that they are actually engaged in general law enforcement activities including "securing neighborhoods" and "confronting criminals."

That raises a key question: under what authority are Blackwater's men operating? A spokesperson for the Homeland Security Department, Russ Knocke, told the Washington Post he knows of no federal plans to hire Blackwater or other private security. "We believe we've got the right mix of personnel in law enforcement for the federal government to meet the demands of public safety." he said.

But in an hour-long conversation with several Blackwater mercenaries, we heard a different story. The men we spoke with said they are indeed on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and the Louisiana governor's office and that some of them are sleeping in camps organized by Homeland Security in New Orleans and Baton Rouge. One of them wore a gold Louisiana state law enforcement badge and said he had been "deputized" by the governor. They told us they not only had authority to make arrests but also to use lethal force. We encountered the Blackwater forces as we walked through the streets of the largely deserted French Quarter. We were talking with 2 New York Police officers when an unmarked car without license plates sped up next to us and stopped. Inside were 3 men, dressed in khaki uniforms, flak jackets and wielding automatic weapons. "Y'all know where the Blackwater guys are?" they asked. One of the police officers responded, "There are a bunch of them around here," and pointed down the road.

"Blackwater?" we asked. "The guys who are in Iraq?"

"Yeah," said the officer. "They're all over the place."

A short while later, as we continued down Bourbon Street, we ran into the men from the car. They wore Blackwater ID badges on their arms.

"When they told me New Orleans, I said, 'What country is that in?,'" said one of the Blackwater men. He was wearing his company ID around his neck in a carrying case with the phrase "Operation Iraqi Freedom" printed on it. After bragging about how he drives around Iraq in a "State Department issued level 5, explosion proof BMW," he said he was "just trying to get back to Kirkuk (in the north of Iraq) where the real action is." Later we overheard him on his cell phone complaining that Blackwater was only paying $350 a day plus per diem. That is much less than the men make serving in more dangerous conditions in Iraq. Two men we spoke with said they plan on returning to Iraq in October. But, as one mercenary said, they've been told they could be in New Orleans for up to 6 months. "This is a trend," he told us. "You're going to see a lot more guys like us in these situations."

If Blackwater's reputation and record in Iraq are any indication of the kind of "services" the company offers, the people of New Orleans have much to fear.

-----

Jeremy Scahill, a correspondent for the national radio and TV program Democracy Now!, and Daniela Crespo are in New Orleans. Visit www.democracynow.org for in-depth, independent, investigative reporting on Hurricane Katrina. Email: jeremy@democracynow.org.

Message edited by author 2005-09-10 23:16:50.

frychikn

Olympus C-5050Z

09/10/2005 11:40:44 PM · #433

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Would you be willing to take yourself up on your own dare?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/11/2005 12:13:08 AM · #434

Originally posted by frychikn:

Would you be willing to take yourself up on your own dare?

I've done it in the past, so I know what it's like -- why would I voluntarily do it now? I'm too old and tired to do it recreationally.

... Oh, did you mean discussing $6000 shower curtains? That I'd have to speak from logical extrapolation, as I have no personal experience in that arena ...

Message edited by author 2005-09-11 00:14:56.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/11/2005 12:27:12 AM · #435

Short interjection referring back a ways in the thread:

Federal disability benefits are NOT welfare. When we work, we all contribute to Sical Security, and one of the main components of the Social Security program is Disability Insurance, which exists precisely so that members of the workforce who become disabled do not find themselves honeless and destitute through no fault of their own.

It's an INSURANCE program, people, and you've been paying into it all your life. The program is soemtimes abused, sure, but it's NOT welfare.

Robt.

Chinabun

Canon PowerShot SD990 IS

09/11/2005 12:28:44 AM · #436

if your referring to my post?? i didnt say it was welfare, i pay for disability insurance every two weeks myself. but its not all SS because my aunt has never worked, so where does her money come from? actually you dont even have to answer that. the few people who have responded and have problems with my post are not reading what i actually wrote. so just forget it. you cant over come an issue if you dont actually read what was first written. it's pointless.

Originally posted by bear_music:

Message edited by author 2005-09-11 00:36:38.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/11/2005 12:35:12 AM · #437

No, I wasn't referring to you in specific, nor your aunt. I just had a sense that there was some confusion in the thread. I've been subject to that sort of confusion myself; I collect diability, and I've had people act as if this puts me in the same category as a welfare abuser, and it pisses me off.

Just a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular. I can't comment to your aunt's situation as I have no information beyond the little you've revealed here :-)

Robt.

frychikn

Olympus C-5050Z

09/11/2005 10:24:00 AM · #438

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by frychikn:
Would you be willing to take yourself up on your own dare?

I've done it in the past, so I know what it's like -- why would I voluntarily do it now? I'm too old and tired to do it recreationally.

... Oh, did you mean discussing $6000 shower curtains? That I'd have to speak from logical extrapolation, as I have no personal experience in that arena ...

When you say "I've done that" do you mean you have actually and voluntarily given up the trappings of "the good life" to see how the "other half" lives or was it circumstances beyond your control. If you did indeed do it voluntarily, did you have any kind of "safety net" in place, such as parents, friends, relatives, etc. to quickly "get you out" if the experiment proved a little too painful.

The flippant remark about the curtains was not necessary but also not surprising. If I wished to discuss shower curtains I would have mentioned them in my post. That kind of leftist rhetoric gets very tiresome.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/11/2005 11:00:32 AM · #439

Originally posted by frychikn:

The flippant remark about the curtains was not necessary but also not surprising. If I wished to discuss shower curtains I would have mentioned them in my post. That kind of leftist rhetoric gets very tiresome.

humor (n.)

1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/11/2005 11:13:19 AM · #440

Originally posted by frychikn:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
I dare any of you to give up your car, TV, telephone, and maybe your house; at the least empty your refrigerator, and then try and live on what the local welfare department provides. That would be a "reality show" I might watch, to see a bunch of out-of-touch Americans confront life in the underclass -- Survivor: Detroit or Who Wants To Be A Pauper would have the advantage of an available pool of several million experienced contestants.

Talk to me about CEOs and their $6000 shower curtains ...

Would you be willing to take yourself up on your own dare?

What is the point of this question? GeneralE is pointing out the meager income for welfare recipients, how difficult it is to receive, and the large gap between rich and poor. He is NOT saying that anyone should be living in poverty. Nothing in his statement was flippant, just a bit sarcastic, perhaps, to emphasize his point.

frychikn

Olympus C-5050Z

09/11/2005 11:25:03 AM · #441

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by frychikn:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
I dare any of you to give up your car, TV, telephone, and maybe your house; at the least empty your refrigerator, and then try and live on what the local welfare department provides. That would be a "reality show" I might watch, to see a bunch of out-of-touch Americans confront life in the underclass -- Survivor: Detroit or Who Wants To Be A Pauper would have the advantage of an available pool of several million experienced contestants.

Talk to me about CEOs and their $6000 shower curtains ...

Would you be willing to take yourself up on your own dare?

What is the point of this question? GeneralE is pointing out the meager income for welfare recipients, how difficult it is to receive, and the large gap between rich and poor. He is NOT saying that anyone should be living in poverty. Nothing in his statement was flippant, just a bit sarcastic, perhaps, to emphasize his point.

I myself would never dare other people to do something which I would not be willing to do myself. I was curious as to whether the issuer of this somewhat self-righteous dare felt the same way. THAT is the (rather obvious) point of my question.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

09/11/2005 11:31:48 AM · #442

Originally posted by frychikn:

That kind of leftist rhetoric gets very tiresome.

To be fair, much of what I hear from those who align themselves as "right" or "left" is rhetoric (both on this site and everywhere else). I think the whole polarization of your country is based on rhetoric and a lot more would be accomplished if 'lefts' and 'rights' were to realize that. Celebrate some grey areas for goodness sake and talk about issues instead of thinking that it's one camp shouting at the other.

I mean, the media is much to blame for this..."red state"? "blue state"? Give me a break.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

09/11/2005 11:58:08 AM · #443

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by frychikn:
That kind of leftist rhetoric gets very tiresome.

To be fair, much of what I hear from those who align themselves as "right" or "left" is rhetoric (both on this site and everywhere else). I think the whole polarization of your country is based on rhetoric and a lot more would be accomplished if 'lefts' and 'rights' were to realize that. Celebrate some grey areas for goodness sake and talk about issues instead of thinking that it's one camp shouting at the other.

I mean, the media is much to blame for this..."red state"? "blue state"? Give me a break.

I totally agree with your comment. But to stand somewhere in the middle, well you have to stand instead of leaning. A lot of folks find that difficult to do unfortunately.

Message edited by author 2005-09-11 12:02:45.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

09/11/2005 02:28:26 PM · #444

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Riggs:
Cant people PLEASE just Link entire articles.

Some links require registration at the target site to read them.

If I exerpted "relevant" parts of the article, I'd surely be accused of "manipulating" or "distorting" it to suit my viewpoint, so I usually put in the whole thing.

If I cut/paste a whole article (rarely more than a standard column) I will have read the whole thing first.

Right on all counts, Paul. But let's examine your excuses:

First, you say that some links require registration at the target sites to read them. Well, I don't know which "them" you are referring to. If the "sites", then yes, some do. If the "articles" then it would only take a quick "Google" search to find the same article on a "free, no-registrationrequired site". For example, I took the liberty of going back and looking at each "large" post ( large being defined as any quoted material exceeding one visable page on my monitor ) and found this:

You, GeneralE, quoted the complete text of an editorial in the New Orleans Times-Picayune on 09/06 at 10:21 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the CNN website: here

You, GeneralE quoted LARGE excerpts of text from an Op/Ed piece by Frank Rich in the N.Y. Times on 09/06 at 10:44 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the Common Dreams website: here

gingerbaker quoted the complete text of an editorial in the Los Angeles Times on 09/06 at 10:45 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the Los Angeles Times website: here

You, GeneralE, quoted the complete text of an opinion piece by Bob Herbert in the New York Times on 09/06 at 10:54 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the Speigel Online ( English ) website: here

You, GeneralE, quoted the complete text of an opinion piece by Paul Krugman in the New York Times on 09/06 at 11:03 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the e-TaiwanNews website: here

MadMordegan thought it appropriate to quote your complete quote of the Times-Picayune editorial on 09/06 at 12:53 p.m.

theSaj quoted nearly the entire AP news item on 09/07 at 09:47 a.m. that was available here

gingerbaker quoted the complete text of an opinion piece in the Daily News on 09/07 at 06:19 p.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the Daily New website: here

gusto quoted the complete text of an article by columnist Barbara J. Stock on 09/07 at 07:00 p.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the mensnewsdaily website: here

gingerbaker quoted the complete text of a piece attributed to Goldy at HorsesAss on 09/09 at 09:24 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the DailyKos website: here

In that same post, gingerbaker quoted a LARGE excerpt of an article in Time Magazine, but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on Time's website: here

You, GeneralE, quoted the complete text of an opinion piece by Maureen Dowd in the N.Y. Times on 09/10 at 12:04 a.m., but the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the Gaypasg website: here

And then, even AFTER someone requested that folks reduce the amount of quoted material, you, GeneralE, still posted the complete text of a Truthout Report on 09/10 at 11:16 p.m. when the complete text was available ( no registration ) on the Truthout website: here

In summary, NONE of the large quoted articles was NOT available on a free, no-registration-required site. Hence, my opinion that many are just too lazy to cut & paste pertinent portions of large articles.

I note that of the 13 LARGE quoted postings, YOU made 6, gingerbaker made 4 , and MadMordegon, theSaj, and gusto made 1 each. To my reckoning, that makes it Liberals,11; others,2. No surprise there, as far as I am concerned.

Your excuse about being "afraid" to post relevant parts is, in my opinion, one that even you don't believe, considering some of your other posts. BTW, I originally said "pertinent" not "relevant".

And I'm glad that YOU state that you read the whole of any quoted material you post, because I doubt that your detractors do ( read YOUR entire quoted material, that is ) - as I said, I certainly don't. I feel that if you really wanted me to read the entire article, you could at least entice me by posting something to "whet my appetite" as it were.

I do note that you didn't respond to my charge d): that D & L are the ones paying to store yet another copy & distribute the voluminous material that is freely available elsewhere ( stored elsewhere, and distributed at their own expense ).

Canon EOS-20D

09/11/2005 02:36:00 PM · #445

Bugmenot.com is a nice resource for those who don't want to register.