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10/15/2002 02:56:06 AM · #1 |
Thanks to all for encouraging meâ€Â¦
Though I am happy that I had a close finish (Pizza Hut), I feel that there is some disconnect between the comments that I got and the final finish.
So I feel that we have a good opportunity here to re-look at the voting process. I am really inspired to see that some of us who have found there own creative ways to do justice to the photographer and to have better clarity in their own mind while voting (To name a few, we have Autool, Focus, Sulamk). The criteria chosen by them are:
Technically correct , exposure, focus, saturation , contrast. 6
Good composition. 5
Tells a story or creates a mood 6
Impact to the viewer 5
Relevance to the Challenge 6 (Sulamk)
7 Overall
9 Challenge Met
7 Color (tints, casts, bleeds)
7 Exposure, Lighting (Shadows, reflections)
8 Focus & Clarity
9 Framing, Subject Placement, Background
8 Visual Appeal, Subject matter
6 Would I frame or poster-board this picture? (Focus)
Composition: Subject Placement, Cropping, Background 10 ,
Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 9 ,
Appeal: Is it Interesting, Motivating, Etc.? 7 ,
Total Averaged Rating 9 .( Autool)
I guess rating on so many different criteria may be too time consuming for all (the number of images would keep increasing on this site as it becomes more and more popular) so I think we can club them together and have three broad categories:
Challenge met: (subject matter, mood (Is it Interesting, Motivating etc))
Visual appeal: (Framing, Subject Placement, Background, Color (tints, casts, bleeds), textures, DOF, clarity)
Creative effort: (Title, radical idea, viewing angle/ perspective, innovative lighting, etc)
(I have not included (a fourth category ) technical details here as many of us use auto cameras and do not have control on focus , exposure etc).
And what I propose is that a weightage can be decided for these three categories, (say 33% for each to begin with) and this can vary depending on the complexity or uniqueness of the challenge. This may or may not be known to the voters at the beginning of voting. The final score can be auto calculated on the basis of the weightage decided by the moderators.
I believe that if we use criteria like any of the above, it makes us a better photographer. We are forced to think of different aspects of a picture that in the long run help us work better with our own images.
Any suggestions?
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10/15/2002 03:30:55 AM · #2 |
It's a lovely idea.
Personally, if the site goes that way I'd probably stop voting, I don't have time to vote that way, (though I do view each photo a number of times during voting) and I personally prefer to vote on all or none of the entries. Just my personal preference.
I think it's better to allow those who want to give more detail (like the examples above) to do so in their own way, and leave voting as it for those of us who would prefer not to vote that way?
Just my 2 pence...
Kavey
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10/15/2002 06:24:45 AM · #3 |
| Because there is so fewer entreys this time I am experimenting with a 4 point vote. It takes me a lot of time to seperate out and consider objectively each point and then do the math. And you know what? the end score is no different from my gestalt responce. |
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10/15/2002 08:08:20 AM · #4 |
I don't find those broken-down comments of any greater value than others. I have no way of knowing whether the comments come from an expert or a newbie, so they signify nothing.
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10/15/2002 08:50:37 AM · #5 |
I vote my feelings based on three things:
- impact (visually, emotionally, esthetically, etc.)
- technical merit (composition, lighting, focus, color, balance, etc.)
- how well it meets the challenge (without the title)
On the last point, I look at the picture and not the title, I know what the challenge is; if someone has to explain the picture to me with the title then I don't think it meets the requirements.
The very best photograph both with impact and technical merit won't get the best rating if it doesn't meet the challenge. There were too many photos in the 7 Deadly Sins challenge that were good but had nothing to do with sin.
I put all the "really good" ones in the 9 or 10 category. I put the good ones in the 7 or 8 category. And I put the not so good ones in the 5 or 6 category. And if I don't like the photograph at all I put it in a 3 or 4 category. Then I review each category and may change the scores. |
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10/15/2002 09:22:06 AM · #6 |
Thanks sanandan for using my system as one of your examples. I have messed around with this way of expressing my feelings for pictures for quite some time. I think that everyone should use a system that they are comfortable with and the site is set up so you can do that. This is one of the things that make DPC so interesting. For those that are interested I have my system set up in Excell and it automatically averages and I have a macro that copies the whole thing so I only have to paste it into DPC, and then click the corresponding vote. It takes a little longer than just throwing out an arbitrary vote, but at the same time it does give the photographer a bit of confidence that you are at least looking at more than one aspect of their picture. I get a lot of compliments on this system and very few complaints, and the rest are just satisfied or plain don't care what happens as long as they place in some predetermined level of the competition. Whatever the case I encourage every one to have fun, learn if you can, and share your knowledge with those of use that badly need your help .
Keep shootin' and most of all have fun!
Autool |
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10/15/2002 11:04:22 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by sanandan:
And what I propose is that a weightage can be decided for these three categories, (say 33% for each to begin with) and this can vary depending on the complexity or uniqueness of the challenge. This may or may not be known to the voters at the beginning of voting. The final score can be auto calculated on the basis of the weightage decided by the moderators.
No! No! No!
If someone (be it some sort of a scheme or some weightage decided by mods) is going to do the voting for me I WOULD STOP VOTING ALTOGETHER.
Listen, I am an adult and *I* know what I like or what I don't like. I am not a little kid who can only handle filling in the boxes and let someone decide for me what I am supposed to like or not like.
When I stand in a museum and look at a painting, say The Jewish Bride by Rembrandt, I am not going to say "Gee, let's see now, Rembrandt,I will give you a 10 for visual/emotional impact (I would like to give you 100 but my system only goes up to 10), and an 8 for composition and a 6 for color. Therefore, Rembrandt, I rate your Jewish Bride 8 overall".
Initially, I was very pleased with Autool's rating system but have come to see it as rather limiting overall. That's all imho, of course. To me, it is just a filling in the boxes exercise and you will/might tweak the boxes in order to come up with the score that you want to give intuitively (Aelith is that your Gestalt Response? I had never heard that used in that context, but it's a great expression :)
Foremost, I look at the emotional/visual impact a picture makes on me. If it makes none, then it is really irrelevant to me how well the picture has been executed technically. Then, I ask myself what is causing that impact. What technical aspects help to support that impact. I appreciate creativity, originality, risk, courage to explore new terrains. When I see those things I am much more lenient with technical weaknesses.
So, yeah, my vote is highly subjective. But you know what? It is MY vote. It is what I see and like. And if I am not allowed to do so, then don't ask me to spend a lot of time voting.
PS: I used The Jewish Bride by Rembrandt in my example but a better example would have been De Nachtwacht (The Nightwatch), which by many is considered his masterpiece. The fact is that painting broke and ruined his career. Until then, he was a highly respected and prosperous artist. With The Nightwatch, which was so unorthodox in its composition, he broke new terrain. The Guild who had commissioned the painting, refused it (i.e., it wasn't meeting the challenge!). After that painting, his life became very hard. Look at the humanity in the face of the old Rembrandt! That's why I like to reward courage and risk in these challenges. By doing so, I might encourage someone to become a better photographer and find his/her own language. Isn't that what these challenges and this site are all about? To learn and to become better? I don't see these by the box voting schemes accommodating such efforts. imho
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/15/2002 11:19:48 AM. |
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10/15/2002 11:21:52 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Jak:
I don't find those broken-down comments of any greater value than others. I have no way of knowing whether the comments come from an expert or a newbie, so they signify nothing.
I agree, I don't find the broken out comments any more valuable.
In fact, because typically they only assign a number, it is a lot less
useful or interesting to me than a comment/ critque that actually
explains the aspects that you like or don't. Everyone is using
different scales so numbers to me are largely useless, other than
good/bad. At which point I'd rather hear the thoughts behind them
or not hear them at all and just get the final number. |
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10/15/2002 11:27:38 AM · #9 |
I have to agree with those who say "no" here. The beauty of an empty box is that you can choose, like Autool and others, to break down your method of scoring if you like.
I know that I'm taking all of those things into consideration while voting, but I really wouldn't want to take the time to click off a series of boxes for each photo.
We need to continue to encourage voting, not stymie it. As it is now, people can spend as little or as much time putting details into their voting.
I'm not saying I don't appreciate Autool's method -- I do! I just don't think everyone should be forced into something similar. |
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10/15/2002 08:52:46 PM · #10 |
Sorry, for my long rant above. Gordon said it quite eloquently. Even though broken down by some aspects, it is still just some numbers that are highly dependent on one's voting range.
It is the good comments that I really cherish (often there isn't much else to cherish) and if someone says "beautiful" or "looks like a painting" that means a lot more to me than a few numbers for certain aspects.
Besides, once you force yourself to vote by certain boxes, you also limit yourself to consider only those aspects or you end up creating so many boxes to cover all the aspects that voting becomes a fulltime job. |
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10/15/2002 09:04:56 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Journey:
... Even though broken down by some aspects, it is still just some numbers that are highly dependent on one's voting range.
exactly
in the pencil challenge, i had one of the "pencil drawing a pencil" entries
i got three comments that broke down their scoring -- for "meeting the challenge", i got two 10's and an 8
huh? did anyone meet the challenge for that voter?
or perhaps meeting the challenge doesn't matter that much to some people, so it rates lower
there's no way to tell
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/15/2002 9:10:42 PM.
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10/15/2002 09:12:27 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by spiderman:
huh? did anyone meet the challenge for that voter?
Their own entry and everything else wasn't quite up to that concept ?
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10/15/2002 09:27:10 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by spiderman:
in the pencil challenge, i had one of the "pencil drawing a pencil" entries
i got three comments that broke down their scoring -- for "meeting the challenge", i got two 10's and an 8
huh? did anyone meet the challenge for that voter?
or perhaps meeting the challenge doesn't matter that much to some people, so it rates lower
there's no way to tell
[/i]
Exactly. I just don't see how your Pencil entry, I remember it well, could have gotten only an 8 for meeting the challenge. In my mind, on the pencil challenge, everybody met the challenge readily as every submission contained a pencil. I don't add points for meeting the challenge, may vote it down just a little if it seems a little weak (but hey, who am I to tell if something meets the challenge or not). I vote down a lot when someone made a nice shot that week that had obviously absolutely nothing to do with the challenge and comes up with a contrived title to make it "work".
You can adopt some "pseudo-scientific" approach for voting with boxes but then you throw in some aspect like "meeting the challenge" and if you vote on that from 1-10, you give yourself a lot of leeway to come out with the vote that you really want to give all along. The Gestalt Response, according to Aelith! So, why bother with the boxes then. Sum up your appraisal mentally or in a comment and you are just as fair or subjective. In the end, whatever approach you use, it is all subjective anyway. But don't force voters to adopt some scheme of voting that they don't want. I certainly don't want to vote by the box.
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10/15/2002 10:00:57 PM · #14 |
I post all my comments in word for for this reason. I may love the subject, and the focus, and such, but not like the lighting. So I give you a 2 for lighting (not overall score, just lighting). what does that mean?
Was it too bright? to dark? were there shadows? a horrible glare or reflection where one shouldn't really be?
Don't get me wrong. The number system does let me know that there is a problem. But it doesn't really let me know what the problem is. I am not saying that I don't appreciate those comments at all. It is a lot better than the 300 people that don't say anything.
I realize that a lot of people don't have the spare time that I do. I can respect that. Maybe an addition though, something like...
Technically correct , exposure, focus, saturation , contrast. 6 *LITTLE SOFT ON FOCUS*
Good composition. 5 *A BIT BUSY IN THE BACKGROUND*
Tells a story or creates a mood 6 *FEELING OF SADNESS*
Impact to the viewer 5 *A LITTLE BORING, BUT OVERALL NICE*
Relevance to the Challenge 6 *A BIT OF A STRETCH*
Or something that relates to the specific photo. Time is an issue, this is understood, and if it's just not possible, it's just not possible.
I'll continue on with my long winded comments, lol, as I have the time to do so. Sometimes I might not make it to all the photos, but all in all, I don't think I'm doing too bad.
~Heather~
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10/15/2002 10:42:41 PM · #15 |
The only thing i'd suggest and we have went over this again and again :) and I am not talking my YES or NO voting system on whether i like it or not, i just would like people to COMMENT on the image, constructively hopefully, and LEAVE YOUR USERNAME by it with your rating. After being on here for a while there are a few people whose work you like and who can be objective, but not all of them leaves comments but I'd value their "vote" on the image, whatever voting system it is.
That's it :) And no, if we were to move to a multi-level voting system, i don't think i'll have time to vote and it won't solve the problem of everyone voting on a different scale. I think a lot of people on the CURRENT challenge of SINS votes based on whether they are disguted about the subject matter. If they are sicken by it, you bet you'll get a one. (But if they feel sick, doesn't that mean you have done your job as the photographer to deliver a message? That should be a 6-7 at least in my book)
So here's my voting scale, designed to fit with the 1-10 scale:
1 - I hate it for a lot of reasons. Technical, artistic, whatever. It doesn't work for me, it doesn't mean it's bad, because I might be pretty dumb not being able to figure out. But as far as *I* am concerned, i don't like it at all, a root canal is more interesting, maybe it lacks feeling or something, i don't know, but i know i hate it.
2 - I don't like it a lot. but i don't necessarily hate it.
3 - I don't like it.
4 - Uh, i am not really sure, but i definitely wouldn't say I like it, but i am not sur ei don't like it.
5 - same as 4
6 - same as 4
7 - I like it, the message is delivered but there are some flaws (technical or otherwise) in the image or maybe there is some issues with composition.
8 - I like it, the message is decently delivered but there are still some room for improvement in my view.
9 - I really like it, there might be a few defects, but i like it.
10 - I love it. Message is clearly delivered, technically good in my view and adds to the image.
And it seems my statistics for this weeks' challenge would probably include about 15-20 photos that scores 8-10 out of 150 images, maybe 10-15 in the 7 range, *MAYBE* haven't gone down that far yet, and the rest will be distributed lower. To me a 4-6 is a 1 in my I like it OR NOT scale, but i can't vote that way or my vote won't count, so that's my voting system.
(Before you reply back and tell me how narrowminded i am and how i only grade subjectively -- well, the analogy i always give is that it takes years to know what is a good image or not as far as being able to JUDGE IT OBJECTIVELY, but the only thing i know is whether i like it or not, subjectively. Like violin, which I have played for 20 years and i knew my limits in it and i knew within maybe 3-4 measures of a violinist playing in front of me to know whether they ahve talent and how much talent and how far they could go. I wouldn't be able to do that if i've only played 2 years.)
And since we've been beating this topic to death, this will be my only message :)
<out....>
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/15/2002 10:58:54 PM.
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10/15/2002 10:57:57 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by paganini:
<out....>
Does that mean you are gone for good??? :)
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10/15/2002 11:12:03 PM · #17 |
Okay, I for one like the way autool adn the others break down their scoring (I would like to do something similar, but do not have the discipline -- sloth?). I understand that when i read theirs, their numbers are relative to the way they vote. I don't read it as Meet the Challenge = 8 as "Hmm, they must not have thought I met the challenge very well," but rather as Challenge = 8, Technical = 4. "oh, I met the challenge, but there is something technically they didn't like."
If autool and others want to comment this way, I say more power to them. Until I take the effort to do something more involved, I will not stand and criticize their method.
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10/15/2002 11:22:55 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Okay, I for one like the way autool adn the others break down their scoring (I would like to do something similar, but do not have the discipline -- sloth?). I understand that when i read theirs, their numbers are relative to the way they vote. I don't read it as Meet the Challenge = 8 as "Hmm, they must not have thought I met the challenge very well," but rather as Challenge = 8, Technical = 4. "oh, I met the challenge, but there is something technically they didn't like."
If autool and others want to comment this way, I say more power to them. Until I take the effort to do something more involved, I will not stand and criticize their method.
Karmat, thanks for the vote of confidence. Oh by the way I have been known to add a comment if I think I need to clarify further why I rated a p[icture the way I did. I really don't care how many different ways a person does it, it all ends up being subjective in the end. Somewhere in the voting process a decision is made on what that individual thinks about the picture. If there was a way to eliminate the personal feelings about a picture all of the scores would be identical, and I just don't think that would be very much fun. Oh damn I keep going back to the fun thing.
Autool
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10/15/2002 11:25:09 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by karmat:
...but rather as Challenge = 8, Technical = 4. "oh, I met the challenge, but there is something technically they didn't like."
if the scale was 1-8, that would be okay, but we've (mostly) all been using a 10-point scale -- and while 8 is a VERY good score, if they thought i was off the mark by 20% when everyone else thought i scored a direct hit, i'd like to know why
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10/15/2002 11:32:08 PM · #20 |
When I am looking at whether someone meets the challenge or not, it is not a simple yes (10) or no (1). there are degrees. Someone who has portrayed an excellent interpretation of the challenge would get a ten, especially if it were extremely creative (my subjective view). It it is pretty good, it might be between 6 and 9. etc. etc. If it is a far stretch of the challenge, and I can't figure it out from any angle, it might be lower, but i tell the person in my comments that i don't get it. I also sign my name, so they can chose to contact me or not.
Why did one give you an 8 and two a 10? I don't know, but i might suspect someone to have degrees of meeting the challenge, and others to do a simple yes or no.
I appreciate the way they do it because that tells me they are taking time to look at and think about the picture. It also responds to complaints in other threads about straight scores and not understanding why someone only scored a "5." This way, the voter can show you why it is a five. And besides, when it comes down to it, it is only one vote.
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10/15/2002 11:48:17 PM · #21 |
Pag,, you said "So here's my voting scale, designed to fit with the 1-10 scale:
1 - I hate it for a lot of reasons. Technical, artistic, whatever. It doesn't work for me, it doesn't mean it's bad, because I might be pretty dumb not being able to figure out. But as far as *I* am concerned, i don't like it at all, a root canal is more interesting, maybe it lacks feeling or something, i don't know, but i know i hate it.
2 - I don't like it a lot. but i don't necessarily hate it.
3 - I don't like it.
4 - Uh, i am not really sure, but i definitely wouldn't say I like it, but i am not sur ei don't like it.
5 - same as 4
6 - same as 4
7 - I like it, the message is delivered but there are some flaws (technical or otherwise) in the image or maybe there is some issues with composition.
8 - I like it, the message is decently delivered but there are still some room for improvement in my view.
9 - I really like it, there might be a few defects, but i like it.
10 - I love it. Message is clearly delivered, technically good in my view and adds to the image.
Seems to me that this ranking only grades yourself not the artwork. I mean if you gave my picture a 4 all I would imperically know is that YOU do not relate to it. That doesn't tell me why. It doesn't tell me how sensitive to composition, or knowledgable about creativity---- it tells me nothing but your feelings or lack thereof.
But if some one give you a 1-3 YOU want to know why, also. |
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10/15/2002 11:52:54 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by karmat:
... It also responds to complaints in other threads about straight scores and not understanding why someone only scored a "5." This way, the voter can show you why it is a five.
unless they actually DO tell you why they voted the way they did on each subsection, it only serves to turn one mysterious vote into four or five mysterious votes
... And besides, when it comes down to it, it is only one vote.
on that, we agree
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10/16/2002 12:00:07 AM · #23 |
I wasn't planning on replying but it has been argued before in another post... all i am saying is that i can only give subjective feedback. If I give you objective feedback, you're assuming i am giving you something that i knew a lot about, and frankly unless i have been doing this for a number of years (i'd say, minimum of 10 years), i would not feel comfortable doing so. Likewise, i have received some criticism from here and other sites about my photos that clearly showed the viewer also doesn't know what they're talking about. I can only say if i like it or whether it is effective in COMMUNICATING TO ME. That's all. Unless there is something that i can definitely say "Ok, this guy screw it up", i usually don't leave comments for things i don't find attractive. But, i think i can tell if a photograph has emotional content and a message, then agian, THAT is subjective, not objective because not everyone sees the same message the same way.
How do you go about telling someone that their very well technically done superdooper snapshots doesn't do anything for me? I am not sure how to explain that. I can only respond with, i don't like it. To me at least, a good photograph is a metaphor, either you get it or you don't.
By the way, one can't ever grade "art" :) We can only grade our own response to it. The greater the "art", the greater our response.
Originally posted by aelith:
Pag,, you said "So here's my voting scale, designed to fit with the 1-10 scale:
1 - I hate it for a lot of reasons. Technical, artistic, whatever. It doesn't work for me, it doesn't mean it's bad, because I might be pretty dumb not being able to figure out. But as far as *I* am concerned, i don't like it at all, a root canal is more interesting, maybe it lacks feeling or something, i don't know, but i know i hate it.
2 - I don't like it a lot. but i don't necessarily hate it.
3 - I don't like it.
4 - Uh, i am not really sure, but i definitely wouldn't say I like it, but i am not sur ei don't like it.
5 - same as 4
6 - same as 4
7 - I like it, the message is delivered but there are some flaws (technical or otherwise) in the image or maybe there is some issues with composition.
8 - I like it, the message is decently delivered but there are still some room for improvement in my view.
9 - I really like it, there might be a few defects, but i like it.
10 - I love it. Message is clearly delivered, technically good in my view and adds to the image.
Seems to me that this ranking only grades yourself not the artwork. I mean if you gave my picture a 4 all I would imperically know is that YOU do not relate to it. That doesn't tell me why. It doesn't tell me how sensitive to composition, or knowledgable about creativity---- it tells me nothing but your feelings or lack thereof.
But if some one give you a 1-3 YOU want to know why, also.
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10/16/2002 12:27:55 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by paganini:
How do you go about telling someone that their very well technically done superdooper snapshots doesn't do anything for me? I am not sure how to explain that. I can only respond with, i don't like it. To me at least, a good photograph is a metaphor, either you get it or you don't.
That's exactly the point I made above! It is not a cop out but I don't make comments anymore on pictures that I don't like. It isn't so much a matter that I mind getting the WTF PMs and such. But what the hell is the point?!!! I just don't like it and I might try to tell the photographer that until I see blue in the face but it doesn't make a bean of difference. Why waste a long comment saying that I don't like a picture of a tv monitor. Obviously, the photographer disagreed with me on that one.
Nowadays, I only comment on the pictures that I *really* like and leave my input/suggestions/reservations on those. For all the other pictures, I neither have the desire to convey my dislike or neutrality nor the technical ability to advice what to do. (that's not entirely true. these days I only comment on a max of about 10 pictures. there are plenty of pictures that I score quite well but don't have time to comment on). And I say it again: make the vote public and you can see the scores. If you see you got a 3 from so and so, you ought to know enough; you really don't need his/her comment anymore.
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/16/2002 12:31:00 AM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/16/2002 12:34:04 AM. |
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10/16/2002 12:53:02 AM · #25 |
If I had to put in a bazillion classifications to each vote, I'd probably wind up spending less time actually looking at the picture. I either vote all or none, and I try to finish by tuesday (just did tonight), and then come back later in the week and see if I feel differently on any of them.
Techinal merit is actually near the bottom of my list. Sometimes you can break all the "rules" and make a stunning photo. I look for creativity/originality, emotional impact, a message that to me communicates the theme of the challenge. Pretty is way down the list, below technical. Does the photo grab me, and make me look, make me feel strongly, that gets a better vote.
I do try to comment on anything above a 8, or below 4. I try to leave constructive comments, on what worked or what didn't. At the same time I try to remember that this is a public challenge and the voters are the public. Much as we might like crtiques from esteemed professionals this is not the place, and sometimes we get comments like "this photo sucked."
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