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07/27/2005 10:25:22 AM · #1 |
First off, I think the concept is great. (Kudos to aboutimage). I think the information being made available it great. I even think it's worthy of it's own forum.
(SC, I really would like to see the DPC Mentorship Program receive it's own forum area.)
But I am also bothered by certain aspects of this program. Namely, it's implementation. I've sat by silently. PM'd once or twice but essentially the gist is "read-only"...and for the most part I've respected that.
However, after near a dozen so programs and seemingly no opportunity to get involved you start to feel left out and in truth a touch jaded. There is no common guideline or instruction as to how to participate.
However, there is no clear understanding for participation. No manner for which a member can view upcoming courses and apply for participation. And I know some of us feel that every course is announced full and we've had no clue how to get on board. This is frustrating as a novice/amateur especially when a topic comes up that is directly related to one's major focus and an area that one needs improvement in. And sure, we can glean from the threads. Even engage in the suggested exercises. But there is a lot ot be said concerning feedback and group participation.
To me, something needs to be done differently. Else it will feel like a "clique" and some will feel like they are forever excluded. I understand that an instructer might only have 6 slots. And two of those might be reserved for some friend who wanted a course on x topic. But I think "open slots" need to be handled openly. For instance...a list of courses opening, number of open slots, a 7-10 day enrollment period, followed by a random lottery if there is an overflow of interested parties.
I also suggest that a thread with the rules, how to get involved in a course, etc. be linked to from the "header" post of each course. This will help facilitate people's involvement in such a system. Cause it's all been rather confusing and lends one to feel left out. Like a closed circle. (And I don't believe that is the intent at all.)
So, where as I am rather excited by the concept I'm finding myself increasingly bothered by the implementation.
*shrug*
Here's to hoping we can just improve things to make it all operate more smoothley and not to leave some feeling excluded and left out.
Sincerely,
Jason "The Saj"
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07/27/2005 10:46:55 AM · #2 |
Excellent ideas Jason...esp. the mentorships having their own forum area.
"However, there is no clear understanding for participation. No manner for which a member can view upcoming courses and apply for participation. And I know some of us feel that every course is announced full and we've had no clue how to get on board. This is frustrating as a novice/amateur especially when a topic comes up that is directly related to one's major focus and an area that one needs improvement in. And sure, we can glean from the threads. Even engage in the suggested exercises. But there is a lot ot be said concerning feedback and group participation."
I never understood how these groups were formed...and still don't really...they just seemed to appear one day. When I first noticed them my first thought was " wow...this is ripe for a bit of clique-y-ness "
Maybe we can have more than one of the same mentorship categories? Like more than one "portrait" mentorship for example? I think it would be interesting to see different perspectives on the same subject...because there is no one right way to do something.
Like you I think the mentorships are a fantastic idea, but, something isn't quite right. You have brought up something I think is a concern to quite a few people but who are maybe a little afraid to bring up said concerns...no one wants to be a "party pooper"...but I do think something needs to be addressed, thanks for bringing this up Jason. |
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07/27/2005 11:06:44 AM · #3 |
| The way these groups were formed were based on first-come, first-served basis. It was announced as an idea a couple of Saturday nights ago and people either volunteered to be mentors or requested to be in certain groups that people stated they would mentor. I agree with you that many people probably feel left out of this and that is unfortunate and probably not fair. Don't forget that this is not an officially sanctioned/supported function of the DPC website or its adminitrators, but has been put together loosely with flexible rules by members. Any member of DPC can form their own group(s) with as many members as they want. It's not a university/college type of set up where a list of courses are posted for people to register in. |
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07/27/2005 11:12:47 AM · #4 |
Jason, sorry about asking you to remove a post from the gig mentor thread... hope you understood about the fact that I thought it was unfair on the people who are on the waiting list.
I never approve of cliquey behaviour, it's unfortunate that these 'closed' groups are on an open forum and I can understand your feelings.
However, I do feel you jumped the gun a bit having only just sent me a couple of pms which I didn't have a chance to respond to before you leapt onto the forum. I will post some of your comments which were helpful onto the mentor thread, and thanks for your time on those.
You are more than welcome to start a thread asking for people to look at your gig photos, I wouldn't mind a pm asking me if I had time to have a look.
However, I really can't add to the amount of people I currently have in the mentor thread as I really have to make an effort to find the time to comment on all the posts as it is. I have had one person drop out, and I will be moving someone from the waiting list as soon as I have a chance.
If you add your name to the waiting list, I'm sure you wouldn't have to wait too long before there was a space for you... I'm making quite tough demands on those who want me as a mentor!
I really don't think DPC is cliquey though, there are plenty of people here who are experienced and talented gig photographers, and if you posted a question or request for critiques on the forums you'd get plenty of replies, including from me if I caught it.
To sum up, register interest, be patient and you'll be included.
Cheers,
Bob
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 11:13:36. |
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07/27/2005 11:17:33 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by rktdesign:
Maybe we can have more than one of the same mentorship categories? Like more than one "portrait" mentorship for example? I think it would be interesting to see different perspectives on the same subject...because there is no one right way to do something. |
You know, that's a good idea. I didn't think along those lines but really why can't you have two macro courses in a short time period. Especially, if there is a big interest. Of course, contingent on "an instructur" being willing to do so.
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Jason, sorry about asking you to remove a post from the gig mentor thread... hope you understood |
No problem Bobster...and you're still listed as one of my favorite photographer's. But it just brought to the front burner feelings I've been having and I decided to address them - not to see the programs stopped but to improve them and see them flourish.
;-)
No hard feelings....whatsoever....
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 11:38:28. |
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07/27/2005 11:19:14 AM · #6 |
"The way these groups were formed were based on first-come, first-served basis. It was announced as an idea a couple of Saturday nights ago and people either volunteered to be mentors or requested to be in certain groups that people stated they would mentor. I agree with you that many people probably feel left out of this and that is unfortunate and probably not fair. Don't forget that this is not an officially sanctioned/supported function of the DPC website or its adminitrators, but has been put together loosely with flexible rules by members. Any member of DPC can form their own group(s) with as many members as they want. It's not a university/college type of set up where a list of courses are posted for people to register in."
My thoughts...
Many people never got to see such an announcement. Nor felt they had access to said groups. Quite a few of us are very conflicted because we love the idea, we understand the guidelines but have been feeling "how do we get involved".
"Don't forget that this is not an officially sanctioned/supported function of the DPC website."
I have not, which is why I believe they must truly be open and accessible by all members. I pay a fee to be a member - that fee comes with priveledges. (That includes the right to post to the forums for which one has access to.) I think the concept of DPC Mentorship program is great. And I don't mind seeing the threads and I believe the posting guidelines make them much more functional. But IMHO the use of DPC forums for such should be contingent on the basis that access and availability be open to all members. And I believe that is the intent of the program.
"...but has been put together loosely with flexible rules by members"
This is what I am addressing. We need to adjust the system so that everyone can attempt to access the resources. One can understand if a class is full. Or if they didn't make the lottery selection. We understand that a mentor can only handle a handful or two of students. But we want to be able to at least have an opportunity to try to be one of those. Otherwise, if people do not feel such opportunity you will find they will cease to heed the suggested guidelines.
I posted in BobsterLobster's mentorship thread...because it was a topic I was very strongly inclined too. And I was at the point where I said - "what's it matter - I'm never going to get into one of these mentorship courses - they're always full by the time I first hear about them. Might as well risk a post and see if perhaps my over-zealousness might open a door for me to be allowed to join in."
DPC Mentorship is a great concept. And with just a few minor changes I think it will do quite well. A good model for these would be "Halo 2". One would announce (host) a mentorship class. They might have three friends they want in. (So three private slots.) and are willing to have up to 8 in the class. So it's posted "Photography Fragmatch's (5 public slots) - RSVP by August 1st. The mentor receives 12 RSVPs. So he sees that two people are actively enrolled in another course. So he takes the 10 remaining and randomly picks 5 and informs them of the selection and the others that they will be placed on an alternate list.
I think this, and a link in the header (first post) that points to the "DPC Mentorship Program" thread with a list of current, past, and future programs. Would greatly open up the feel of accessibility for many site members.
(Please realize, I am not trying to stop the programs but to facilitate them by expressing what quite a few members I believe are feeling. And endeavoring to provide solutions to remedy those situations.)
- Jason
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 11:38:15. |
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07/27/2005 11:20:55 AM · #7 |
| All you have to do is start one - I'm sure many many people would jump on board. Do you want to be the teacher? Perhaps you could approach one of your favorite macro photographers to lead another group. Of course there can be two macro group running concurrenly. |
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07/27/2005 11:48:41 AM · #8 |
It is not an easy endeavor for "pupils" to start a course without an instructor. My skills are far from at a level to instruct anyone (heck...I just bombed the last three challenges).
And I don't think PM'ing several dozen ribbon winners in the hopes of "would you be our mentor" is really the right way to go about it. Namely, cause the "lesson" should be of interest. I guess, one could post a thread "Hey, would like someone to start a mentorship course on "bird photography"...or..."objects in motion"." But this would fill up the boards with a lot of junk posts and they would like sink to the bottom within an hour or two to be forever unseen.
Hence, my support of a new section for DPC Mentorship Program. A main thread for course information. A second thread for posting "course requests". And then all the course threads.
:)
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07/27/2005 12:06:07 PM · #9 |
you know, while the instructor is important it's the assignments that really help the most. you could start one without an instructor (if you'd be a willing leader) and hope to get one soon.
Just make sure you are all working on the same thing at the same time. It's your different capabilities that will further your photography goals and the critiques which the other students give will be just as valuable.
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07/27/2005 12:06:43 PM · #10 |
| I agree with your organizational suggestion. However, that is exactly how these mentorship groups got started. One pupil asked for such a course and there was such a huge demand that half a dozen groups formed and mentors stepped up. Now there is a new one based on a Freeman Patterson book without an "expert", just a bunch wanting to experiment. again suggested by a "pupil". |
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07/27/2005 01:24:42 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
"Don't forget that this is not an officially sanctioned/supported function of the DPC website."
I have not, which is why I believe they must truly be open and accessible by all members. I pay a fee to be a member - that fee comes with priveledges. (That includes the right to post to the forums for which one has access to.) I think the concept of DPC Mentorship program is great. And I don't mind seeing the threads and I believe the posting guidelines make them much more functional. But IMHO the use of DPC forums for such should be contingent on the basis that access and availability be open to all members. And I believe that is the intent of the program. |
I'll disagree with you here ... the reason I originally suggested that (for now) they go in the Out-And-About section was that these are essentially private meetings using the forum space, and as such they can be open to whomever they want. If I start a forum thread about photographing my party, that doesn't mean everyone at DPC is automatically invited.
Now, if it was officially sponsored ny DPC, we'd have an obligation to make the process open and fair.
For now, I think we have to wait a few weeks and see if these groups flourish or fail, and what kinds of problems they present, before we start "fixing" them--I'd rather fix several problems at once than to be continually tinkering instead of doing. I understand your frustration with the way these came down--somewhat like a speed challenge though; not everyone gets to enter those either.
And, as someone pointed out, these were essentially formed by students with a common need who found a mentor, not so much the other way round. If there's a particular group doing something you really wanted to do, go ahead and start up another--I'm pretty sure there's a lot of other folks left out of the initial groups who'd join.
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 13:25:29. |
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07/27/2005 01:34:20 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by "GeneralE":
If I start a forum thread about photographing my party, that doesn't mean everyone at DPC is automatically invited. |
Actually, the general thought is that if you posted such a thread in a public forum...everyone is invited. And rest assured you will have numerous comments and replies (so long as said party bore something interesting).
Originally posted by oOWonderBreadOo:
you know, while the instructor is important it's the assignments that really help the most. you could start one without an instructor (if you'd be a willing leader) and hope to get one soon.
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I do agree the assignments are one of great value. But it does help to have guidance so as not to have a bunch of novices who are all making the same mistakes creating a blind-leading-the-blind scenario. While at the same time I think many of us desire energy of a group dynamic.
Just saying a fair number of members were feeling disenfranchised because they were not familiar with how the system worked becoming involved in a group. And in truth, most everything covered can probably be found on a web-tutorial somewhere. I think it's very much the idea of group dynamics that appeals to many of us.
And in truth, some of us are not confident enough to go at it alone...
Anyways, I've given some feedback for what I think would improve matters. It would appear there is much opposition. I disagree with some of the fundemental statements. And do believe that there is a requirement of a certain level of open opportunity by their existence on DPC. It is my hope to see DPCM's grow...but it is likewise my hope to be able to be involved, and others like me.
- Jason
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 13:40:59. |
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07/27/2005 03:00:40 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by oOWonderBreadOo:
you could start one without an instructor (if you'd be a willing leader) and hope to get one soon. |
If you build it, he will come... [1]
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07/27/2005 03:06:59 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Anyways, I've given some feedback for what I think would improve matters. It would appear there is much opposition. I disagree with some of the fundemental statements. |
I don't think there's much disagreement with your basic statements or feelings on the matter, but more on how rapidly any change should happen.
These groups have been going for a week or two ... are we to suddenly issue a DPC edict that they are all null and void, and that they must abondon their current work, disband, and re-form under some new rules?
I don't think we have to go that far ... I think just asking future groups to specify a sign up period and hold a lottery, instead of a first-come, first-served approach, would solve most of the problem.
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 15:07:21. |
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07/27/2005 03:58:42 PM · #15 |
No..., nor was I implying such. I was adament about not disbanding them.
Just including a link to perhaps a single thread explaining how they work, how to get involved in them, and enough info so people don't feel like they have to be in some secret society to get in....or feel they have to start a whole new concept. (As anyone who's been in programming understands the dangers of branch-forking.)
Aboutimage does this to a fair degree on his personal profile. But if you don't know to click on and view his profile then you don't find out these things.
A general thread, linked to from the various DPCM threads I believe would greatly help this concept take flight.
"I don't think there's much disagreement with your basic statements or feelings on the matter, but more on how rapidly any change should happen."
And it does feel like there is a lot of disagreement with my basic statements. Cause if there were not I think the gist of your response would be "Those are some good ideas. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to implement some of them. This is a new venture so we're still working kinks out. But your right...we don't intend to exclude anyone from getting involved. In truth, we didn't expect this to take off quite as well as it has nor appeal to so many."
I am not opposed to the DPCM threads nor do I want to see them gone. Rather, I think they're one of the most wonderful things I've seen...but am frustrated that over the past couple of weeks I've had no idea how to get involved and interact within them.
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 16:04:58. |
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07/27/2005 04:15:40 PM · #16 |
Saj,
Sorry you feel a bit left out. I can imagine how that feels. I don't mind commenting on your photos and sharing what I have learned. I understand what you are saying and I feel really lucky to have gotten into the group that I have, but it was by chance, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. No one has ment to exclude you in any way. |
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07/27/2005 04:45:28 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
And it does feel like there is a lot of disagreement with my basic statements. Cause if there were not I think the gist of your response would be "Those are some good ideas. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to implement some of them. This is a new venture so we're still working kinks out. But your right...we don't intend to exclude anyone from getting involved. In truth, we didn't expect this to take off quite as well as it has nor appeal to so many." |
This was in the body of my first response. Doesn't it express, at least approximately, what you say here?
"For now, I think we have to wait a few weeks and see if these groups flourish or fail, and what kinds of problems they present, before we start "fixing" them--I'd rather fix several problems at once than to be continually tinkering instead of doing. I understand your frustration with the way these came down--somewhat like a speed challenge though; not everyone gets to enter those either." |
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07/27/2005 05:01:45 PM · #18 |
It does...
It just gets confusing when it seems like there is like two sides (let's fix it all at once in an organized way) and (there's no organization it's just happening). Just gets confusing...sorry.
:| |
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07/27/2005 05:02:04 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Anni:
Saj,
Sorry you feel a bit left out. I can imagine how that feels. I don't mind commenting on your photos and sharing what I have learned. I understand what you are saying and I feel really lucky to have gotten into the group that I have, but it was by chance, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. No one has ment to exclude you in any way. |
I'd totally appreciate that... :) |
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07/27/2005 05:16:08 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
seems like there is like two sides (let's fix it all at once in an organized way) and (there's no organization it's just happening) |
You're quite right, here. There are those two sides, and here's why (at least my estimation of it):
Side #1 - No organization, just happening: That's pretty much the gist of the Mentorship programs, at the moment. I've tried to organize them and keep tabs on who's in what group. I got over 200 PM's in the first 3 days of the programs, and it took a lot of personal time organizing everyone and getting them started. Still, it was worth it. They're all rolling along happily.
Side #2 - Let's fix it in an organized way: Yes! Let's do that!! You can't imagine (well, maybe you can) how much work it was for me to organize all this. And while the level of organization we have now is adequate, I understand how people like you who are not part of the groups could feel like it's difficult to find your way in.
But -- if you were the programmer for DPC, would you go changing the code every time some nut like me got a wild hair up their behind and started new things like this? No way! You'd wait to see whether it flourished or died before you changed the fundamental architecture of the site to accomodate it more fully.
Until DPC decides what, if anything, to do with them, the groups are chugging along quite nicely. ANYONE can follow along and learn from what's going on. I really don't understand when I hear people complain that they're "exclusionary". Exclusionary would mean taking the program to another location off DPC. It certainly would have annoyed fewer people, but what benefit would it have provided the DPC'ers? In moving the opportunity to learn to another location, you'd be moving the main reason most of us are here.
If more groups are needed, and more mentors are needed, all you need to do is raise your voices! There's really nothing to it. I raised mine and this whole crazy Mentorship thing just kind of "happened". We're now up to 12 groups, 15 mentors, and about 100 students. I'm not counting the new one that just started around the book. You want more? Just make them happen. I'll be more than happy to track them as well.
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 17:31:27. |
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07/27/2005 05:54:15 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by Anni:
Saj,
Sorry you feel a bit left out. I can imagine how that feels. I don't mind commenting on your photos and sharing what I have learned. I understand what you are saying and I feel really lucky to have gotten into the group that I have, but it was by chance, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. No one has ment to exclude you in any way. |
I'd totally appreciate that... :) |
Ditto for me. You've commented on a couple of my challenge photos and I've always found your critiques to be helpful. If you ever want comments, I'm not sure what I can offer in the way of instruction, but I don't mind giving out comments.
I'm also curious....granted, I think you can learn a lot from those who have professional training....but I think there are many people here who have more of an eye for photography than they are willing to admit. I'd bet that if we started a group and shared photos that all had the same theme/assignment, that we'd be able to help each other out quite a bit with our own critiques as well! |
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07/27/2005 06:03:31 PM · #22 |
| The "mentors" of these groups are not necessarily professionals, or even different than any other member of the group, other than their willingness to take on a high degree of organizational responsibility. It probably would have been better to use a term like "facilitator" but it may be too late now. |
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07/27/2005 08:05:12 PM · #23 |
Let me start by saying that I did not try to join any of the mentorships groups. I am more of a loaner than a joiner for some things.
That said, I hope I can comment a little more objectively than others.
I think that the mentorship groups thing is a great idea. Kudos to aboutimage for introducing the idea to the community. They can facilitate the learning that is the basic reason-for-being of this site. And they can help people focus on the areas that are most interesting to them. The generosity of the group leaders in sharing their expertise and giving of their time is admirable, to say the least. Many dpc users are going to gain a lot from the program.
We could spend a lot of time debating whether they are cliques, or exclusionary. The people who are in the groups will tend to say no, they are not cliqueish. The people who want to be in the groups but are not will say yes, they are cliques. If you have a group that is known to the general community but the membership is limited so that some who want to can not get into the group, and there is a waiting list, my mind calls that an exclusion. So I say yes, they are fairly called cliqueish. Even though the word clique normally carries a negative connotation, that may not necessarily be the case here. And these are not the first such groups formed by dpc users, just the most recent; and more public than some others.
It is too early to begin changing the format but not to early to begin discussing possible improvements. Thanks to the Saj for starting this thread, and for bringing to the fore many things that lots of us were thinking about but hadn't mentioned yet.
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07/27/2005 08:21:04 PM · #24 |
I have been following this discussion with great interest because I am currently mentoring the Exposure Mentor Group. I am not a professional photographer, a gifted amature at best, with a decent portfolio of challenge entries, 2 top 10's but no ribbons. I have learned a lot here and I'd like to give some of that back.
I won't speak for the other mentors but I have a few points to make:
1) I am feeling my way along. There are no maps of undiscovered country and this mentoring approach is clearly undiscovered country. As the groups finish their task, we will have learned a lot about what works, what doesn't and how it can be improved. Lets learn these lessons and incorporate them in to Mentoring II if it's worth while to continue this.
2) This has turned into a lot of work for me. I have spent possibly 40 hours of my own personal time over the last 2 weeks planning the flow of what we are doing, inventing exercises, commenting on the photos the folks have posted. I have had considerable help from one of our folks Britannica. I am not complaining. I have the time, it is fun for me, and I am learning as much as the others.
3) I have received PMs from folks who want to participate and as vacancies occur, I have been able to extend the experience to new folks willing to participate and learn. But I have just so much time and really can't support a larger group. I have also encouraged those I can't accomodate to follow the thread, do the exercises and PM me with questions. Some are doing this ... so the mentorship reaches further than just the "members."
I think it is important to get various points of view about this. I think it is important to learn from what we are doing. And I think it is important to improve how this works and possibly institutionalize it if Drew and Langdon agree.
Having said all that, I have noticed a positive change in the tone of the forum posts over the last few weeks. This place seems more positive to me. It seems more focused on self development to me. And I am feeling that the overall tension and level of whining may be declining. Maybe I'm wrong, but if that's right ... isn't that a GREAT thing for DPC and it's members?
Message edited by author 2005-07-27 20:32:43. |
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07/27/2005 08:37:54 PM · #25 |
| David (aboutimage) has started a wonderful thing here on DPC and all of the mentors have followed up with great programs. I am a member of one, but follow a couple of others. I don't feel a need to be a member to read and practice in the lessons. I know the mentors are donating their time and I am content to stay on the fringes and learn what I can staying out of the way. No problems, I just hope that Davis gets his just dos one day. This program is a great thing, we can all learn from it being a member or not. |
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