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09/25/2005 03:15:07 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Digital technology cheapens the photographic industry as a whole, and this is true of both quality and quantity. People want CHEAP first, and quality takes a dim backseat to the cheapness. Lets face it, for a lot of people cheap=good enough. (You gotta love those Wal-Mart photo studios) As for quantity... well, I have a scanner and a printer, don't you? |
The cynic in me takes another view at time. The levelling of the playing field by making proper equiment affordable to the general public has basically exposed those professional photographers who made a living just by having equipment not available to most people. Their talent was lukewarm at best. Now that everybody has access to the equipment it becomes apparent that everybody has a brother-in-law with just as much talent who is willing to do it for free.
Those photographers who have skill and ability above the norm will still make it. Their talent will still shine in the digital age... |
There is certainly some truth to this, at least on some level. No doubt about it.
Ultimately, though, I think cheap prices and creative marketing (and a good business plan in general) will make a photographer a lot more money than any amount of talent.
In other words, if you want to be a pro photographer doing the wedding and portrait types of work, it doesn't hurt to have talent. However, you MUST have some business skill. If you don't, you will fail no matter how much talent you have.
The reason I say this is because quality counts for so little. Seriously. People expect to pay wal-mart prices for ANY photo work, regardless of how good it may be. If the subject is well lit, and you can capture any kind of smile or expression, then you have done all that is expected. Going beyond this buys you little to nothing extra for your talent. It's just the way things are any more.
Message edited by author 2005-09-25 16:49:39. |
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09/25/2005 03:19:19 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by bellyup:
WHEN YOU PLAY AT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW THE RULES OR YOU'LL NEVER BEAT THE BEST. |
Well my friend, looks like you don't know the rules, and are being beaten by the best ... from your own statements, you are closing up shop because you just can't contend with the amateurs out there that are obviously producing better results than yourself!
I, too, am sorry for your loss, but you truly are a bitter, bitter individual. If instead of mouthing off, and assuming no one on here knows anything about business OR photography, you were cool about it, things would be different. Until you convince me otherwise, I say you can't hang my man...good luck ;-)
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09/25/2005 03:22:36 PM · #53 |
Anyway, and to reiterate my main point...if you have it, you have it...and whether a shiny new digital camera was $100 or $20,000 you're going to always have it.
You don't hear Sacha Waldman, Peter Schafrick, Michael Muller, or those guys complaining about the cost of a digital camera...they have a skill, that goes beyond just having a camera.
The fact of the matter is that photography is getting better...and if you have that skill, people WILL PAY FOR IT. Otherwise, better luck next time fella.
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09/25/2005 03:32:01 PM · #54 |
When you try to make money off something people do for fun, you are going to have problems unless you are exceptional. People are willing to do it for free, you need to be much better then them.
If you are not worth the money you charge, you will not survive. You can complain all you want about the customers or the amatures, but that's the deal in any business.
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09/25/2005 04:07:59 PM · #55 |
I have heard these arguments for years, when satellite TV came to UK, when video cameras appeared on the scene...same with PCs, CDs, DVDs etc, etc. It is so easy to find an excuse when all goes bellyup!
Jessops, a UK company, founded on selling cameras announced recently that they are stopping selling film SLRs, cos DSLRs are selling better. But, the most surprising thing is they are expanding their digital prints side of the company cos of the increase in demand for prints. They are even going to put kiosks outside their shops to meet demand.
If you are good at your job, there will be work. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Steve |
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09/25/2005 04:46:38 PM · #56 |
Excuse me if I don't feel sorry for Pro photographers.
Look at the software industry and you will find no end of free versions of Software. yet even individuals are able to make a living. Its even been simple to sell for much longer than photos.
Moan all you want but either addapt or move on and use photography as a second job.
Welcome to a free market and a world economy.
Take the rough with the smooth -- You've had the smooth for a long time now its time for the rough.
Good pros with broad skills will and an ability to use new technology as an advantage will do well, others will fail. Thats CAPITALISM for you. |
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09/25/2005 04:51:53 PM · #57 |
I am amazed at the comments that some of you are coming back with regards :
IF YOUR WORK IS GOOD ENOUGH THEN PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR IT.
PEOPLE KEEP TELLING ME THEY HAVE SCANNED MY WORK AND HAD COPIES MADE(WHY IF IT IS SO MEDIOCRE AND NOT WORTH THE MONEY BOTHER TO REPRODUCE IT FOR FRIENDS AND FAMILY???)
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09/25/2005 05:00:52 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by bellyup:
I am amazed at the comments that some of you are coming back with regards :
IF YOUR WORK IS GOOD ENOUGH THEN PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR IT.
PEOPLE KEEP TELLING ME THEY HAVE SCANNED MY WORK AND HAD COPIES MADE(WHY IF IT IS SO MEDIOCRE AND NOT WORTH THE MONEY BOTHER TO REPRODUCE IT FOR FRIENDS AND FAMILY???) |
I understand how you feel, but there is no need to shout!
AS far I know, photos, artwork etc has been copied, scanned for years. There is no real way to stop it unless you tell all your customers they will be taken to court if they copy your pics...then how often will you get repeat custom? Why not offer copies at cheap prices? I don't know, I am a gardener, not a photog...but people take cuttings off my plants all the time. Damn, maybe I should give up as well!
Steve
Message edited by author 2005-09-25 17:01:57. |
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09/25/2005 05:02:28 PM · #59 |
Another 2c...
I think the Photography industry is going through the same sort of change and evolution as other industries have over the last few years...
A parallel can be found in the computer industry even. When I started out in the computer business in 1989 we were selling $3-$4k computers with 40% margins. There were very few 'weekend warriors' in that industry at that stage. Just look at it now, every man and his dog is selling computers, with 5-10% margins.
BUT. (Big but) there are still the high end players in the market, because some people want that level of service and quality. The weekend warriors still standing who have been in business for a while provide niche work to small customer bases, or they have gone under. Established firms can easily outsell the fly-by-night solo pilot on the basis of support and stability of their business.
In the middle (early to mid 90's) there were a lot of box-droppers in the market, doing things for no margin, and with shonky businesses. That's where we're at with photography right now, and the industry is only just working out how to deal with it. In fact the photography business is moving quite slowly to react because there are so many 'old' ideas in the industry. That's why people like bellyup are so bitter I suspect..
Give it another few years, and things will have settled down again. The weekend warriors still standing will have risen to the top, and the old school studios that were financially viable will have weathered the storm, adapted to the new technology and found different ways to make their money. In the computer industry it's called value add and consultancy.
And for bellyup, I am sad to hear you're shutting up shop, and although I don't know all the detail I'd love to know what you've done to adapt, and move with the market.
Certainly the weekend warriors must be hurting brick and mortar studios, but here in NZ the mid to high end professional market is stronger than ever with the advent of cheap digital gear. So many people are out there taking OK photos that the skilled photographers work stands out from the crowd, and if your marketing is sound there's no reason why you can't be making a living from your craft.
And yes, people steal your work by scanning etc. That's why you adapt and base your rates on no repeat business and no reprints. Give the customer the option, lower cost and you get the prints from me, or higher cost and get the 'negatives'. Make it a key part of your sell. Talk about the difference between first generation and 2nd generation copies. If they don't buy in to it, they were going to copy your work anyway.
Heck, I'm a 'weekend warrior', and part of my pitch is that discussion. If it is clear to me that someone will run off 200 scanned copies of my work after I sell them one 6x4 print I bump up the quote a bit and supply the full sized jpegs so that at least the copies wont be crappy and might result in a referal down the track.
Be careful out there.
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09/25/2005 06:02:13 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Jmosher. A little harsh don't you think?
Just because someone's opinion is strong doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to say it. Bellyup is a professional photographer. This thread is about professional photographers.
He has chosen to register to a site that supports and nurtures amateur photographers (and a few pro's who admittedly don't need as much support and nurturing as guys like me). I can only assume he has done this because he feels it is a worthy pastime for himself and perhaps worthy to contribute to the art in general. |
Not harsh at all. Reading his FIRST post he is taking a dig at people like me and alot of the photographers on here. If he was that great of a photographer he would still be shooting. He is welcome to his opinion and so am I.
I am sorry his business is gone, but if some "WEAK END WARRIOR" is to blame, than we must not be the monkees he makes us out to be or he's not that great. I don't know which.
JM
Message edited by author 2005-09-25 18:05:43. |
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09/25/2005 07:59:21 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by bellyup:
PEOPLE KEEP TELLING ME THEY HAVE SCANNED MY WORK AND HAD COPIES MADE(WHY IF IT IS SO MEDIOCRE AND NOT WORTH THE MONEY BOTHER TO REPRODUCE IT FOR FRIENDS AND FAMILY???) |
I'm not saying there aren't cheap people out there...but you STILL have yet to prove to anyone on here anything about this 'skill' that you have. Since you have professed your work is SOOOO MUCH better than all of ours, I'd like to see just what it is that makes you worth more than ANYONE else.
Originally posted by bellyup:
Well people your going to get what you paid for either CRAP or VERY EXPENSIVE PROFESSIONAL STUDIOS (I believe it will be the first choice CRAP)
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As your amature status will be your weakness and your END should you wish to open a studio and put your money were your mouth is.Instead of playing (WARRIORS) another term for TOY SOLDIERS who only get brought out to play at spare moments before you get bored with them and forget about them.
WHEN YOU PLAY AT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW THE RULES OR YOU'LL NEVER BEAT THE BEST.
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Yeah dude, we get it...you're the best...lol
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09/25/2005 09:00:42 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Mary Ann Melton:
On another website, I've seen figures on how much money you can make with wedding photography - and I was amazed at how much you can charge.
But you have to adapt - and photographers that don't want to go digital and spend time in photoshop will at some point have difficulties in this new environment.
And competition is stiff - so your work really has to be good enough to compete. |
I would like to get into wedding photography. I have been acquiring the equipment, the skills, a portfolio, and studying the competetion.
Digital is IT. I have not run into a wedding photog shooting film, at all. One or two use it for backup or something special. ALL offer digital albums, some exclusively. So if you are in the biz and NOT going this route, you will change either formats or careers.
As to costs...or more accurately, what one charges. I have seen all types of business models. I lean toward a flat rate, including an album, all day coverage. Others charge for the coverage, prints/albums extra (from $11 to $40 per 8x10). At the last bridal show I attended one guy was charging $475 for 10 hours coverage, 300 or so proofs on CD, and 6 prints in a portfolio (he offered bigger packages). That is TOO cheap. Figure 10 hours on site, 2 hours making proofs, 2 hours more making the 'proper' 8x10s (i can't see charging extra for touch ups), plus costs of $75 maybe. $400 for labor - for 14 hours, equipment costs (either paying for it or it's wear and tear) and (hopefully) insurance, biz cards, the bridal show costs ($700 or more easily). The other photogs there (3 others) were charging $2400 and up. Up to $4500. that is a bit much, but some art leather albums with prints can run $800 in COSTS, plus labor and markup.
Senior Pictures are (to me) the photographic equivalent of hiway robbery. And i don;t know anyone other than the kids of photo hobbyists or the truly poor NOT using a pro studio for this stuff. $400-700 is the local range of a portrait package. I figure 3 to 4 hours TOTAL time on the part of the photographer. $100=150 in costs TOPS.
On topic - there is always an industry shakeup when there is a technological change. Cars killed the horse business. TV made movies change - go color, get more graphic, go to panavision, stereo and more. The internet is changing the recorded music industry. PCs changed the typewriter world, typesetting, and other areas too. Video cams killed the Super8 business. Slides are dead. (No one makes slide projectors anymore).
One must change and adapt. There will be market for professional photography. The rich will always want and pay for the best. The mass marketers will still be there (kmart, sears, picture people, et at). A little education goes a LONG way to increasing the value (demand and price) of a professional.
WebMD, bandaids and healhtfood stores have not done away with the GP doctor. Realtor.com has not eliminated the local real estate agent. Newspapers have changed, but are still around as well. |
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09/26/2005 07:23:44 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by bellyup:
I am amazed at the comments that some of you are coming back with regards :
IF YOUR WORK IS GOOD ENOUGH THEN PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR IT.
PEOPLE KEEP TELLING ME THEY HAVE SCANNED MY WORK AND HAD COPIES MADE(WHY IF IT IS SO MEDIOCRE AND NOT WORTH THE MONEY BOTHER TO REPRODUCE IT FOR FRIENDS AND FAMILY???) |
I refer you to my post prior to yours...
Originally posted by sn4psh07:
Excuse me if I don't feel sorry for Pro photographers.
Look at the software industry and you will find no end of free versions of Software. yet even individuals are able to make a living. Its even been simple to sell for much longer than photos.
Moan all you want but either addapt or move on and use photography as a second job.
Welcome to a free market and a world economy.
Take the rough with the smooth -- You've had the smooth for a long time now its time for the rough.
Good pros with broad skills will and an ability to use new technology as an advantage will do well, others will fail. Thats CAPITALISM for you. |
Do you think no one copies software???
Devs manage, if you can't then sue those who copy your work or deal with it... Theft is a fact of life. |
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09/26/2005 08:49:17 AM · #64 |
It's a sad situation when someone is reduced to complaining about how the changing times and technology are losing them business. The point is, the world will change - you can either adapt and survive, or be left behind.
If you have a fully blown studio and all those magic gadgets, and a name for yourself, you already have an advantage over the "weak end warrior". So if joe average from down the street is taking your business, you have nobody to blame but yourself, and your own entrenched arrogant stubbornness.
You may think you're "the best" but if you're unable to cope with competition, you may quickly find the customers won't think the same.
And as for copying - people will copy photographs. People copy music, they've been doing it nearly a century. People have been copying films since VHS recorders came out. This isn't something you can blame on a weekend warrior - it's your own problem to deal with. If you can't show your customers why buying a new 20"x30" print is better than scanning and inkjet printing a scrappy 4"x6", then maybe they really aren't losing out, and you don't deserve the extra business.
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09/26/2005 09:33:55 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by riot:
"weak end warrior |
Actually I think the correct translation was "weak end toy soldier"
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09/26/2005 11:53:11 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by jmosher:
Originally posted by bellyup:
Weekend warriors The term confirms it's true worth and status:
Week end = Should be spelt (WEAK END)
As your amature status will be your weakness and your END should you wish to open a studio and put your money were your mouth is.Instead of playing (WARRIORS) another term for TOY SOLDIERS who only get brought out to play at spare moments before you get bored with them and forget about them.
WHEN YOU PLAY AT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW THE RULES OR YOU'LL NEVER BEAT THE BEST.
There are some truly great amatuer photographers out there.THE POINT IS:
They will not make a living from their passion or run a Studio on profit if JOE PUBLIC STEALS THEIR WORK OR PAYS PEANUTS TO MONKEYS |
You registerd on here just to post that?
Sucks to be you. You can leave now.
JM |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Just because someone's opinion is strong doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to say it. Bellyup is a professional photographer. This thread is about professional photographers.
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JMosher. I just want to be clear that my message was not referring to your taking issue with whether Bellyup is a worthy photographer or not. I was taking the issue with your rudeness inferring that he should leave merely because he voiced his feelings and opinions that did not match yours.
He is obviously moving past it, but it's a big change in his life. He might vent a little, but who doesn't? It still appears as though he was trying to contribute his perspective when it was legitimately asked for.
Further posts made replies specifically to what he said. You were just rude and told him to leave based on your assumption of his motivations.
That is harsh and uncalled for.
You said that he is welcome to his opinion and so are you. That is true, but you are suggesting that he should keep his opinions to himself while you listen to those who are of like mind with you. That's treacherous thinking. |
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09/26/2005 12:03:43 PM · #67 |
I guess I kind of thought it was rude that he joined DPC just to call most of us "weak end toy soldiers" and "monkeys".
I agree with JM, he can leave now (and it sucks to be him).
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09/26/2005 12:55:49 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by louddog:
I guess I kind of thought it was rude that he joined DPC just to call most of us "weak end toy soldiers" and "monkeys".
I agree with JM, he can leave now (and it sucks to be him). |
I dunno, i think he should stay... he makes a good example of how each of us could end up if we're not careful.
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09/26/2005 01:37:10 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
The boom of consumer digital cameras certainly has and will continue to impact the professional photography industry. The phenomenon, IMO, is a bit strange, but some people and businesses will settle for lower quality images for their needs for several reasons. The two main reasons are time and money. A business can produce an 'acceptable' image for a lot less money and in a lot less time if they do it themselves with their own camera equipment. I see it happening around here every day.
As a comparison, my mother used to own and operate her own typesetting business. She started in the mid 1970s and ran it until the mid 1990s. As personal computers became commonplace in home and business, people could do their own acceptable quality typesetting without paying a 3rd party to do the work. As laser and inkjet printers progressed in quality, her $100k typesetting system quickly became obsolete. I actually helped my parents haul that system to a dumpster when they closed shop because the system had zero resale value and it was only about 7 years old at the time.
The cycle will continue like this with photography. There will always be a market for the professional photogrpaher, and they will need to evolve in order to stay in business. |
Brilliant post and dead on. I work in the graphic design industry. More and more clients are taking the photography into their own hands. That trend will continue going forward. Like any other market that comes into a compression photographers are going to have to niche. They are going to have to find a sector of a market that they can control, but they client can't obtain internally.
Challenges face all businesses in these scarey economic times. Finding your own custom business model is invaluable now. Those who don't will be left behind.
Great post John... |
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09/26/2005 01:57:49 PM · #70 |
Just my thoughts...it seems to me that there are a lot of people out there (at least in my area) that would like something between the Walmart photos, and the high end pro's...that is the niche that I am aiming for. Also, if you can't afford $2000 for wedding photos why should you be left with nothing but a friend with a new camera...Some of the photography in my area is very high priced, and that leaves some of the market totally out of the market!!
I agree that things are changing, and that is a good thing, but it does mean that we have to ADAPT...as many have said, if you can't adapt...you will not survive.
I know that I am learning my photography right now...and to be honest, I don't think I am taking anything away from the pro's in my area...and if I were, they must be looking for something that the pro wasn't offering!! |
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09/26/2005 02:11:09 PM · #71 |
I'm not denying that what he said was rude and I'm not trying to defend what he said, only that he had a right to speak his mind when his was an opinion related to the thread.
On the other hand, at that point, I did not feel a need to view his profile. I have trouble conceiving of a person who joins a website with the sole purpse of searching out a topic like this and upon the first opening of his digital voice, being disturbing and rude.
I have checked now. Seems that's the case. My mind is boggled.
hmm. Gotta draw the line somewhere, but when I was growing up, everyone always told me, if someone is rude to you, do your best not to be rude back to them. If they are still rude, walk away.
There's more to being right than being right. The SC is there for problems with malcontents.
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09/26/2005 03:10:00 PM · #72 |
Yes the market for photography is changing, but it's not going away. There is, and will continue to be, a market for creative and high quality images. Anybody using imagery to differentiate their products will be looking for professional photographers to create those images. People looking to capture their lifestyle and the major events in their lives will seek out the brighest photographer available to them. There are two things that have change: 1) It is no longer enough to have the equipment and know how to produce standard quality images. 2) The people that wouldn't know a good image if it danced in front of them will have many less expensive way to get mediocre images.
I don't intend to sound uncaring to the professionals that are affected, but if you love photography and understand it's power to change how people see themselves and their world, the sight of a dSLR with a slow consumer zoom lens resting in the hands of a weekend warrior shouldn't generate more than a chuckle.
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09/26/2005 04:28:34 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by riot:
Originally posted by louddog:
I guess I kind of thought it was rude that he joined DPC just to call most of us "weak end toy soldiers" and "monkeys".
I agree with JM, he can leave now (and it sucks to be him). |
I dunno, i think he should stay... he makes a good example of how each of us could end up if we're not careful. |
I suspect 'he' has been here for some time. The bellyup user is new as of this thread... Possibly he didn't want to post his rant under his more long standing ID? Either that or he stumbled across dpc and felt like leaping into a rant right off the bat? That can't be very likely can it?
edit: Typo.
Message edited by author 2005-09-26 16:32:51.
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09/26/2005 05:23:04 PM · #74 |
Careful Chris!
To quote Paul Sloane.
" Lateral thinking puzzles are often strange situations which require an explanation. They are solved through a dialogue between the quizmaster who sets the puzzle and the solver or solvers who try to figure out the answer. The puzzles as stated generally do not contain sufficient information for the solver to uncover the solution. So a key part of the process is the asking of questions. The questions can receive one of only three possible answers - yes, no or irrelevant."
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09/27/2005 12:20:08 AM · #75 |
'Urro.
I'm not known to be that careful, but then your comments about weekend warriors on a website which harbours weak end toy soldiers in their hundreds was possibily a little foolhardy as well.
I wasn't thinking all that laterally by suggesting you'd leapt ID's to post to this thread, although it appears I might have been wrong on that count..
I got google to do some walking, and It would appear to me that your business issues have more to do with your location than your skill or otherwise.
Trying to get money out of the tourist stone for a photography business can surely only lead to a great deal of gnashing and wailing. (ref:
Here)
Smaller communities like the Isle of Wight must be brimming to almost overflow with 'arty' types, so potentially your weak end competition are at least as common as they are here. You'll probably be fighting it uphill on copyright issues as well, with what I imagie is a poor demographics household income wise.
I'd be interested to hear if you get any bites for the auction, I sold my businss (Electronics, not photography) via the web, and it was a long drawn out process to say the least.
Cheers, Chris H.
edit:broken link. :-)
Message edited by author 2005-09-27 00:43:55.
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