Should this be DQed? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/06/2005 06:11:22 PM · #26

I know that at least one person has won a ribbon in a color challenge by using this exact process, but I can't remember which one. It prompted a ruckus at the time. I think this might be it, but I could be wrong.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/06/2005 06:12:52 PM · #27

Presenting a rough, tough yellow CAT in pink is a particular type of humor, I think "Absurd" would be the closest term, where a normal scene has one major change. The example which first came to mind was the hippos in tutus segment of the original Fantasia.

In this case, the color shift could also be accomplished with special lighting (expensive), a set of color filters (expensive), a few cans of spray paint (expensive if you get caught).

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/06/2005 06:15:52 PM · #28

Here ya' go... a red ribbon in the Green challenge. Could you be any more obvious than this?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/06/2005 06:19:20 PM · #29

More obvious than what? : )

Especially at small sizes, most people's brain will automatically color-correct such "memory colors" to look "normal." Those of us with a color defect will do it even more easily, but it happens to everyone, for example, when you wear sunglasses.

Message edited by author 2005-04-06 18:20:24.

Gringo

Nikon D2X

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

04/06/2005 06:22:11 PM · #30

I don't find this a "cop-out" at all.
I see it as a very creative approach to calling attention to the color green.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

04/06/2005 06:22:14 PM · #31

Here's my perspective; when I saw the "pink" challenge, I immediately wanted to do something "strange". I wasn't especially interested in finding some "real" pink and shooting a shot of it. No, what I wanted to do, my "creative choice", was to mess with people's expectations and perceptions by altering something into pink, exactly as was just shown in the example that began this thread. The sheer shock of a piece of PINK heavy equipment is quite intriguing to me. In fact, if memory serves, one of the high-placing images actually DID this...

In my case, I took a foodstuff, hot peppers, that is normally red and shifted the red to pink. Not a huge change, but to me an amusing one. The voters weren't especially amused, evidently, as I did rather poorly, but I enjoyed making the image and I don't think that it was "cheating" in any way, shape or form.

In fact, to tell the truth, I don't understand why people get so upset about this sort of thing. What we do here, fundamentally, both in creating images and in voting upon them, is make aesthetic choices. leave me free to make my choices in the creation of the image, and I'll reciprocate by allowing you to make YOUR choice in how you evaluate what I did.

I'm particularly amused when I consider that had the photographer actually gotten permission to PAINT the damned crane pink, and done so, he'd be applauded for the breadth of his vision and ambition, probably by the same people that criticize the manipulated version as being somehow "cheating" by manipulating reality. I ask you, in all sincerity, what the HECK is the difference between altering reality before you shoot it or after you shoot it? We'd be a pretty poor excuse for a creative community, IMO, if we didn't allow people the liberty of "setting up" shots, and that frequently includes altering things for the purpose of the shoot. And conceptually I see no real difference, specifically on this color issue, how the change in color is accomplished.

I mean, I could have PAINTED my peppers pink, but it never even occurred to me to do this. In fact, in retrospect, it would have been EASIER to paint them pink... I think I went through 10-12 versions of this image before I settled on one that worked for me, that had the pink and white that i wanted. This took a LOT more skill than painting the peppers would have done.

One of the winning shots in this challenge, if I recall correctly, had lipstick kisses "painted" on a young man's bashful face. The photographer may very well have altered the exact nature of the pink when she did her desaturating and color correction; would she really have done "wrong" if she'd painted the kisses with a red lipstick she had handy and then shifted the red to pink? I consider such thinking incredibly anal...

Robt.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

04/06/2005 06:45:19 PM · #32

Color-shifting has a long history at DPC. I entered this one...

...as my fourth entry in May 2003. It was almost certainly not the first color-shifted entry, but at the time it was pretty unusual. It was done in what would be equivalent to basic editing today, which is why the bit of ugliness on the stem of the yellow pepper.
Can anyone find an earlier case of hue-shifting an object on DPC?
I definitely felt - and still feel - that the hue shift to meet the challenge was quite justified, since it was conceived that way, not a found shot with a tweak to meet the challenge.

04/06/2005 07:00:37 PM · #33

Originally posted by kirbic:

Color-shifting has a long history at DPC. I entered this one...

...as my fourth entry in May 2003. It was almost certainly not the first color-shifted entry, but at the time it was pretty unusual. It was done in what would be equivalent to basic editing today, which is why the bit of ugliness on the stem of the yellow pepper.
Can anyone find an earlier case of hue-shifting an object on DPC?
I definitely felt - and still feel - that the hue shift to meet the challenge was quite justified, since it was conceived that way, not a found shot with a tweak to meet the challenge.

Hey, cool! You have one of Ming's knives! I got one too. I actually know him fairly well...

Oh yeah, nice hue-shifting, glad we share an appreciation for peppers. See also my Stock entry...

Robt.

samtrundle

Canon EOS-50D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

04/06/2005 07:15:02 PM · #34

Well I know I'm just repeating a lot of what others have said with that - but just for a specific example of where the only reason a photo met a challenge was a colour shift - here's one (and a pretty successful one at that).

I've got no problem with the editing in shots like this.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

04/06/2005 07:31:35 PM · #35

Originally posted by scalvert:

Here ya' go... a red ribbon in the Green challenge. Could you be any more obvious than this?

I never said the photo should be DQed. In a post before that one I said "not meeting the challenge is not grounds for DQ". But lets take your example here. Just because it was done does not make it right. The green challenge details were: Details: In honor of St. Patrick's Day, photograph the color green. Good luck!. Did the photographer photograph something green? NO! The description did not say post process the color green.
So what I'm saying is that the photograph should NOT be DQ'ed with the current rules but I feel it comes close to "violating the spirit of the rules".
The term "spirit of the rules" seems to apply in some ways and not in others.
That is all I'm saying.
NOTE: yes, hue/saturation should be allowed but not when you are told to take a picture of a color and you have to post process to achieve that color [Subject/Major element].

Message edited by author 2005-04-06 19:37:15.

justinbrook

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

04/06/2005 07:58:09 PM · #36

Originally posted by saintaugust:

i don't think it should be allowed for that challenge.

it is unfair to those who actually went out and shot something pink. if you increased saturation to enhance the pink, thats fine, but for this challenge i think its cheating.

my 2 cents.

I agree. Even though it follows the rules the photographer would be cheating themselves. Instead of finding something pink it's making something pink. If we all did that the challenge would be ruined.IMHO

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

04/06/2005 08:20:44 PM · #37

Well, here's another two pennies worth. Being a literal lass, I searched out pink. It happened to be a pink rhododendron; it also happened to be the day after a rain. The perfect one was in a weed patch amid a bunch of brambles. I went after it, got the image, a good soaking and a nasty scratch. But I had my pink entry. It scored a decent mid-range number.

And a pink bit of equipment, the pink obtained by use of a slider, placed high.

Am I annoyed? Naw. Next time, though, I'll probably use a slider instead of a trek through the brambles.

I'm not sure this is photography as I know it. But then, what do I know!

04/06/2005 08:24:13 PM · #38

Originally posted by samtrundle:

Hate to disappoint ya sam, but that was a straight shot Setzler made. Virtually no editing.

Robt.

04/06/2005 08:41:47 PM · #39

Originally posted by scalvert:

Here ya' go... a red ribbon in the Green challenge. Could you be any more obvious than this?

Thanks for pointing this one out.

My motivation for starting this discussion was to try and determine if the principle of changing the image fundamentally from the original to the final works the same for extreme color shifts as it does for extreme cloning which might make it the basis for DQing an image.

This is a perfect example of changing the nature of an image through a color shift and a much better example than mine.

I think it is good to think about and discuss these things because it helps people to solidify in their minds what is not allowed. That should help cut back on DQs. It is always very sad when a ribbon winning image gets DQed. It is a bummmer to DQ it and a big bummer to the affected photographer. If we can cut back on that everyone has a lot more fun.

So what do the rest of you think about this one?

04/06/2005 08:49:24 PM · #40

Originally posted by kirbic:

Color-shifting has a long history at DPC. I entered this one...

Fritz... I'm glad you pointed out this one. Barbara had intended to ask you specifically how you did that while you were here. Apparently, you two had such a great time talking while I lay suffering for long periods of time with a wash cloth over my head that she forgot to ask. :)

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

04/06/2005 08:51:39 PM · #41

Originally posted by justinbrook:

Originally posted by saintaugust:
i don't think it should be allowed for that challenge.

it is unfair to those who actually went out and shot something pink. if you increased saturation to enhance the pink, thats fine, but for this challenge i think its cheating.

my 2 cents.

I agree. Even though it follows the rules the photographer would be cheating themselves. Instead of finding something pink it's making something pink. If we all did that the challenge would be ruined.IMHO

If you review some of the color challenges you see a lot of just that type of thing. You get a lot of really ugly images to suffer through that way. :)

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

04/06/2005 08:54:19 PM · #42

Originally posted by bear_music:

Originally posted by samtrundle:
Well I know I'm just repeating a lot of what others have said with that - but just for a specific example of where the only reason a photo met a challenge was a colour shift - here's one (and a pretty successful one at that).

I've got no problem with the editing in shots like this.

Hate to disappoint ya sam, but that was a straight shot Setzler made. Virtually no editing.

Robt.

That photo is totally edited. The girl's tights were yellow in the original photo.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

04/06/2005 08:57:20 PM · #43

Originally posted by bear_music:

Here is where I am having a problem with changing the hue to fit the challenge. Under â��advanced editingâ�� rules the following is stated:
Selective Editing: Adjustments can be made selectively to your photo. Cloning, dodging, burning, etc. to improve your photo or remove imperfections or minor distracting elements, etc. is acceptable. However, using any editing tools to duplicate, create, or move major elements of your photograph is not permitted.

As I see it if you take a picture of this girl and she is wearing yellow then during post processing you change it to pink I feel that does not constitute using adjustment tools to improve your photo or remove imperfections or minor distracting elements. I feel that her clothing which was yellow is a major element and by using hue to change it to pink the photographer has created a pink outfit.

As the old saying goes, â��a picture is worth a 1000 wordsâ��. Which of the pictures below would of faired better in the â��pinkâ�� challenge.

The reason I changed her outfit was because of the photographers description: went to the circus with my sister and her kids today... This girl was wearing yellow until photoshop took over... Thanks to Zeuszen for helping me find a title for this photo :)

Message edited by author 2005-04-06 21:01:13.

04/06/2005 09:02:31 PM · #44

It was unfortunate I picked entering a color challenge for my hypothetical example. That guided the discussion into the "meet the challenge" realm and that is not my intended purpose with this discussion.

What I wanted to investigate was the idea that an extreme color shift could get an image DQed in much the same way that cloning can by fundamentally changing the final image from the original.

Conclusion based on discussion:
Color shifting of any amount on any or all compositional elements whether major or minor and for any reason is allowed and will not result in a DQ.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

04/06/2005 09:04:24 PM · #45

An interesting and important thread topic - we have split opinions (big shock) but the official verdict is that, since we have now seen many precedents set, the edit in question is not DQ'able. Color challenges will always be somewhat moot because of the acceptability of this type of editing. And not only will they not be DQ'd, they will not be voted down because of these types of edits and could win ribbons even if they don't meet the challenge rules - literally or in spirit.

One possible resolution is for DPC to be extremely specific in color challenges as in the rubber duck challenge.

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

04/06/2005 09:11:56 PM · #46

Originally posted by sfalice:

I like your attitude. I feel the same. I,too, have spent a great deal of time treking through the brambles to get pictures and come home bloodied and beaten for my efforts... not to mention horrible allergy attacks. But this Spring has been one of the finest displays of wildflowers in Southern Arizona in many years, maybe the best in half a century.

It may be true that someone can get their effect through PS, but I think we had more 'fun' getting ours. :)

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

04/06/2005 09:51:54 PM · #47

Originally posted by kpriest:

And not only will they not be DQ'd, they will not be voted down because of these types of edits and could win ribbons even if they don't meet the challenge rules - literally or in spirit.

I would disagree with this. I think they will get voted down when they are detected. Mine scored fairly well because it was not detectable and the photo was clean.