Should we ban cameras that spot edit?????

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/22/2002 04:36:44 PM · #1

Recently a thread has formed about whether we should allow spot editing, burning and dodging. This got me thinking -- i think we should BAN ALL CAMERAS that does spot editing. It's the only fair thing for the cameras that doesnt' do spot editing.

All digital cameras do sharpening, etc. If you take a photo, one with JPEG and the other with TIFF or RAW or whatever your camera's CCD/CMOS output, you'll notice a distinct difference.

First, the RAW image (the one directly from the sensor without any camera processing) would most likely be very dark. So, after contrast adjustment in photoshop and applying non-linear CURVES adjustment, you will get back something that you camera generates. But wait, the photo isn't sharp because straight from CCD with linear conversion, the pixels are INTERPOLATED (only one color per pixel from CCD, it has to come up with the other 2 colors from somewhere) and you always get a soft digital image after interpolation, always. (Sigma SD9 and Foveon might change that, but we'll see)

Now you can do a bit of unsharp masking and MAYBE you will recover, but often not. Why not? Because digital camera are smarter, at least some of the expensive ones are (Canon D60, D30, G2). If you do unsharp masking to ALL of your images, you will create NOISE where there is no EDGE. So what the camera does is that it applies an edge detection algorithm, then only sharpen the place where it needs sharpening. The effect of that in photoshop is to do a EDGE detection, use that as a MASK, and then do sharpening.

In other words, your camera is doing spot editing for you -- it selects which part of the image to do sharpening in order to reduce noise. This is why certain cameras have better noise ratio, it's not just the CCD/CMOS sensor, it's also due to its smarter sharpening algorithm.

SO, to be fair, let's ban all digital cameras that do spot editing, becuase it's simply not fair for the simpler cameras that doesn't even give you the option of color saturation or sharpening levels!

(I am being sarcastic of course, my point is, why shouldn't we allow spot editing when we allow cameras that spot edit???)

Tony

* This message has been edited by the author on 9/22/2002 4:36:57 PM.

* This message has been edited by the author on 9/22/2002 4:38:20 PM.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

09/22/2002 04:40:51 PM · #2

Curves, sharpening and and saturation adjustment are all legal edits, as is despeckle.

-Terry

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/22/2002 04:41:17 PM · #3

I'm not necessarily following all of your technical jargon here... but I see nothing in your post that would violate the DPC rules on these cameras. Since what you're describing with these cameras is applied to the whole image and is done by the camera, what's the problem?

Spot editing is more broadly defined here as dodging an area that came out too bright, or cloning out an undesirable area, etc. Those things are against the rules, and I don't know of a camera that allows you do to that kind of editing.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/22/2002 05:44:35 PM · #4

paganini is pointing out that some cameras perform operations "behind the scenes" which, if done manually to an image later, would violate current rules.

But I think this is different than cloning out undesirable elements or adding something from another photo...

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

09/22/2002 05:56:40 PM · #5

I can only smile ruefully and recount that I've been through
this discussion at length on here - people don't want to hear it.

I've designed imaging hardware in the past, written production
manipulation algorithms and compression routines, (not being boastful,
just establishing experience - though there seems to be a backlash
going on against anyone who knows what they are talking about
having a more valid opinion than someone who is just rehashing web
sites they've been to)

But mainly the technical issues are not the reason why there are
restrictions on filters et al, its the practical issue of establishing
if a picture is 'legal' or not. If we have more relaxed rules, then
anything is fair game and really hard to verify.

In fact with my G2, if I set the exposure to longer than 1 second,
the noise filtering kicks in and for every picture I take, two are
actually taken, the second used to subtract the sensor noise from the
image - so with my camera, I'm doing composites of multiple images.

Using similar arguments we moved on from no use of curves or single
colour channel adjustments, because I can again do that incamera with
a custom white balance - but it is a learning process for everyone.

There are still a lot of people who enter the challenges here that
could improve their entries a great deal, just by knowing how to apply
an S-curve to boost the contrast, how to resize correctly and then
how to sharpen carefully to provide a better entry

drewmedia

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/22/2002 06:02:43 PM · #6

Originally posted by paganini:
(I am being sarcastic of course, my point is, why shouldn't we allow spot editing when we allow cameras that spot edit???)

Your argument is ridiculous, and it uses asinine logic in an attempt to justify a (non-existent) part on behalf of the whole. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that you just like to argue.

Drew

KarenB

Canon EOS-70D

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

09/22/2002 06:51:42 PM · #7

Do people have *nothing* else to do than to make up silly rants? What is going on in this and other recent threads.
Really, people. Get on with the photography.
Jeez.

09/22/2002 07:10:44 PM · #8

The camera's selective sharpening IS violation of DPC rules (if you sharpen after doing a select via edge detection). Becacuse it's not done to the WHOLE iamge, it's selective.

It's only ridiculous, Drew, when people put up stupid photography rules that they don't know anything about.

Originally posted by alansfreed:
I'm not necessarily following all of your technical jargon here... but I see nothing in your post that would violate the DPC rules on these cameras. Since what you're describing with these cameras is applied to the whole image and is done by the camera, what's the problem?

Spot editing is more broadly defined here as dodging an area that came out too bright, or cloning out an undesirable area, etc. Those things are against the rules, and I don't know of a camera that allows you do to that kind of editing.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

09/22/2002 07:16:55 PM · #9

Originally posted by paganini:
The camera's selective sharpening IS violation of DPC rules (if you sharpen after doing a select via edge detection). Becacuse it's not done to the WHOLE iamge, it's selective.

It's only ridiculous, Drew, when people put up stupid photography rules that they don't know anything about.

You know, other than criticising people, I haven't noticed you contribute
anything constructive in any of the forums - do you have a point or do
you just like being rude to people ? If you wanted things to change
or improve, it wouldn't hurt you to add something, you know.

09/22/2002 07:22:03 PM · #10

Asinine Logic

There's one in every crowd

09/22/2002 07:26:21 PM · #11

My point is to allow dodging and burning and all the stuff that film photographers can do i nthis forum, that's it. But instead, people started to call other people egotistical, blah blah blah, and i simply won't stand for it. Why don't you blame Drew for the name calling? I didn't say anything in this thread other than the fact that cameras already do a lot of spot editing, so why couldn't people who use RAW mode do the same thing?

Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i]The camera's selective sharpening IS violation of DPC rules (if you sharpen after doing a select via edge detection). Becacuse it's not done to the WHOLE iamge, it's selective.

It's only ridiculous, Drew, when people put up stupid photography rules that they don't know anything about.

You know, other than criticising people, I haven't noticed you contribute
anything constructive in any of the forums - do you have a point or do
you just like being rude to people ? If you wanted things to change
or improve, it wouldn't hurt you to add something, you know.

[/i]

09/22/2002 07:28:28 PM · #12

It's not just this topic...it's EVERY topic you post to and people are sick of your attitude. Why don't you enter a weekly challenge and put your camera where your mouth is. We all know by now you can type:)

09/22/2002 07:44:11 PM · #13

Um, you're just mad because i said models look better when she is tall. :) admit it! that's why you're mad.

I find absolutely no interest in submitting to topics that are mainly in a studio setting. Fruits and vegetables, etc. Controlled settings don't interest me. Plus, the comments one get on here is quite silly. "Childhood" submission is one of them: "Gee, i hate your photograph because you made me depressed". Um, if my photograph evoked that much issues in you, then it's a successful photograph.

Originally posted by Shiiizzzam:
It's not just this topic...it's EVERY topic you post to and people are sick of your attitude. Why don't you enter a weekly challenge and put your camera where your mouth is. We all know by now you can type:)

09/22/2002 07:47:53 PM · #14

You talk like a 2 year old...you show your A$$ then whine "Drew called me a name" or "you're just made I think tall chick make better models"

Listen...in case you haven't noticed...we don't CARE what you think. Get it? Maybe go back under the rock you climbed out from under because we are sick of your attitude. Spend more time taking photos and less time causing yourself to have to go to time out:)

09/22/2002 07:51:45 PM · #15

Now who's being rude? You called me a bunch of names after I posted that I'd prefer the model being taller, becuase you were "offended" by the comment. Gee, couldn't we live in a politically non-correct society? If you feel that bad, go visit the fridge.

Originally posted by Shiiizzzam:
You talk like a 2 year old...you show your A$$ then whine "Drew called me a name" or "you're just made I think tall chick make better models"

Listen...in case you haven't noticed...we don't CARE what you think. Get it? Maybe go back under the rock you climbed out from under because we are sick of your attitude. Spend more time taking photos and less time causing yourself to have to go to time out:)