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03/10/2005 12:23:05 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
But I'm doing this from a secular point of view - I'm perfectly capable of doing it without such incentive.
Great discussion! I love it. |
Yeah, christian or not...it's clear that an afterlife 'reward' is a lame reason to love others.
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03/10/2005 12:35:14 PM · #152 |
I was raised in a southern baptist home, hellfire and brimstone and all. I also had a devout catholic grandmother who lived with us, and we watched the Pope every available television moment. I was pretty much surrounded with christianity as I grew up. I lived in a small town (population 513) and nearly everyone in the town was about the same. Of course, there was a lot of beer drinking and rebel rousing going on (which is pretty much a religion in small town Texas, but that's another thread entirely). When I got to college, I was surrounded by so many other cultures and people and religious points of view that I found myself fascinated...and I questioned a lot of what I was brought up to believe. I don't know if any one belief system is wrong or right. I'm glad I don't have to believe any particular way and that I can study all religions and their views of the afterlife equally, if I were inclined to do so.
I was taught about heaven and hell in the afterlife. If you're good, you go to heaven. If you are evil, you burn in hell. Maybe so, maybe not. All I know is that I try not to spend too much time worrying about it. I have way too much to do and to accomplish in my current life to worry about what my afterlife is going to be, if indeed it is at all.
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03/10/2005 12:38:19 PM · #153 |
I am a Christian and do believe in the afterlife.
I was with my mother when she passed away. She had a massive heart attack and just seconds before she took her last breathe she very clearly said "No not yet" I feel she was speaking to someone other than any of us here on earth. |
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03/10/2005 12:40:00 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Except any and all "religions" that teach about the afterlife all have guidelines on how to get to the 'good' part of it. So technically speaking (in a candid manner) if you don't believe in any religion at all (not buddhism, christianity, judaism, etc etc) then you've got no chance for anything but bad stuff in the afterlife. I'm just pointing out the obvious here. |
I think you're making a circular argument here. Your statement is only true if you start with the assumption that the afterlife has anything at all to do with what organized religion teaches. So it's true from within your belief system. But what if the afterlife (if one exists) isn't related in any way to what you've been taught it is? |
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03/10/2005 12:42:45 PM · #155 |
| Hey Bren! Nice to see you back here; I hope you're feeling better. :) |
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03/10/2005 12:51:41 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Except any and all "religions" that teach about the afterlife all have guidelines on how to get to the 'good' part of it. So technically speaking (in a candid manner) if you don't believe in any religion at all (not buddhism, christianity, judaism, etc etc) then you've got no chance for anything but bad stuff in the afterlife. I'm just pointing out the obvious here. |
I think you're making a circular argument here. Your statement is only true if you start with the assumption that the afterlife has anything at all to do with what organized religion teaches. So it's true from within your belief system. But what if the afterlife (if one exists) isn't related in any way to what you've been taught it is? |
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Judith is correct here. Let me add the following. The moment that we enter into a belief system we limit the general understanding of the big picture. If you are religious, and nothing wrong with it, you place a fence around you. If you are not religious you also place a fence around you. If you are agnostic you tend to see more but somewhere along the way you will reach certain conclusions and will fall into a mode of thought that again places a fence around you. That darn fence is what make people argue about what is in their camp and serves also as a hindrance to comprehension.
No one camp can say they have the truth for it illudes us all. Like i said, I believe in a creator but not in a personal God. But then, that may be the fence I have drawn around me. What is your fence? |
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03/10/2005 12:55:24 PM · #157 |
I have zero belief in an 'afterlife'. This life is it, so I make the most of it. I also admit, I don't know what happens after death. Neither does anyone else.
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03/10/2005 12:57:44 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Do dogs have souls or spirits? |
Since faith, by nature, is the way we answer questions for ourselves that have no scientific explanation, it becomes as subjective as Canon vs. Nikon. But as a dog owner, I believe on faith that all animals do indeed have souls. They are no less worthy than man in the creator's proverbial eye. If I had my guess, they may even be more worthy as I'm sure many dog people will attest.
If there's an afterlife, it would be hell without dogs.
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03/10/2005 12:59:52 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
If you are religious, and nothing wrong with it, you place a fence around you. If you are not religious you also place a fence around you. What is your fence? |
I have a great big fence, but I make sure to leave lots of gates unlocked. ;-) |
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03/10/2005 01:00:33 PM · #160 |
I've never understood how one can simply "choose" to believe something. For me there has to be some sort of empirical evidence, something, that causes me to accept the tenets of one system vs. another. For example, I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, based on evidence of what's happened every 24 hours for all of recorded history (or at least as long as I've observed it). I've never seen any evidence of the existence of any "god", ...unless one counts as evidence things and events for which we have no rational explanation. (Calling something a "miracle" is just another way of saying "I have no idea of the cause".)
By definition, the only afterlife is death. What happens to the life that was "me" during and after the event called dying -- now that's the real question. Until someone comes back with the evidence, how can we know?
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03/10/2005 01:00:52 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
If you are religious, and nothing wrong with it, you place a fence around you. If you are not religious you also place a fence around you. What is your fence? |
I have a great big fence, but I make sure to leave lots of gates unlocked. ;-) |
One of your best quotes yet, Shannon!!
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03/10/2005 01:04:44 PM · #162 |
This line of logic also implies that there is no "absolute truth". As a christian I believe in absolute truth. This doesn't limit my general understanding of the big picture ... for me, it IS the big picture.
See what I mean? But that doesn't mean I don't understand other points of view (I was an athiest for 20 years).
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Judith is correct here. Let me add the following. The moment that we enter into a belief system we limit the general understanding of the big picture. If you are religious, and nothing wrong with it, you place a fence around you. If you are not religious you also place a fence around you. If you are agnostic you tend to see more but somewhere along the way you will reach certain conclusions and will fall into a mode of thought that again places a fence around you. That darn fence is what make people argue about what is in their camp and serves also as a hindrance to comprehension. |
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03/10/2005 01:07:27 PM · #163 |
Graphicfunk, I expected more from you...you make a huge assumption with your last quote about the fences. That assumption is that it is not possible to be guided by one bigger than yourself in this journey of life.
For argument's sake, let's pretend that jesus really is guiding me and changing me throughout this life. An agnostic would be no better off simply because he/she has not 'built a fence'. What you may call 'building a fence', I may call 'holding a hand'.
I understand what you're saying, but even in your last statement you reveal the paradigm within which you constructed it, limiting it's usefulness for others.
I would suggest that it's important not to build fences...but subscribing to a belief doesn't mean you've built a fence...nor does being an agnostic mean you haven't.
Edit: I see that hopper has 'jumped' to the point and said what I meant to say with less words. Kudos.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 13:08:09.
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03/10/2005 01:09:23 PM · #164 |
I suppose that after following this thread for a while I have a couple questions. Does it matter if there is an afterlife? Should our action be modified by it's absence or presence? I personaly feel that you should enjoy each momment, live life to it's fullest and let others live theres the sameway. In the end as far a we are capable of knowing for a fact we all end up the same. Dust... this much is undisputed. Enjoy your lover, your children and freinds. Never waist a day you only have so precious few. As I once heard it stated. It is not how long you live it is how much you live in a lifetime. I may only live to be 30 but I would be able to say I have lived a happy life. I saw many wonderfull things and have very few regrets of how the time I was given was used. Is there a heaven...yes were all ready there. If we would all just stop worrying and hateing long enough to enjoy it.
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03/10/2005 01:10:45 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
I was able with the help of self hypnosis to have an out of body experience. This offers a confirmation that life may concurrently exist in many different dimensions at once. |
Good to hear from you Mr. Cuesta. Hope you are back full-force soon.
As for your observations, if I didn't believe that Jesus is the Christ (an awesome fact for me), then I would probably approach the whole concept in a manner very similar to your statements. In fact, even as a Christian, I do personally tend to agree with your statement above that life concurrently exists in many dimensions. Personally, I think that the spiritual side is in a whole other realm, therefore the concept of the locations of Heaven and Hell is moot.
(Are there any scientists on the board here that can discuss the concept of "dark matter" with some expertise? I do know that I have read in mainstream scientific publications that scientists believe that what, 80 or 90% of the mass of the universe is unaccounted for and so labeled "dark matter"? That makes our known Universe and its Laws actually the rare oddity in comparison! That concept might give a different perspective to the mysteriousness of spirituality if the two ideas are merged).
This Old Testament story in 2 Kings is just such an example of how I think the spiritual world exists concurrently with our own.
2 Kings 6:17
"15 Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
"16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
"17 Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see " And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. "
Just a thought.
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03/10/2005 01:15:56 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by nsbca7:
If Jesus is the embodiment of God̢۪s love for man then the only way to heaven is through Love.
The only reason this is not taught by the pastors, preachers, reverends and priests is to keep the pews (and the coffers) full. |
You haven't mentioned anything about where this new Love would come from? The point is that pure love comes from God and His Son when you're talking about the Christian faith. |
Who said anything about new love. And what is the Christian faith? To me being a Christian is to try to be like Jesus as much as one possibly can. If Jesus is the embodiment of God's love then we should try to fill our hearts with love. It is all very simple. Why such a need for the complicated. As far as other religions go perhaps God came to the people of other cultures in ways that they would better accept and understand. I don't know. And niether has anyone else that I have ever spoken to been given divine knowledge. (But I'm not sure about that either)
I hear self proclaimed Christians speak of so much that is un-Christlike in the name of Christianity be be almost sickening. Did you know that the invasion of Iraq was ordained by God? |
Iraq war ordained by God??? That's quite unfortunate that some preacher has interjected his political views into his Bible exposition...what a load of crap.
As for the understanding of Christianity, you are correct when you say Christ is the embodiment of Love and we are to strive to be that as well. Where your argument leaves the reservation is when you propose that maybe God created other religions to reach Heaven. Clearly you have misinterpreted or not studied enough the tenents of Christianity. The basis of Christianity is love and a Christlike nature, but as someone said earlier, the exclusivity of the Gospel is why he was so hated and abused. No where in the Bible is there a doctrinal/theological statement implying that maybe Jesus isn't the only way or that in fact God the Father mas made some other side arrangements with Buddhists or Islamic faiths. |
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03/10/2005 01:16:46 PM · #167 |
[quote=thatcloudthere] Graphicfunk, I expected more from you...you make a huge assumption with your last quote about the fences. That assumption is that it is not possible to be guided by one bigger than yourself in this journey of life.
For argument's sake, let's pretend that jesus really is guiding me and changing me throughout this life. An agnostic would be no better off simply because he/she has not 'built a fence'. What you may call 'building a fence', I may call 'holding a hand'.
I understand what you're saying, but even in your last statement you reveal the paradigm within which you constructed it, limiting it's usefulness for others.
I would suggest that it's important not to build fences...but subscribing to a belief doesn't mean you've built a fence...nor does being an agnostic mean you haven't.
Edit: I see that hopper has 'jumped' to the point and said what I meant to say with less words. Kudos. [/quote++++++++++++
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Your point is well taken but consider the following:
Whom do you know that has the answers to life. Who holds the absolute truth. We just do not know. The man that argues against God has no evidence to support his view. Those that argue for God can not present the evidence. There are no absolutes thruth when it comes to any of these answers. We simply shape our beliefs to suit our own personal experiences. There are no schools of thought that are superior to the others because they know more.
I do accept a creator because I can not see how consciousness can be born out of nothing. However, outside of this I can not verufy anything else except to show respect for my fellow man in whatever it is he choses to believe.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 13:24:29. |
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03/10/2005 01:21:13 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by nova:
...I have read in mainstream scientific publications that scientists believe that what, 80 or 90% of the mass of the universe is unaccounted for and so labeled "dark matter"? That makes our known Universe and its Laws actually the rare oddity in comparison! |
I'm an amateur astronomer too. Dark matter is just the stuff (dust, gas, asteroids, planets, etc.) that isn't illuminated by nuclear fusion or ionization. There's lots of it, but it's still part of our known universe and not especially odd. Dark energy might be a different story, or it might be as simple as a mathematical revision to our current understanding of gravity. |
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03/10/2005 01:21:37 PM · #169 |
I'd like to propose that God (or "god"), being all powerful and all-knowing, come down (or "over") here, post a reply on this message board and clear the matter up for all of us. There's just too much at stake (and I DON'T mean DPC ribbons).
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03/10/2005 01:21:59 PM · #170 |
This way of life assumes our purpose on this planet is personal happiness. In the christian faith, our life is service. Service to God, and service to each other ... it says nothing of personal happiness.
Though, I must admit it's what I seek the most :)
Originally posted by tristalisk:
I suppose that after following this thread for a while I have a couple questions. Does it matter if there is an afterlife? Should our action be modified by it's absence or presence? I personaly feel that you should enjoy each momment, live life to it's fullest and let others live theres the sameway. In the end as far a we are capable of knowing for a fact we all end up the same. Dust... this much is undisputed. Enjoy your lover, your children and freinds. Never waist a day you only have so precious few. As I once heard it stated. It is not how long you live it is how much you live in a lifetime. I may only live to be 30 but I would be able to say I have lived a happy life. I saw many wonderfull things and have very few regrets of how the time I was given was used. Is there a heaven...yes were all ready there. If we would all just stop worrying and hateing long enough to enjoy it. |
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03/10/2005 01:24:21 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
However, outside of this I can not verify anything else except to show respect for my fellow man in whatever it is he choses to believe. |
I also respect those who believe otherwise, but I can certainly verify many spiritual things. You're right, I can't present evidence to you but many of those around me would bear witness to the changes in me since relinquishing control of my life to the creator.
I really am being made new. I am convinced of that.
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03/10/2005 01:25:49 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
I'd like to propose that God (or "god"), being all powerful and all-knowing, come down (or "over") here, post a reply on this message board and clear the matter up for all of us. There's just too much at stake (and I DON'T mean DPC ribbons). |
yeah see, He did that already. He didn't post on any message boards but he did travel around for years being cast out of towns and eventually nailed to a cross. How quickly we forget. |
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03/10/2005 01:29:01 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
I'd like to propose that God (or "god"), being all powerful and all-knowing, come down (or "over") here, post a reply on this message board and clear the matter up for all of us. There's just too much at stake (and I DON'T mean DPC ribbons). |
yeah see, He did that already. He didn't post on any message boards but he did travel around for years being cast out of towns and eventually nailed to a cross. How quickly we forget. |
That's what they say, isn't it? I haven't seen any evidence of it.
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03/10/2005 01:30:56 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
yeah see, He did that already. He didn't post on any message boards but he did travel around for years being cast out of towns and eventually nailed to a cross. How quickly we forget. |
[quote]That's what they say, isn't it? I haven't seen any evidence of it. [/quote]
I guess you've got one of those tall fences that blocks out the light.
:-0
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 13:31:36. |
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03/10/2005 01:31:34 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
I guess you've got one of those tall fences that blocks out the light.
:-0 |
Where's the love?
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 13:31:52.
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