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04/06/2005 07:10:22 PM · #1 |
seeing how we get so anal about 'meeting the challenge', this is sweet...
my 8-yr-old 3rd grade daughter had a school project to make up a 'math' game with the following instructions:
1) pick a theme based on something studied so far.
2) on a sheet of poster board, draw a game trail.
3) label five trail spaces with special intructions (for example: "move ahead one space" or "miss a turn")
4) write the game directions on the poster board.
5) decorate and color your gameboard.
6) write 20 or more math problems on index cards
7) write the answers on the back of each card.
8) decorate the cards to show they belong to your game.
9) incude a spinner, die, or some way to move from space to space.
10) include 4 game pieces.
she picked Ancient Greece. she sketched and outline of greece, and decorated the board with some images she got from google images. she also typed up and printed out a handful of 'fun facts' that she mounted on construction paper. the game trail was made up of colored squares cut from construction paper. she drew icons of columns and urns on each of the game cards for decoration. lastly, she typed up the rules and glued them to the back of the board.
all in all, she put in about 4 hours on this, and i'll have to say it looked pretty damned good.
i was absolutely stunned when she brought home her grade: A-. not an A, not an A+, but an A-.
why? because of instruction #4. it said write the game instructions, not type. the teacher marked her down for that.
yeah, i was perturbed, but i also know that in the end things even out.
and they did...my daughter's entry was one of 3 picked to represent the 3rd grade at the local science fair.
so, even though her effort failed to meet one aspect of the teacher's directions, there were others who were able to see beyond her narrow definition and judge the project on its merits.
even at an early age, she is learning the cost of not following directions anally, as well as the benefits of going the extra mile.
just thought i'd share. |
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04/06/2005 07:26:19 PM · #2 |
Heh, the teacher needs a swift kick in the arse, LOL.
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04/06/2005 07:28:56 PM · #3 |
Oops, I was going to reply to this but got distracted making my ribbon shaped playing counters. Still need to label my five trail spaces though ... "receive a 1 vote from a troll, miss a turn".
:D
Congrats to your daughter. Hope the science fair goes well.
Message edited by author 2005-04-06 19:29:18.
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04/06/2005 07:31:38 PM · #4 |
| Good post, Skip. I have these discussions with my son all the time about following the directions, attention to detail, etc. I occasionally disagree with the rules and I tell him that, but then I tell him everyone has to follow the rules whether they agree or not or suffer the consequences. I follow that up with a "pick your battles" lecture. ;-) |
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04/06/2005 07:32:43 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Heh, the teacher needs a swift kick in the arse, LOL. |
I disagree.
The teacher has objectives behind his/her assignments.
If one of the objectives is to help students improve their hand-writing through spacial relationships, then typing (though it may look more pretty), would defeat the objective. There may be other objectives, too--have you ever seen the "Plan ahea/
d" posters?
BTW, it's still very nice that her efforts were recognized on a different level. |
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04/06/2005 07:36:16 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
The teacher has objectives behind his/her assignments.
If one of the objectives is to help students improve their hand-writing through spacial relationships, then typing (though it may look more pretty), would defeat the objective. |
Then the challenge description should have been more specific and should have read handwrite, rather than something which could be interpreted as including/allowing typewrite.
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04/06/2005 07:41:34 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by bod:
Originally posted by KaDi:
The teacher has objectives behind his/her assignments.
If one of the objectives is to help students improve their hand-writing through spacial relationships, then typing (though it may look more pretty), would defeat the objective. |
Then the challenge description should have been more specific and should have read handwrite, rather than something which could be interpreted as including/allowing typewrite. |
this is exactly why my wife and i typically bite our lips about this stuff. kpriest is dead-on about 'picking your battles.' if this was a semester grade that was a B because of this, i'd probably be scheduling a chat... |
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04/06/2005 07:41:53 PM · #8 |
Congrats to your daughter Skip. On another note my oldest daughter is in 2nd grade and got counted off on some of her homework a couple of months ago because she wrote her name in cursive and didn't print it.
?????????????????????????????
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04/06/2005 07:42:36 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by bod:
Then the challenge description should have been more specific and should have read handwrite, rather than something which could be interpreted as including/allowing typewrite. |
What if she had first typed, then dodged & burned it to LOOK like it was handwritten? Would that have worked? |
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04/06/2005 07:43:35 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by rex07734:
Congrats to your daughter Skip. On another note my oldest daughter is in 2nd grade and got counted off on some of her homework a couple of months ago because she wrote her name in cursive and didn't print it.
????????????????????????????? |
sounds like the same teacher LOL!
i'll pass along the platitudes, and let you know how she makes out! thanks, all! |
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04/06/2005 07:44:28 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by aronya1:
Originally posted by bod:
Then the challenge description should have been more specific and should have read handwrite, rather than something which could be interpreted as including/allowing typewrite. |
What if she had first typed, then dodged & burned it to LOOK like it was handwritten? Would that have worked? |
hahahhhah...well, she did spend a bit of time wrangling over which font to use... |
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04/06/2005 07:50:02 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by bod:
Then the challenge description should have been more specific and should have read ... |
hehe..."challenge description".
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04/06/2005 08:04:15 PM · #13 |
Sorry, "write" still means write.
"Type" is something different.
And before I call LaurieLBlack in on this one, I'll say that children whose parents conference with them frequently, do better--not just in school, but on the whole.
And before anyone calls the dogs out:
1. Are there bad teachers? Yes.
2. Are there unreasonable teachers? Yes.
3. Are there un-fair teachers?? Absolutely!
4. Have I had any of the above? Yes. Yes. Yes.
Why do we have forum discussions about what is expected/intended or will be voted up/down, if we haven't learned that clarification of the goals is important?
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04/06/2005 08:09:23 PM · #14 |
| As Skip said in the original post, "in the end things even out" - I point that out when my son shows me a graded paper and I see mistakes the teacher overlooked. :) |
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04/06/2005 08:13:00 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
If one of the objectives is to help students improve their hand-writing ... |
... they should use the specific term "hand-write" as you did (and as they specify in sweepstakes entry forms) rather than the ambiguious term "write" which means both the composition and the physical recording of the words. The teacher should admit that the directions were insufficiently specific to assure the apparently desired result, and grant full credit. |
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04/06/2005 08:52:35 PM · #16 |
"Write" generally refers to handwriting.
If the teacher had wanted to leave this open to allow typed entries then she may have used the word "list".
...and yes we're being pedantic again :)
bazz. |
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04/06/2005 09:45:06 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by sir_bazz:
"Write" generally refers to handwriting.
If the teacher had wanted to leave this open to allow typed entries then she may have used the word "list".
...and yes we're being pedantic again :) |
hahha! this is exactly why i brought this up! there really are two sides (or more) to every interpretation; it's just how we deal with it when someone else is doing the interpretting, regardless of whether it's a 'dpc challenge' or a school project.
Originally posted by KaDi:
I'll say that children whose parents conference with them frequently, do better--not just in school, but on the whole. |
oh, believe me, we are INVOLVED--but, we're not the type of parents who are always running interference for our kids. i'd rather them get knocked down, knowing we're behind them, and ready to help dust off and get back up, rather than have them growing up not knowing how to take care of themselves. life is what it is. you're never too young to start learning how to deal with it.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The teacher should admit that the directions were insufficiently specific to assure the apparently desired result, and grant full credit. |
thanks for the support, paul! as is, though, i think having the project picked as one of the top three is vindication enough ;-) |
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04/06/2005 10:33:35 PM · #18 |
My dad used to tell a (probably apocryphal) story of a college professor and a "difficult" student, who was asked how they'd "determine the height of a certain tall campus building* using a barometer."
Answer #1 (rejected):
I'd tie a long rope to it and carefully lower it from the roof to the ground, and then measure how much rope was used.
Answer #2 (rejected):
I walk up the stairs and mark off successive "barometer-heights" which I'd count on the descending trip. Measuring the barometer and some simple multiplication should give the result.
Answer #3 (rejected):
I'd drop the barometer from the top of the building, and time how long it took to hit the ground. Applying formulae developed by Newton and Galileo, plus an allowance for air resistance should give the result.
Answer #4 (rejected):
I'd position the barometer and take a sighting to line up the top of the barometer with the top of the building. Knowing the height of the barometer and the distance to the base of the building should allow the derivation of the answer using Trigonometry.
Answer #5 (rejected):
I'd go to the superintendent of the building and say "I'll give you this very expensive barometer if you'll tell me how tall this building is."
*Probably this one ...
Message edited by author 2005-04-06 22:39:07. |
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04/06/2005 11:32:05 PM · #19 |
This is a universal problem with no easy answer: the challenge as specified and then the interpretation. Not everyone responds in a similar manner due to temperement of character. Often, there is no clear cut explanation of what is wanted. Yes, it would be an ideal world if there was a closer coupling between the worded challenge and its execution true to the intent, but then we are trapped by the use of language and many of us do not excell in its finer points. Even those that do disagree because the written or spoken words often runs away from our control. That is at times we specify what we want only to find out that the words do not carry the full conviction of our meaning and what we said is open to different interpretations.
Well, I make it a point to always go against the grain and to find the weakness in the instructions to allow poetic flight. This is who I am and I never vote down any deviation that goes near the edge of the meaning of the challenge.
In this case of your daughter, the fact that she typed the info lends the work a more complete artistic look from a graphical point of view and while it is important to write, it is also important to type in this computer age. The teacher could have decided the matter by ascertaining if her writing abilities are satisfactory and if so, then not marking down for the extra feauture of the typing.
Now, iof the teacher wanted to be more specific she should have have said write by hand, because if you are told to write so and so a letter it matters little if you hand write it or type it since no qualifier was used. To say that write and type is different is true, but one can not deny that write could also mean type, though the inverse is not true.
Glad to hear that the poster was chosen as this drives home the point that often the intent of the challenge can receive an unforseen treatment and vie with the top entries.
Here at DPC there is a school that is fanatical to the letter. Take for example the challenge, "New Years Resolution" Well, the intsructions asked that you title it with the resolution.
Well, I decided to mock the folly of those that grow serious and make such resolutions only to abandon the entire thing withing weeks. I did a double exposure of a face and skull to prove this point and named it, "Wasting away in Resolutionville" Yes, I could have named it "I resolve to do better morphs in 2005" but why? to satisfy the challenge?
Well, here I took poetic license hoping that others would see it.
The very first comment from a voter came in, "And what is the resolution?" This was a very low vote. The resolution is one who has made many yearly resolution and never kept them. Therefore the resolution is wasting away... Well, many voters felt that there is no clear resolution specified in the image, yet this is the end result of many of our resolutions. I for one, accept the overall vote and have high respect for it, but on some images I defend my position because there is a literal and an artistic interpretation to all challenges and it all hangs on how the voter interprets. This site is divided by left and right brain voters and they each vote their conscience.
It appears to me that some people are very strict in the art of interpretation and my advise is that such strictness curtails creativity. They will always think twice of outdoing themselves because the urge may be too near the outer edge. I am not advocating pushing the envelope to a fracture, but nothing is gained by walking the safe line. |
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