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08/22/2005 08:13:55 AM · #1 |
I've done my first cursory glance at the nude submissions and several things have become very obvious. One is that my submission has had 117 votes and 4 comments. Why is that? I think the main reason is that there have been a lot of adolescent boys (and girls) who have been chomping at the bit to see nekked pictures and have flown through them and cast votes without really SEEING the picture. This was to be expected and is reflected in my relatively low score.
With this mostly done now, I imagine we can get down to the true business of voting on the submissions. The other thing that has been very apparent to me is that there are two very distinct subcategories in this particular challenge. One is study of technical details ie.) lighting, form, composition, etc. The second and less obvious is the subcategory of a nude that "tells a story".
My submission like many of the others falls into the latter category. I would imagine that many of the others like mine are also receiving low scores from the "glance and vote" users who are more focused on the pin-up submissions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the pin-up submissions at all. There are some very beautiful submissions in the "technical details" category.
My challenge to everyone is to not just look at the submissions, but really try to SEE them. Photos of nudes are very intimate by nature and those that are not obviously studies of form, lighting, and composition are trying to convey a deeper and sometimes very intimate message. I challenge everyone to look beyond the surface and try to see what that message is. I realize many of us already do this and my challenge is mainly to those who just "glance and vote". Nudes by their nature many times will try to rebel against standards of society or open the viewers eyes to something that is not readily accepted.
There are only a few entries in this particular challenge so there is not much reason for everyone who votes to not comment on the image. Those of us who entered the challenge have shared something very intimate with the viewer, it would be appreciated if the courtesy could be returned. Sorry for such a long post, but I just felt we should all be reminded of some of these issues. For those of you who read the entire thing. Thank you!
-Lee |
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08/22/2005 08:15:56 AM · #2 |
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08/22/2005 08:18:22 AM · #3 |
| Especially on the lower scores, help us to underestand why. |
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08/22/2005 08:36:58 AM · #4 |
The thing I noticed first was the plethora of dark pictures. I understand wanting some measure of intimacy with the dark, but it didn't help some of them.
As for the voting, but not commenting...I've finished voting, but haven't commented on any yet, as I don't have time to comment. I'll be going back to do that at a later time.
I admit, I found some of the pictures to be great. I only gave out three fours, the rest were above that. Yes, I even gave the humorous pictures a score of at least four (it was different and thinking out of the box. |
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08/22/2005 08:40:37 AM · #5 |
| Thanks for expressing exactly what I feel. I worked for hours for 2 days to get my shot. I felt it was extremely artful. I was so proud and my first comment really insulted me saying it looked like a snapshot. There's no way I could do that by just going "click." Why I'm taking it so personally? Because, as you said, nudes is an intimate study, no matter how it is presented. It was in focus and quite clever in my mind's eye. Sheeesh, I wish I'd get over it. I had anticipated last night for 5 days and to be shut down feels like a slap in the face. I guess that's what creative people go through all the time whether it be a written song, a painting, a poem, etc. Ok, I'm going to go buy another box of Kleenex. Judy |
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08/22/2005 09:00:34 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Jutilda:
Thanks for expressing exactly what I feel. I worked for hours for 2 days to get my shot. I felt it was extremely artful. I was so proud and my first comment really insulted me saying it looked like a snapshot. There's no way I could do that by just going "click." Why I'm taking it so personally? Because, as you said, nudes is an intimate study, no matter how it is presented. It was in focus and quite clever in my mind's eye. Sheeesh, I wish I'd get over it. I had anticipated last night for 5 days and to be shut down feels like a slap in the face. I guess that's what creative people go through all the time whether it be a written song, a painting, a poem, etc. Ok, I'm going to go buy another box of Kleenex. Judy |
Judy, I wouldn't worry about it. As I stated when I started this post, I have a relatively low score, but am not taking it personally. Just consider the source. Many (not all) who voted in the first few hours did not take the time to adequately look at the submissions and the message was probably lost in a cursory glance. I expect your scores will improve as the week progresses (they usually do). As the more serious photographers review your photo over the next 7 days, your message will be received by others who can share your view. This will be reflected in your score. In the meantime, chin up and hold off on refreshing (if you can) for a day or so. Rest assured, your score will reflect that. Kudos!
-Lee |
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08/22/2005 09:15:29 AM · #7 |
| I had a chance to go through the images and place my vote. As usual,some of the shots were appealing and some were very.......hmmmm.......not. I did not enter this challenge but suspect that a great number of submissions were the first nudes ever photographed by the entrants. I also suspect that alot of submittors satisfied their need to be "exhibitonists", if I may be so bold. Yeah....I will be. I looked for clearly original imagery that has been done well. Whether it is a landscape, car, kitten or whatever, it had better draw me in otherwise it is just another generic photo. In this case, many must have submitted not only their images but themselves to be judged. That choice comes with consequences. Good luck to all who made that choice. |
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08/22/2005 09:20:17 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by NathanW:
I admit, I found some of the pictures to be great. I only gave out three fours, the rest were above that. Yes, I even gave the humorous pictures a score of at least four (it was different and thinking out of the box. |
Why would a humorous shot get a lesser score if the shot is of good quality? Makes no sense to me. A nude DOES NOT have to be a stunning male/female body in a great pose to be a good photo. |
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08/22/2005 09:20:45 AM · #9 |
I spent the whole week talking myself in and out of doing it. I had the image in my head and finally decided to go for it. Score lower than expected. I feel the attractiveness factor is in play here. I'm no Chippendale's model.
I shot it the way I did for a reason. So I guess a post challenge edit to my notes is in order.
I will get around to commenting. Just need to wait till I'm home and have time, later in the week.
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 09:22:05. |
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08/22/2005 10:38:52 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
I had a chance to go through the images and place my vote. As usual,some of the shots were appealing and some were very.......hmmmm.......not. |
Do nudes always have to be "appealing"? Are nudes of overweight, or "older" individuals "appealing"? Define appealing. Does appealing mean provocative? A nude can be a great image without being provocative.
Originally posted by Ivo:
I did not enter this challenge but suspect that a great number of submissions were the first nudes ever photographed by the entrants. I also suspect that alot of submittors satisfied their need to be "exhibitonists", if I may be so bold. Yeah....I will be. |
Some submittors may have been satisfying some type of exhibitionist desire, but how does that come into play? Aren't most professional nude models exhibitionists by nature? Judging by most of the pre-challenge discussion, I would dare say that very few people fall into this category though. Most people used available models. Some used spouses, and some did self portraits. This requires a great deal of courage and wouldn't you agree that those who show that type of courage at least deserve comments on the photos that they spent so much time composing!
Originally posted by Ivo:
I looked for clearly original imagery that has been done well. Whether it is a landscape, car, kitten or whatever, it had better draw me in otherwise it is just another generic photo. In this case, many must have submitted not only their images but themselves to be judged. That choice comes with consequences. Good luck to all who made that choice. |
Consequences?!? This site by its very nature judges the work of photographers. Any one who entered this challenge is very aware of the scrutiny their submission will undergo. I wouldn't necessarily call that a consequence. That word to me has a very negative connotation. The point you raise about a generic photo is a very interesting one. Does a photo that shows excellent lighting, wonderful form and excellent composure qualify as generic if it's a pose that's been done a bazillion times? What about those that do not follow the norm for a nude photo? Even if the photo shows someone with an "unappealing" body type? If it gets your attention but in an "unappealing" manner, does that mean the photo has no significance? Would it then receive a lower score? |
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08/22/2005 10:53:48 AM · #11 |
For me, my voting is based on the quality of the photo and the thought that was put into it. Body type has nothing to do with it. Does it have an interesting composition? Does it draw me in or show some emotion (this would include good humor)? Is it it a technical study of the human form? These are some of the things that I'm looking for. Poor lighting, bad focus, static compositions, stuff like might bring a score down for me. But body type will most definetly not. But when you think about it, all these things I listed would and should pertain to any challenge.
I also added a little bump just for the bravery of entering the challenge. It takes guts. :-)
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 10:54:21.
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08/22/2005 11:10:03 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by jenesis:
For me, my voting is based on the quality of the photo and the thought that was put into it. Body type has nothing to do with it. Does it have an interesting composition? Does it draw me in or show some emotion (this would include good humor)? Is it it a technical study of the human form? These are some of the things that I'm looking for. Poor lighting, bad focus, static compositions, stuff like might bring a score down for me. But body type will most definetly not. But when you think about it, all these things I listed would and should pertain to any challenge.
I also added a little bump just for the bravery of entering the challenge. It takes guts. :-) |
I agree, but honestly, how many people do you think are voting that way? |
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08/22/2005 11:17:29 AM · #13 |
I would hope most. I would hope the vast majority of this site is mature enough to handle a challenge such as this. But maybe that's just me being hopeful.
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08/22/2005 11:30:43 AM · #14 |
it is my hope too that people vote the quality of the photo not what the person's size or sex is in this challenge...its sad to say that the best photos will not get the chance at a ribbon because of this...and poorly lit, badly post processed or out of focus will score higher thanthose that are done well
Originally posted by jenesis:
I would hope most. I would hope the vast majority of this site is mature enough to handle a challenge such as this. But maybe that's just me being hopeful. |
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08/22/2005 12:02:21 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by ldowse:
Do nudes always have to be "appealing"? Are nudes of overweight, or "older" individuals "appealing"? Define appealing. Does appealing mean provocative? A nude can be a great image without being provocative. |
To me, an image has to be appealing to capture my interest and if it happens to be of a nude, it has to be an appealing nude photo. I, for one, do not find obesity in of itself visually appealing though an obese subject as part of a well done photo may make the photo appealing. You may or may not agree. As well, I do not find the human body near as beautiful when it is aged as it is when it is in its prime. Photo quality, originality and editing are huge when presenting artistic nude photos. If you wish to debate this, you will.
Originally posted by ldowse:
Some submittors may have been satisfying some type of exhibitionist desire, but how does that come into play? Aren't most professional nude models exhibitionists by nature? Judging by most of the pre-challenge discussion, I would dare say that very few people fall into this category though. Most people used available models. Some used spouses, and some did self portraits. This requires a great deal of courage and wouldn't you agree that those who show that type of courage at least deserve comments on the photos that they spent so much time composing! |
If the entrants primary goal was submit a creative nude photo, was the best decision to submit one of themselves or was it a convenient way to exhibit themselves through a nude challenge? Only they know. One thing I do know is that the image will fetch a comment because of it's overall appeal to me. If it does not appeal to me, I will generally not comment. In addition, how would you suggest I comment on someone's bravery unless I was certain the photo was a self-portrait? Maybe those should have been clearly marked so recognition may be factored into the overall score.
[/quote]
Originally posted by ldowse:
Consequences?!? This site by its very nature judges the work of photographers. Any one who entered this challenge is very aware of the scrutiny their submission will undergo. I wouldn't necessarily call that a consequence. That word to me has a very negative connotation. The point you raise about a generic photo is a very interesting one. Does a photo that shows excellent lighting, wonderful form and excellent composure qualify as generic if it's a pose that's been done a bazillion times? What about those that do not follow the norm for a nude photo? Even if the photo shows someone with an "unappealing" body type? If it gets your attention but in an "unappealing" manner, does that mean the photo has no significance? Would it then receive a lower |
score? [/quote]
Definition of Consequence: That which follows something on which it depends; that which is produced by a cause; a result. I chose that word because it is appropriate.
The last part...............hmmmm......no, that's just silly. |
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08/22/2005 12:05:48 PM · #16 |
A "good photo" by definition is a photo that is interesting to look at. The dynamic of photography is a game played by three parties:
a) photographer
b) subject
c) viewer
If you are missing any of these three, you don't have a good photo. Having no photographer, it's obvious you don't get a photo. ;-) . If you don't have a viewer, then the photo might be exquisite but what's the point of its existence? (Just like the old saying: if a tree falls in the wood and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound when it hits the ground?).
As for the viewer, he might be missing for two reasons: the photo is either not visible (no one can access it, see it, etc.), or the photo itself fails to attract the attention of the viewer, and the viewer leaves.
If the viewer leaves, then there is a very good chance it's because the subject of the photo failed to capture the viewer's interest.
Sorry for the lecture. I have a point to make with all this in relation to the NUDE challenge and nude photography in general.
To make a good nude photo, it takes more than nudity. The same rules as any other photograph applies here. For instance, flower photography takes more than shooting a flower to make it interesting to the viewer. The difference is that the flower will not take it personally if someone says "man, that is a very uninteresting flower to look at".
The thing is, the flower may be very uninteresting to look at simply because the photographer failed to light it properly, or to compose the picture properly, or both.
Photography is about a good subject. "Good subject" is relative of course, and what makes a good subject could be discussed to death. I'm sure we agree though that if the photo keeps the viewer's interest, then the subject is a good one. Nudes raises the bar in the challenge to keep the viewer's interest in that nudity is something that we usually prefer to look at when the subject is pleasing to the eye. That doesn't mean the model has to be a bombshell. The photo can be a study of the human form, the line that makes the body, or a mise en scene that tells a story or emotion. Remember thought that the obective is to please the viewer, to keep the viewer's interest. And to do so, lighting and composition play a crucial part.
This is where I beleive so many photos get ranked very low in the current nude challenge. Lighting and composition were unfortunately lacking to create the interest in the pictures. It would be easy to blame kids for rating pictures lower because they are looking for nekked pics, or any viewer for that matter for not understanding the "real" beauty of the nudes.
But the reality is, in most cases with nudes that score low, the photographer is to blame for poorly lighting the model, and failing to show the model in an way that will keep the viewer interested in the picture. And that my friends, is even more difficult to accept when the subject is an autoportrait... because we tend to take it like a personal attack on our looks, instead of our skills as a photographer.
My two cents.
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08/22/2005 01:00:30 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by ldowse:
there are two very distinct subcategories in this particular challenge. One is study of technical details ie.) lighting, form, composition, etc. The second and less obvious is the subcategory of a nude that "tells a story".
My submission like many of the others falls into the latter category. I would imagine that many of the others like mine are also receiving low scores from the "glance and vote" users who are more focused on the pin-up submissions.
My challenge to everyone is to not just look at the submissions, but really try to SEE them. Photos of nudes are very intimate by nature and those that are not obviously studies of form, lighting, and composition are trying to convey a deeper and sometimes very intimate message. I challenge everyone to look beyond the surface and try to see what that message is.
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My own image "tells a story" - its not doing too bad (6.2 right now). But almost all the comments are complaining about something that is crucial to the image imho. They are not looking at the image as a whole (or so it would appear in accordance to the comments) but just for the nudity. I hope that doesnt give too much away. I agree, the vote was fast and hevily last night, i do hope people were sorting and not placing finials because it was too quit to take a good look at the photos.
As DrJones just said subject is a dynamic of a photo - but it is subject within context. In tell a story photos the context is critical to understanding the image.
Its not all about T & A boys and girls :D
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 13:02:12. |
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08/22/2005 01:07:21 PM · #18 |
Martin - let me begin by expressing my utmost respect for your work. I believe you are one of the best erotic photographers I've seen. With that said, I would like to address a few things you brought up.
Originally posted by DrJOnes:
Photography is about a good subject. "Good subject" is relative of course, and what makes a good subject could be discussed to death. I'm sure we agree though that if the photo keeps the viewer's interest, then the subject is a good one. Nudes raises the bar in the challenge to keep the viewer's interest in that nudity is something that we usually prefer to look at when the subject is pleasing to the eye. That doesn't mean the model has to be a bombshell. The photo can be a study of the human form, the line that makes the body, or a mise en scene that tells a story or emotion. Remember thought that the obective is to please the viewer, to keep the viewer's interest. And to do so, lighting and composition play a crucial part.
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As a professional photographer of "bombshells", you have a definite advantage over most of us who have entered the challenge. I stated early on that my goal was to place better than your entry. I am not griping about this advantage, just merely stating the obvious. Besides, it adds a new level to the competition. When I started this post, I was attempting to open debate on the two distinct photo types that you have mentioned in your post. My point was that it's easy to look at a "bombshell" and decide whether or not you like the image. For example, is it technically correct? If so, is it visually appealing? If so... High Score! Easy... done.... next photo please.
That leaves the second type of photo... The one that tells a story or conveys an emotion. That is a more difficult type of photo to judge (IMHO). I also think that the large number of early votes reflects an overall lack of studying the images. If you go to a gallery, you will study an image and let the image "speak" to you. When browsing the photos in this gallery, you glance, vote, and go on (not you personally, but you get my meaning). The photos that were meant to convey a message have a tendency to get overlooked in the process. For example, my submission has many facets that I attempted to convey in the title as well as model expression, lighting, and pose. There are also some very subtle features to the image that are very crucial to the emotion I am trying to portray. On the surface it may look like "just another nude", but in reality the purpose of the photo goes much deeper. It's not a high glamour shot, but the fact that the model is rather attractive does give the image that "feel". This was not the intent, but I'm rather pleased with the overall duality of the image.
My submission has not received any comments on lighting choice, composition choice, or form choice. If the image is technically OK, then why the so-so score? The most telling answer to that question came from a single comment that read something to the effect... "I don't get it". OK, now we're getting somewhere... Study the image harder, you'll get it. If not, then I've failed to appropriately convey my message and have failed as a photographer. That's OK too... I'm here to improve my skills. I can't help but feel that if there was more time spent on the image however, the viewer would get it.
Open for debate. |
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08/22/2005 01:12:40 PM · #19 |
| Thanks Dr Jones. That's the most lucid post I've ever read about photography on this site. It's a valuable guideline for judging any picture for any challenge. |
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08/22/2005 01:18:04 PM · #20 |
How do you get a voter to study the image? I ask only because I think the answer is found in what Dr. Jones said. Dr. Jones may have an advantage in his model, but it's his technical expertise and imagination combined with the model that always makes him the favorite. His ideas are as great as his model. And his execution is usual as good as it gets.
Which is why we all want to beat him. Just like we want to beat Jacko in a bug challenge or David in a landscape. |
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08/22/2005 01:22:08 PM · #21 |
i just read all the nitty gritty of this post and i have a few points of self reflection
1. I am a nude model for other artists (thus apparently an exhibitionist) so vote me down
2. I took a self portrait so vote me up
3. I am not a "bombshell" i have small tits and a tummy so vote me down
4. I specifically composed the image vote me up (but im getting voted down for it hahah)
If only i was " not in my prime" (thoug some could say im not since im not taut tight and titt'd) you could vote me down.
People are starting to forget this is a photography website not a is this hot or not website.
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 13:22:45. |
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08/22/2005 01:42:54 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
People are starting to forget this is a photography website not a is this hot or not website. |
None of my scores were given with any consideration to the 'look' or 'appeal' of the model. |
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08/22/2005 01:43:46 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by hopper:
How do you get a voter to study the image? |
Its all about that elusive 'wow' factor. If you can make a voter stop at your image, or just at least an extra few seconds you have accomplished this first step. Best advice i can offer from my own personal experience is that basic art theory goes a long way in photography.
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08/22/2005 01:44:40 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Originally posted by mesmeraj:
People are starting to forget this is a photography website not a is this hot or not website. |
None of my scores were given with any consideration to the 'look' or 'appeal' of the model. |
I was referring to this: an image has to be appealing to capture my interest and if it happens to be of a nude, it has to be an appealing nude |
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08/22/2005 01:46:57 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by hopper:
How do you get a voter to study the image? I ask only because I think the answer is found in what Dr. Jones said. |
I am not sure about that. What he said may be true or even 100% correct. I don't know. But what I do know is the viewer has to care enough in general to look at the images for longer than the WOW factor or how long it takes to bang out a vote on the keyboard and wait for the screen to pass the next image.
After looking at the two past nudes challenges, I think people were/are expecting to see a 'bevy of beauties' and some have even posted in threads that a nude is all about the art and that humorous or out of the box shots either don't belong or are being scored lower. With that kind of thinking does it matter if they look at the images longer or not? It is not going to change the way they vote.
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 13:48:43. |
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