Canon EOS 10D Questions - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/25/2003 01:06:19 AM · #2

Hey John,

I don't own one, but there are examples of unaltered photos from the cam at www.dpreview.com, as you may be aware. With the 10D, and any DSLR, for that matter, you need to consider lenses as well. I wouldn't be happy with a 1Ds, let alone a 10D, if all I could afford for it was a cheap Sigma. Add L glass and you've got a different beast entirely. This lens conundrum was the breaking point that led me to get the F717, as I couldn't afford lenses which would outperform the F717's without going way over budget...

I'd like to see some 10D shots with that F/1.0 50mm L...anyone ponied up yet?

Message edited by author 2003-05-25 04:20:10.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

05/25/2003 01:08:21 AM · #3

I agree with the comparison on the sony... the sony quality right out of the cam would be better than the 10d without an L lens... I'm not so convinced that it is not better than the L lens either....

I expect to do sharpening after the photos are made though... that's a given...

jimmythefish

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/25/2003 01:17:11 AM · #4

I think the key for me about the 10D is the incredibly noise-free image at high ISO, and the dramatically increased control over DOF. I've seen some images of action in low light that the F717 simply cannot do. Everyone screams NeatImage for the F7x7 but I personally don't like the look, and you can never recover information that was never there to begin with. Little things like being able to fine-tune saturation and tone are important, too. I'd love to get rich tones straight out of the camera.

I was shooting some track and field tonight and I'd kill for a camera which doesn't have a blackout during the burst shots.

It all adds up...that dust on the sensor thing freaks me out, though. I get everything dusty...

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

05/25/2003 01:18:44 AM · #5

the increased control over dof is one of my primary reasons for wanting to upgrade... i just wanna make sure I can still get a good quality image out of the cam... I'm spoiled on the quality of the sony 707... it makes phenomenal images witout much help required from photoshop...

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

05/25/2003 01:33:48 AM · #6

These are straight out of camera..

Wildflowers

However, you have to keep in mind that this is RESIZED and the breezebroweser software automatically sharpens them. 10D is really designed to be tweaked later, especially the sharpening process.

As far as image quality goes -- it will blow away any consumer digicams straight out at the resolution. You will find that you can see things that you can't at resolution with DSLR's in general that you can't with digicams. It doesn't mean that it can'be tweaked more. The noise level on this camera is incredibly low.

The best part of the 10D is the RAW format, which allows you to adjust the EXPOSURE later as long as highlights are not blown.

The images will appear softer than most digicams though, so a bit of sharpening might be needed.

This is what I do now with my shots:

1. I set Adobe RGB which basically means the contrast/saturation are set at default and ithink the SHARPENING is literally none. I do this even for JPEG shots, which requires me to convert to sRGB if i want to post on the web.
2. I usually shoot RAW if i can for post processing adjustments (very useful for adjusting white balance and exposure)
3. I set SHARPENING to NONE, i'd do this in photoshop with Miranda's Custom Sharpen Pro (probably one of the few actions he has worth its weight in gold, as well as his ISO noise reduction action)

In short, you can shoot it out of the camera (when I was shooting sRGB,i set saturation to +1 and sharpening to +1, and sometimes contrast to +1 -- the 10D tries to make it fairly bland because it will allow better post processing), but you will get the best results with RAW and post camera processing.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

05/25/2003 01:47:19 AM · #7

This is a 100% crop, straight from the camera, no resizing, no levels, and no sharpening. Just crop, then 'save a copy.'

look at the detail on the nose (where focus was locked). it's' nothing short of amazing, esp at this magnification.

Max

jimmythefish

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/25/2003 02:02:50 AM · #8

I'm highly convinced that if you spent a day with a 10D and that 28-70 f/2.8L, you could happily use your F707 as a wheel block.

joshua

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/25/2003 02:51:51 AM · #9

one thing i noticed right away was the 10d seems to make the unsharp mask useless...sharpness i have gotten out of the cam has been so much better than i have gotten before with my cp4500

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Nikon

05/25/2003 03:31:11 AM · #10

John,

Globally it's admitted and it's the concensus that the images out of the box are more soft that from a PS camera where more processing is done in camera. The S2pro is the same and this guarantees you the best quality because things done 'in camera' cannot be undone. there is 4 levels of sharpness and contrast in the 10D that can be done in camera. Personnaly I set them low and do them in photoshop. For exemple if you increase the contrast in camera, you increase the risk of blown out pixels.

I guess you read the review on dpreview. The image out of the box is usually soft because it has not been preprocessed that much. Being soft out of the box give you room for better picture on the long run (which is probably what you want if you go the 'print' route).

Bottom line is .. you will need USM on a almost systematic basis.

It's a different world and you know that. I love the DOF control (my duo tulip shot for exemple) even if sometime you would like to have more DOF without stepping down (DOF will be 1/4 of what you have on the 7x7 probably).

Due to price consideration and except if you target a specific nikon lens, the 10D is the almost obvious choice on Dslr. Until the next one ? probably but still ... Canon did the perfect thing, maybe people realizeit now aith this box, take the D60 which was/is ver good, and improve on it, keeping the 6MP size.

inherent to that size is the sizes of the tiff. that's an average of 10MB per tiff .. not unsignificant (hard drive, archiving, ...)

Everybody seems to be happy with it here ... we will be happy to have you in team 10D like jacko says ;-)
I have not been able to produce a ribbon with it .. but that's more the guy than the camera !! we all know that ;-)

Lionel

Vipermike

Nikon D80

05/25/2003 03:49:19 AM · #11

Well said Lionel.

Jean

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/25/2003 07:34:00 AM · #12

I am in the process of purchasing a Canon EOS10D, but I am unsure as to which lens to purchase with it. Any advice will be welcome.

dadas115

Canon EOS-1000D Rebel XS

Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM

05/25/2003 10:06:32 AM · #13

John,

I have found that yes I do get pictures that are fine right out of the camera with no post processing, but they can almost always be improved by doing a little post processing. Usually the adjustments that I made are some saturation adjustments. The shots from the 10D can tend to be less saturated than most other digital cameras. For the most part they look more natural this way, but sometimes a little extra saturation looks nice. I also tend to up the contrast a little. I keep the camera set to low contrast to prevent blown highlights, then I go back and boost it up to my liking in photoshop. The last thing I tend to do is apply some USM. 10D pictures can take a lot of USM before they start looking over-sharpened. Thatâ��s usually about all I ever do. Here is are some links to some pictures that I posted right after I got my 100mm f/2 USM. They are right out of the camera with no post processing. I know they arenâ��t very flattering crops but you can get some idea what to expect right out of the camera.

//image.pbase.com/u21/dadas115/upload/16937226.Img_4261.jpg

//image.pbase.com/u21/dadas115/upload/16937240.Img_4265.jpg

//image.pbase.com/u21/dadas115/upload/16937247.Img_4307.jpg

//image.pbase.com/u21/dadas115/upload/16937250.Img_4326.jpg

Here is a 100% crop with no post processing using a very low rated lens. It is the 35-80 f/4-5.6 III. This is probably the worst lens that Canon makes, I bought it for $20 used. This shot is with that lens at 68mm with a 35mm Kenko extension tube. This one could use some sharpening if you want to view it at 100% but it gives you an idea of what the camera can do with the crummiest of glass on it.

//image.pbase.com/u23/dadas115/upload/17002996.fly100.jpg

Here is the same picture but the full frame (no crop at all). The only post processing done on this one was that it was scaled down to 640x480. No sharpening was applied.

//image.pbase.com/u23/dadas115/upload/17003002.flyFull.jpg

Finally, here is the most boring picture of all. There is no post processing, just 100% crop right out of the camera. The top left is from the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM hand held at f/5.6 and 400mm FL. This is a crop from the center of the frame, below is a crop from the same shot from the bottom left corner of the frame. On the right is the same thing from the 300mm f/4L IS with 1.4x II TC.

//image.pbase.com/u27/dadas115/upload/16819918.BrickTest1.jpg

I hope you find these helpful,

Jimmythefish, my entry for the time challenge was shot using the EF 50mm f/1.0L USM at f/1.0. It wasnâ��t shot on a 10D, but instead a 1D.

I am afraid I am not very good at HTML, you will have to copy and paste the links to get them to work :(.

Greg

Message edited by author 2003-05-25 10:09:44.

dadas115

Canon EOS-1000D Rebel XS

Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM

05/25/2003 10:13:24 AM · #14

If anyone has any questions about any specific EF lens please feel free to ask, I have owned almost every one of them.

Greg

05/25/2003 11:22:59 AM · #15

I think you're confusing RESOLUTION versus sharpness. 10D images will resolve much more than most digicams -- but its "sharpness" at the highest resolution is still "soft" compared to, say the Canon G2 (which is already softer than Sony F707)

The truth is, the contrast through Canon's lenses, especially the L's, will be much better than any of the consumer cams. And the ability to have contrasty images from the lenses is what makes a photo look sharp. For example, if i were doing portraits with Canon, I can basically take an image straight from camera without any sharpening at all (sharpening set to -2) and it'll look great already. For more "landscape" related stuff, i'd tend to sharpen a bit. Fred Miranda's Custom Sharpen Pro is awesome, it wont' create USM noises that you see with straight USM.

Also, one thing that people shouldn't forget is that they're looking at a 6 megapixel image. If you were to print it on 5x7 or 8x10 paper versus say a 4 megapixel camera, it'll still look sharper even without processing because of the extra resolution. For WEB presentation though especially if cropped, it'll need some sharpening.

Originally posted by achiral:

one thing i noticed right away was the 10d seems to make the unsharp mask useless...sharpness i have gotten out of the cam has been so much better than i have gotten before with my cp4500

05/25/2003 11:35:15 AM · #16

Originally posted by dadas115:

If anyone has any questions about any specific EF lens please feel free to ask, I have owned almost every one of them.
Greg

I can help as well (nut not on the experience side) , I have the tests performed by Chasseur d'images in their lab test. I have all the tests for Canon lenses and Sigma lenses . and chasseur d'image is pretty serious. they do test on a test bench.
Anyhow ....

Something as well, now with the not so expensive memory card (I got the lexar 512 ultra plus for 130$ I think), you can set high sharp and high contrast for the jpg if you want to and still have the RAW file for further process. I think pag already said that. The pb is that ... through the cable it's USB1 so it takes a while for 512MB.

Go team 10D ;-) ;-)

05/25/2003 11:42:11 AM · #17

Originally posted by Jean:

I am in the process of purchasing a Canon EOS10D, but I am unsure as to which lens to purchase with it. Any advice will be welcome.

Jean, the question is too short, it depends on a lot of thing including budget.

You cannot go wrong with the Canon 28-125 IS. A nice lens, in SLR world that's 50-200 so very nice range except if you are a 'wide angle' type of photographer that's not going to work very much for you. BUt it's a good lens and around 400$. Plus with it you do not reach 1:1 ration in macro but you get close ... Plus the IS does help

I know some people like the canon 24-85 the difference is significant on the wide angle side but I do ont know how good.

everybody get the 50mm1.8 plastic but sharp and 69$ could be useful in low light.

I know I am looking to complete my range (bit not all at the same time, I am not sure I truely 'need' them ;-) to :
> canon 75-300 IS, peole are happy with it, I think Jacko here as one
> sigma 15-30 450$ or the tokina 19-35 for 180$ (Mag I think has one and has posted some shot recently. it an amazing lens for its price
> canon 100 2.8 macro. maybe not sure

voilÃ ... ask us, but search as well all the forum canon slr on dpreview.com

Lionel

matt betea

Nikon D100

05/25/2003 12:07:07 PM · #18

Why would you use the camera to transfer photos? (Talking about DSLR people here). I got a firewire card reader from Lexar. I couldn't imagine trying to transfer a 1gb card via usb. I believe they also make usb2.0 readers too. You'll need a firewire card or usb2.0 card though, those range from $10-$40.

05/25/2003 12:11:48 PM · #19

Matt, just because I am lazy to buy one ;-) at home I could do that. When I travel I do not have a firewire or USB2 one the laptop.

05/25/2003 12:20:05 PM · #20

Use a compact flash reader :) I bought a PCMCIA adaptor from Fry's for $12, best $12 i have ever spent on the camera. Now 256 meg compact flash downloads in less than 4 minutes. Before that the camera will take about 20 minutes.

Originally posted by lionelm:

Originally posted by dadas115:
If anyone has any questions about any specific EF lens please feel free to ask, I have owned almost every one of them.
Greg

I can help as well (nut not on the experience side) , I have the tests performed by Chasseur d'images in their lab test. I have all the tests for Canon lenses and Sigma lenses . and chasseur d'image is pretty serious. they do test on a test bench.
Anyhow ....

Something as well, now with the not so expensive memory card (I got the lexar 512 ultra plus for 130$ I think), you can set high sharp and high contrast for the jpg if you want to and still have the RAW file for further process. I think pag already said that. The pb is that ... through the cable it's USB1 so it takes a while for 512MB.

Go team 10D ;-) ;-)

05/25/2003 12:21:42 PM · #21

Try the 70-200mm F4 L lens too. Really nice lens for the money. F4 is a bit high but with the low noise in the 10D, you can simply crank it up to 800 ISO and it'll work just fine. In outdoor daylight shots, it works really well. The focus is incredibly fast.

Originally posted by lionelm:

Originally posted by Jean:
I am in the process of purchasing a Canon EOS10D, but I am unsure as to which lens to purchase with it. Any advice will be welcome.

Jean, the question is too short, it depends on a lot of thing including budget.

You cannot go wrong with the Canon 28-125 IS. A nice lens, in SLR world that's 50-200 so very nice range except if you are a 'wide angle' type of photographer that's not going to work very much for you. BUt it's a good lens and around 400$. Plus with it you do not reach 1:1 ration in macro but you get close ... Plus the IS does help

I know some people like the canon 24-85 the difference is significant on the wide angle side but I do ont know how good.

everybody get the 50mm1.8 plastic but sharp and 69$ could be useful in low light.

I know I am looking to complete my range (bit not all at the same time, I am not sure I truely 'need' them ;-) to :
> canon 75-300 IS, peole are happy with it, I think Jacko here as one
> sigma 15-30 450$ or the tokina 19-35 for 180$ (Mag I think has one and has posted some shot recently. it an amazing lens for its price
> canon 100 2.8 macro. maybe not sure

voilÃ ... ask us, but search as well all the forum canon slr on dpreview.com

Lionel

05/25/2003 12:32:26 PM · #22

[quote=paganini]Try the 70-200mm F4 L lens too. Really nice lens for the money. F4 is a bit high but with the low noise in the 10D, you can simply crank it up to 800 ISO and it'll work just fine. In outdoor daylight shots, it works really well. The focus is incredibly fast.

Yes I read wonderfull things about this on the f4 70-200 ... like L lens quality in a non L lens ! That was my original choice .. but then I read good about the 75-300 and the IS is probably usefull there. Well .. that 2 good choices in that area !!!!
Plus at f4 you can use a 1.4x converter which you cannot do the the 75-300 (autofocus would not work probably). Well you can always do manual.

Message edited by author 2003-05-25 12:33:25.

rll07

05/25/2003 04:39:01 PM · #23

[quote=paganini]The best part of the 10D is the RAW format, which allows you to adjust the EXPOSURE later as long as highlights are not blown.

how do you do this???
Photoshop? convert to tiff or can you work on raw file? thanks

05/25/2003 05:01:49 PM · #24

to convert the raw and adjust again the white balance ..... , you need to use a software than can handle canon 10D rwa file like :
- canon browser (given with the cam)
- breezebrowser (from breezesys.com)
- photoshop 7.01 with the addtional raw plug-in (although I did not see that many people satisfied with that ecept that you ccan automate your workflow in photoshop)
Lionel

rll07