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01/20/2005 01:19:50 PM · #1 |
Hey all,
I have a problem I'd like some help with.
My cousin Charla is the one who taught me a lot about photography. She even let me use her gear for my own gigs (I paid her, tho) before I got my own equipment. The thing is she benefited from having me around, she had a ton of weddings booked but no longer wanted to shoot them so I shot most of her jobs in the past year (didn't make a lot of money compared to what she kept..she did all the editing).
Now she wants to get back into shooting after having a year off. She doesn't want to do weddings, though. I just got off the phone with her and she made a comment about me giving her my concert/paper contacts so she could start at that.
The thing is, she'd be my direct competition! I WANT to be a band photographer, she's just looking for something to kill time basically (she really wants to do fashion). First I told her "no way". Then I said "well, maybe, we'll see". I worked really hard to get all my own jobs and have made my own way. Can I really just hand that all over to her because we're family? My gut feeling is no. Maybe pass smaller work her way or something?
Any thoughts?
L |
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01/20/2005 01:25:26 PM · #2 |
nope, don't give her your list of contacts. Let her know that you hold your client's privacy in the highest regard and that you could only give her names that are willing to be references for you for future jobs, not for telemarketing or business development. (Those people will stick with you anyway, but this subtly lets her know that these people are your clientele.)
Regardless of family, you do not owe her the contacts you have made over these past few years. This is not cold, it is business.
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01/20/2005 01:27:34 PM · #3 |
I know what I would do...
explain to her how you went about getting some contacts and suggest she does the same thing. You helped her out last time, while she took a 'break', this is the way she repays you??
By all means pass on smaller concerts which involve longer distances...I think she will soon get bored and move on to something else. So, she may be family, but you ain't her keeper!
Good luck with your concerts/paper work on the future. |
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01/20/2005 01:28:00 PM · #4 |
Thats your sh*t now unless you had a prior arrangement. Give her the contacts you are not interested in. It seems like you both have different interests in the way of photography so share with her and work together. I don't see how she will be any threat to you in the form of competition unless it is in the way you percieve things to be. She was an asset in the past why should it be different?
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01/20/2005 01:28:43 PM · #5 |
At a more fundamental level, you can't "give" clients away. You don't do you OR her any favours by giving her the contacts and letting her pitch her own work; makes both of you look stupid.
If you developed these contacts on your own, tell her to suck eggs. She can damned well find her own contacts.
Robt.
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01/20/2005 01:32:18 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Regardless of family, you do not owe her the contacts you have made over these past few years. This is not cold, it is business. |
Family is the most important thing you have. It may not be evident now, but when you get older you will deeply regret things you did in the past that needlessly put matters of business before family.
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01/20/2005 01:33:31 PM · #7 |
I don't know if this is a conflict of interest so much as an internal conflict over 'territory'.
To really excel in any given field, you need contacts, you need good contacts and you need contacts that think well of you. Right now, your cousin sees you as a contact, probably a good contact and one that likely thinks well of her.
You can be the best photographer, the best painter, the best singer, the best network administrator, the best programmer, the best doctor or whatever. All of that is worth little more then a hill of beans unless you know someone.
Personally, I don't believe that helping someone out is going to severely negatively impact your potential. If anything, it may open up new doors for you down the road.
Your cousin may come across a few excellent job opportunities, but might only be able to take one of those and may suggest you take one of them. One day, you might find yourself in a position to shoot some 'fashion' shots of some band and your cousin could end up lending you needed equipment/expertise.
In the end, this is something you need to decide for yourself. The results of this decision, good or bad, will be with you for a long time.
If you do decide to help her out, it might be best to ask your contacts if it is okay if you give out their contact information. I know of more then a few people that flip out and go insane if someone tosses about their name without permission. |
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01/20/2005 01:35:28 PM · #8 |
You need to define "needless" though. There's another side to that coin; if she gives away these contacts she is going to resent having done so (based on her "story" and the feelings it exposes) and that's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
IMO her cousin is in the wrong for pressuring her to do this. If family trouble arises out of this, it's on the cousin's head...
Robt.
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01/20/2005 01:42:33 PM · #9 |
Maybe I'm just confused, but this member of your own family taught you how to use a camera in the first place, lent/rented you the equipment you needed to get started and provided you with your initial professional opportunities to shoot and now she wants something back ?! I'd tell her to get lost, she obviously has no idea what family is about.
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 13:43:52. |
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01/20/2005 01:43:59 PM · #10 |
By "giving contacts" I mean, she wants me to point her in the right direction to get started. As in, who to call at the local venues, stuff like that. And she is most definetly competition, she has NO concert exxperience but she has shot bands (friends of hers) in the past quite successfully. Maybe it's really her calling and she doesn't know it yet.
She also said "by the time I get going, you'll be too big and just throw your scraps/small jobs to me" which we both laughed at. But it might just be true!
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 13:48:30. |
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01/20/2005 01:44:46 PM · #11 |
well put, i was thinkin the same thing. how many contacts are we talking about? and how many jobs did she give you?
Originally posted by Gordon:
Maybe I'm just confused, but this member of your own family taught you how to use a camera in the first place, lent/rented you the equipment you needed to get started and provided you with your initial professional opportunities to shoot and now she wants something back ?! I'd tell her to get lost, she obviously has no idea what family is about. |
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01/20/2005 01:45:51 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Maybe I'm just confused, but this member of your own family taught you how to use a camera in the first place, lent/rented you the equipment you needed to get started and provided you with your initial professional opportunities to shoot and now she wants something back ?! I'd tell her to get lost, she obviously has no idea what family is about. |
You are confused. I was already into photography and owned a good camera before she gave me the time of day. I ended up being her assistant on weddings and then one day she decided not to shoot anymore...I bailed her out of many bad scenarios. She paid me, not a lot, and when I used her equipment: I paid her for it.
I'm not demeaning what she has done for me, she helped me find my own style but in an indirect way. We've never sat down and her physically showed me how to do anything. The technical stuff I learned on my own.
And now I'm wondering how much I should give back. That's where I'm going with this.
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 13:47:23. |
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01/20/2005 01:46:36 PM · #13 |
competition is good for the soul. she gave to you now it's your turn to give back to her.
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01/20/2005 01:47:57 PM · #14 |
Goldberry,
I honestly believe people will excel at things they truly love. if your cousin's passion is to be a fashion photographer and yours is the entertainment business, She really won't have the drive it takes to excel at it. She's not really your competition at all. Even if she was, she's family, lift her up.
I pulled this from David Sidwell's signature. I think it fits this situation you are pondering on perfectly.
"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else."
- Booker T. Washington
-Cheers |
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01/20/2005 01:48:11 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
By "giving contacts" I mean, she wants me to point her in the right direction to get started. |
if it's just stuff she could easily figure out anyway, why not just help her ... or not help her which will cause a rift between you two, and she'd just get the info anyway thru other means |
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01/20/2005 01:50:47 PM · #16 |
I had been misunderstanding this; I had thought she was asking that you "give" her your clients/contacts and back away and not compete with her.
If all she wants is some names to get a foot in the door, ask you clients if you can send your "brilliant" cousin to them to show her work. If they say yes, go for it.
Robt.
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01/20/2005 01:51:01 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
By "giving contacts" I mean, she wants me to point her in the right direction to get started. |
if it's just stuff she could easily figure out anyway, why not just help her ... or not help her which will cause a rift between you two, and she'd just get the info anyway thru other means |
Yea, you're right, that's what I was thinking. I definetly don't wnat to hold her, or anyone else, down. The thing is, only 1-3 (max) photogs are allowed to shoot at any given concert, there's no way we could BOTH be there. I just don't want to end up helping someone out who will phase ME out :-( So I guess that's my real issue.
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01/20/2005 01:52:27 PM · #18 |
I like the idea of telling her/showing her how to get those gigs and contacts and letting her make her own. I don't think it's a good idea to just give her all the clientele you've built up. You have relationships with these clients, even if it's just a name basis or "Oh yeah, there's that one girl with the camera." They know who you are and what to expect when they call you.
As far as family goes, I work with my sister. Mostly she does sales work for me, but the one time I asked her to shoot, she completely screwed it up and lost me a major client. I was a little miffed, certainly, but it taught me a lesson - not to loan my name to others. |
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01/20/2005 01:54:11 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
I had thought she was asking that you "give" her your clients/contacts and back away and not compete with her. |
One of the main issues here is that her, and most people in my family, don't realize how serious I take the work I do. It would be a real possibility that she'd take work from me - good work!
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01/20/2005 01:55:31 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
By "giving contacts" I mean, she wants me to point her in the right direction to get started. |
if it's just stuff she could easily figure out anyway, why not just help her ... or not help her which will cause a rift between you two, and she'd just get the info anyway thru other means |
Yea, you're right, that's what I was thinking. I definetly don't wnat to hold her, or anyone else, down. The thing is, only 1-3 (max) photogs are allowed to shoot at any given concert, there's no way we could BOTH be there. I just don't want to end up helping someone out who will phase ME out :-( So I guess that's my real issue. |
Most every shoot I've done like this, I take a hundred shots and they only publish or use a few of them. There are so many events going on at the same time, wouldn't it be great if you could both team up and share the photos you shoot for the day. You could be in two places at the same time and get published more often. |
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01/20/2005 01:58:21 PM · #21 |
There are a million photographers out there that all want a piece of something. Maybe thousands that live within a few miles of you. If you have your own style not a single one of them is your competition. She's family, help her anyway you can.
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01/20/2005 02:00:42 PM · #22 |
Sorry GringoI'm not entirely sure what you mean (????)
We're in no way considering teaming up or being business partners. We both have our own agendas and as we all know, working with family rarely is a good idea. (our parents actually own a company together: my dad manages and does all the grunt work and her dad doesn't get involved in the business portion-ironically). LOL
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01/20/2005 02:02:05 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Regardless of family, you do not owe her the contacts you have made over these past few years. This is not cold, it is business. |
Family is the most important thing you have. It may not be evident now, but when you get older you will deeply regret things you did in the past that needlessly put matters of business before family. |
Defintely true, however neeedless is the key word. What her cousin is asking is really not ethical, from either a personal or business perspective. If you're the client, you'd not liek to be passed off, and on a personal level, the cousin is taking advantage of the relationship.
I'd take the previously suggested path of passing her opportunities that are less desirable, and encouraging her to use those to develop her own contacts. A little competition is not a bad thing.
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01/20/2005 02:02:23 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
you have your own style not a single one of them is your competition. |
Sorry, I have to whole-heartedly disagree. Where I am, everyone and their dog knows a photographer..and I'd be willing to put money on the fact that at least a portion are my direct competition.
:-)
And back to my cousin, our working relationship was never really going in my favor. She would take months to pay me and I never got credit for my own work. I think it was a relationship of convenience for her. Her husband was sick one day so she blew off a wedding and sent me instead - I had to deal with the screaming bride. Stuff like that. I shot maybe 10 of her weddings this summer (because she was 9 months prego), she would hand off new clients to me if she felt like, sometimes she just blew them off. So it's not like she really went out of her way to give me a break.
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 14:05:56. |
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01/20/2005 02:08:20 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
There are a million photographers out there that all want a piece of something. Maybe thousands that live within a few miles of you. If you have your own style not a single one of them is your competition. She's family, help her anyway you can. |
Let me quote myself here to reiterate. I don't mean "help her any way you can" to mean let her take advantage of you, run you, or take away from you the things you need to survive as a photographer. What I'm saying is short of that help her anyway you can and disregard the competition part. It is unrealistic.
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