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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Naturally Framed Kills Me
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 06/13/2005 11:06:48 AM · #1
I entered

in the Naturally Framed challenge. I didn't know how well it would do, but it sure did worse than I thought. My problems always seem to be a post production problems. I use Paint Shop Pro and I used the auto saturation at the strong more color setting, I used auto contrast to increase the contrast slightly, I resized to meet challenge, and I USM sligtly. I only got three comments, but they seem to point to post production.

I picked this photo because of the Natural Frame. I almost submitted this picture.

But I didn't feel that it was naturally framed. This picture has had no post editing.

Do You think it would have done better?

Thanks for you input. I am trying to learn how to make my photos better. My goal is to someday make it into the top 50% of the votes.
06/13/2005 11:12:54 AM · #2
The comments actually point to overexposure, probably because the creek is way white. Aside from that, if the creek is the subject being framed, there doesn't seem to be enough of it and it doesn't feel like it is central to the image. Without the title, the eyes wander around looking for something.

I think the bug woulda done better almost certainly. Hope this helps.

Have fun.
 06/13/2005 11:16:47 AM · #3
Thanks kpriest, I never thought about the creek being overexposed and to small. I was just taking pictures and shot this. Looked at it when I got backed and saw that it seemed like a very nice framed picture and thought it would do ok.

Thanks for you comments, they are very helpful. I've been taking pictures for a long time, but never thought about the end result and am trying hard to get to the point where I build a picture instead of just take a picture.
 06/13/2005 11:19:38 AM · #4
I gave that a 6. You could try some curves to up the contrast. As it was an advanced challenge you might have been able to burh the creek and make it darker and more natural, assuming ther eis any detail left there to bring out.

Practice with USM for sharpening - it can make a big difference. The order of the workflow matters too - there was a recent thread on this here.

06/13/2005 11:25:13 AM · #5
Prof Fate, Thanks for the vote. I have tried to do spot editing, but when I get done, I always feel that I can really tell that I did spot editing and I don't think that pictures that you can tell if they did spot editing do so well. My other problem is I have a wife who I think doesn't want to hurt my feelings and tell me if a picture looks bad or good. I always get the it's all right answer.
 06/13/2005 11:29:40 AM · #6
Originally posted by JeremyFleury:
My other problem is I have a wife who I think doesn't want to hurt my feelings and tell me if a picture looks bad or good. I always get the it's all right answer.

It's like when she asks you "Do these pants make me look fat?" LOL

Sometimes people get lucky and take a picture, then find out about the challenge topic and it fits well. Most of the time, you need to go after and "build" the shot as you mentioned.
06/13/2005 11:29:57 AM · #7
Tell me what you see or not here:


Before and after versions. I am not a master, but i had to help the eyes out, and kill off the eye-distracting yellow abover her head.

I agree with you on seeing the work but some of that is because YOU did it and know it is there. I have the same probelm when i paint a room - i kow where the flaws are and that's all i see, but other folks say it looks great.
 06/13/2005 11:31:09 AM · #8
I agree with the others. It's a great scene, but the greens look a little overexposed and the creek is too white. I'd guess the low score was more from people who didn't consider it framed.

The subject of the photo is the whole scene and not just the creek, so in my opinion it's a stretch to call it framing, but that's very arguable.
 06/13/2005 11:31:46 AM · #9
Jeremy,

When using PSP (version 9) I've gotten better results using the manual adjustments rather than the auto settings. You get better control.

Under the 'Adjust/Brightness & Contrast' menu try some of the following:
Clarify - just a small (+1 or 2) can be interesting.
Brightness & Contrast - experiment with small increments. I've found that bumping the contrast can impact any hotspots so be careful. Try small increase like (Brightness -1 or 2 with Contrast +5 to 10).
Highlight/Midtone/Shadow (HMS) can also be a great tool - experiment to see what you get.

Under the 'Adjust/Hue and Saturation' menu try Hue/Saturation/Lightness adjustment. Add a small bump to the Saturation value...again, experiment.

One other handy tool (a bit of an 'Auto' tool) is the 'Adjust/Photo Fix/Fill Flash'. I've used this in place of the HMS mentioned above. Set to +20 can help add a bit of light to a slightly underexposed image.

Good luck and keep having fun! Nice camera by the way. ;^)

Message edited by author 2005-06-13 11:33:35.
 06/13/2005 11:39:21 AM · #10
I hope you don't mind me fiddling with these...I took your entry and adjusted the curves, hue, and saturation on it and added a layer of gaussian blur (20 pixels at 25% opacity). I also painted in a silvery/bluish grey tint on the water in the creek. Just something to give the shot a bit more depth, but I'm notorious for overdoing it in PS. ;O)

The second one is nice, I like the natural frame around the dragonfly. I cropped and did pretty much the same exact thing to it as I did the previous shot. I'll take these down in a moment; just giving you some post-processing ideas. :o)


06/13/2005 11:39:38 AM · #11
glad2badad, thanks for the help. I will try your suggestions next time. I have messed with PSP and I seem to always over due my post editing.

I was trying to learn to use the dodge and burn technique, but with PSP I don't believe you can select the level (higlights, mid, or shadows) to burn/dodge. It can only find where it will burn/dodge on all levels. Do you know if this is true?

Thanks
 06/13/2005 11:40:59 AM · #12
Prof Fate, I realy enjoyed your picture. I have a 2 and half year old and they make for great pictures. I really have trouble doing post editing on those pictures. Nothing seems to ever be as good as the origianl of my daughter.
 06/13/2005 11:41:24 AM · #13
Originally posted by laurielblack:

Outstanding post-processing on this one, Laurie! This should help Jeremy alot. Would have gained at least 2 points from my vote.
 06/13/2005 11:44:39 AM · #14
laurielblack, Thanks, I agree with kpriest. Your post editing made my picuture POP. Thanks to all, I will keep fiddling with PSP to see if I can figure out how to do some of your suggestions.

Laurie, any time you want to do post editing on my pictures, you are welcome to. Wish I could work something out with someone, where I take the shot and someone else edits. I think this was suggested one time for a challenge.

06/13/2005 11:47:51 AM · #15
Not sure what you mean by levels. I've not used Dodge/Burn very often, but when I have I can apply it to anything I want whether I'm working with a layer or the main background of an image. Dodge/Burn has all the selection tool parameters so it can be applied in small doses (opacity, etc...) or in various sizes (brush size 1pixel to ???).

Sounds like you are talking about the capacity/ability of another application?

Originally posted by JeremyFleury:
glad2badad, thanks for the help. I will try your suggestions next time. I have messed with PSP and I seem to always over due my post editing.

I was trying to learn to use the dodge and burn technique, but with PSP I don't believe you can select the level (higlights, mid, or shadows) to burn/dodge. It can only find where it will burn/dodge on all levels. Do you know if this is true?

Thanks

06/13/2005 11:54:10 AM · #16
Sorry glad, I had read through the tutorial about dodge/burn, but it was for Photoshop and they talked about using dodge on the highlights and using burn on the shadows. That's what I meant by levels.

Thanks for your input.
 06/13/2005 12:18:02 PM · #17
Outstanding work by Laurie on the framed landscape. Here's my take on Prof's photo of his daughter:

original: shopped:

I've selected and saved 3 zones: the yellow shape at top, the colored framing areas of the playset, and an inverted merging of the two (basically a selection of evie alone).

I neutralized the yellow and darkened it slightly with hue/saturation. I used hue/saturation to shift color on the surround to one that better complemented the coloring of the child's face. I used selective color in the white, neutral and black channels to carefully balance the hues and densities of the different areas of the face.

Perhaps most importantly, I finally loaded of the evie-only channel; and made repeated USM passes at different values, changing layer modes to lighten and darken on the last two, and fading them until the result looked smooth.

The effect of that is to create more sharpness/visual acuity on the face.

Robt.
 06/13/2005 12:31:22 PM · #18
Left a comment on the shot.

Deannda
Post processing is very important, never, ever IN A MILLION YEARS use AUTO anything, you stay in control at all times :)

06/13/2005 12:50:41 PM · #19
Never say never. Most of the time auto does not give you what you want but.... there is that one time where it will work.
 06/13/2005 12:54:45 PM · #20
Thank you all for your comments. I used the Auto settings, because I have never had luck using the manual settings. I need more practice, but time is sometimes to short to get the experience needed to make my pictures pop.
06/13/2005 01:13:51 PM · #21
Originally posted by neuferland:
Post processing is very important, never, ever IN A MILLION YEARS use AUTO anything, you stay in control at all times :)


I often stick an auto adjustment (or several) in at an early stage, to see what it will do. I often fade or undo the result, but it does quite often do something that is useful, or at least useful to see. If it does do a good job, it can save me half an hour of fiddling.
 06/13/2005 01:42:26 PM · #22
That's a good point legalbeagle. Once in awhile I'll use the auto 'One Step Photo Fix' (PSP 9) just to see what it does. I've watched the script run enough times to see the results as they take place. ONE advantage to having an older PC. ;^) Then I just hit undo or remove it from the history list.

Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Originally posted by neuferland:
Post processing is very important, never, ever IN A MILLION YEARS use AUTO anything, you stay in control at all times :)


I often stick an auto adjustment (or several) in at an early stage, to see what it will do. I often fade or undo the result, but it does quite often do something that is useful, or at least useful to see. If it does do a good job, it can save me half an hour of fiddling.

06/13/2005 01:56:21 PM · #23
I still say never, not for me. I used to use Auto all the time but then I took a weekend and just started fiddling with the different things and reading up on what they do and then the workshop so I would never use it again. Not that my shots are all that amazing or anything but I like knowing exactly what was done and how it was done :)

Deannda
 06/13/2005 02:17:19 PM · #24
My PP workflow always begins as follows:

1. Save-as .psd
2. Duplicate Layer from Background
3. Autolevels, study, revert
4. Autocolor, study, revert

THEN I start working. Those auto adjustments can be very revealing; they may expose somethign you otherwise would never have considered, especially in seriously under or over exposed images.

Robt.
 06/13/2005 11:52:14 PM · #25
Originally posted by JeremyFleury:
My problems always seem to be a post production problems. I use Paint Shop Pro and I used the auto saturation at the strong more color setting, I used auto contrast to increase the contrast slightly, I resized to meet challenge, and I USM sligtly. I only got three comments, but they seem to point to post production.

Thanks for you input. I am trying to learn how to make my photos better. My goal is to someday make it into the top 50% of the votes.


Jeremy, I use PSP8 (you didn't say what version you use) for post processing. I have played with quite a few of the adjustment controls, but I also have a hard time with much of them. The one think I will suggest you play with is Adjust | Brightness and Contrast | Histogram Adjustment. (I turn off the overlay resulting histogram...personal preference). You can use it in either Luminance mode (easiest), or Colors mode where you can individually adjust the histogram/levels of each color (RGB). Basically, move the edge sliders inward to get rid of any unused area of the graph as a starting point..and fine tune from there. You can also adjust the Gamma here to brighten or darken. I have played with the levels and curves tools (and actually use the curves tool some), but they take a lot more practice to get good at.

Regarding your question about the dodge/burn tools, yes, at least in PSP8, you can restrict to hilights, mid-tones, and shadows (or none). But, either I don't know how to effectively use the tools, or they just don't work exactly the same as Photoshop. I have read several tutorials on PS (including the thread mentioned here), but things just don't seem to work like I expect.

Anyway, play with the histogram adjustment tool, I think you'll like it.

Tim
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