Rules Revisions (1/3/05 and 1/5/05)

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

01/04/2005 06:51:47 PM · #51

Originally posted by mk:

And if you're unsure about what you're doing, there are nearly 20 Site Council members, as well as a whole forum full of people who are ready and willing to answer questions.

Originally posted by geewhy:

In light of the fact that we are all going to have to be increasingly vigilant in our post processing from now on, I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on the rights and wrongs of using standalone programs such as "Virtual Photographer" in challenges (especially basic editing.) I have never used this in any challenges but I would imagine that some have.
As far as I can figure it..any changes it makes to the image will be applied to the whole image, which in my understanding would fit the rule set.However,I have seen this question asked before and to the best of my knowledge, it hasn`t been answered.
Perhaps now would be a good time to clarify this?

In light of the new ruling..it`s pretty important that we get things like this sorted I would have thought...still no takers??

David.C

01/05/2005 01:11:40 AM · #52

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by Britannica:
Just for clarification:

The rule change takes effect with 'Bokeh'; but does the last 25 submissions start there, or is it retroactive? ...

Thanks
David

I'll have to get back to you on your first question. ...

-Terry

Still debating? :D

David

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

01/05/2005 01:25:42 AM · #53

Originally posted by Britannica:

Still debating? :D

David

Yes.

-Terry

coolhar

01/05/2005 02:08:50 AM · #54

Originally posted by geewhy:

Originally posted by mk:
And if you're unsure about what you're doing, there are nearly 20 Site Council members, as well as a whole forum full of people who are ready and willing to answer questions.

Originally posted by geewhy:
In light of the fact that we are all going to have to be increasingly vigilant in our post processing from now on, I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on the rights and wrongs of using standalone programs such as "Virtual Photographer" in challenges (especially basic editing.) I have never used this in any challenges but I would imagine that some have.
As far as I can figure it..any changes it makes to the image will be applied to the whole image, which in my understanding would fit the rule set.However,I have seen this question asked before and to the best of my knowledge, it hasn`t been answered.
Perhaps now would be a good time to clarify this?

In light of the new ruling..it`s pretty important that we get things like this sorted I would have thought...still no takers??

Well Neat Image is a standalone that is allowed so that by itself will not make a program's use illegal.

01/05/2005 03:58:29 AM · #55

Gordon I see where your coming from, I too am now a little paranoid.

I think I have been here long enough and have had enough images requested for proof which have been found legal to be taken as a 'non cheating serious DPC'er' but still there is the possibility that I enter something with some kind of edit that is 'against the rules'

For example, this shot taken in November apparently broke a rule and I didn't do so knowingly.

however under the new system, an honest error such as that is going to cause much paranoia and ultimately a lot of anger geared toward the banning of users.

01/05/2005 06:02:21 AM · #56

Originally posted by jonpink:

Thanks for the input Jon..you have described my feelings exactly, I was sweating this morning because I suddenly remembered that I had done some dodging and burning to my "Mechanical" submission. It came to me that this was an Open challenge and I started cursing myself for my stupidity.Imagine my relief when I then remembered the rules were changed to "advanced" for this challenge....this paranoia`s not funny:)

Harvey..I would specifically like to read that "standalones" such as "Virtual Photographer" are or are not allowed. The basic editing ruling just mentions "standalone" cleanup utlities such as "Neat Image".
I wouldn`t place "Virtual Photographer" in that category..although, personally, I don`t see why there should be a problem.
Nobody seems too willing to commit on it though.

edited for spelling

Message edited by author 2005-01-05 17:11:20.

01/05/2005 06:05:24 AM · #57

I think there is a tendency to not comment on rules because mainly nobody really knows the rules.

I for one (again) would like to see a full detailed list of what we can use in photoshop, and what other 3rd party software we can and can not use.

This would be a valuable reference tool.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Nikon

01/05/2005 06:19:01 AM · #58

Originally posted by jonpink:

In light of the current changes Jon,I would say it`s essential.

blemt

Nikon D70

01/05/2005 07:33:28 AM · #59

I'd like to point out that a list like that will probably never happen. Why? Because there is simply no way to think through every single possible way a particular tool can be used in PS. There's no way to think through every single plugin that may hit the market.

No system of laws or rules in the world can achieve this. This is why systems of laws and rules are always changing and evolving.

The sad thing is this rule came about as a direct result of users on DPC who were abusing the system. There are individuals out there who will submit an image, see that it is scoring poorly, and decide to have it DQ'd in order to preserve their overall average. These aren't entries that most of us notice as much because they tend to be middle/back of the pack entries.

Until now, SC has really had no written in stone so to speak method of dealing with that issue. They end up spending a good deal of time dealing with users who know how to manipulate the system for their own benifit. I have no doubt that this frusterates the dickens out of the SC. Now they have a big stick with which to smack the offending user over the head.

I'd suggest we give this rule some time and see what happens before we all conclude that the sky is falling. If in a few months we are seeing dozens of DQs resulting in suspensions, then we may have a larger problem that needs addressing. Until then, let's just wait and see a bit.

Clara

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

01/05/2005 10:43:07 AM · #60

Originally posted by geewhy:

Harvey..I would specifically like to read that "standalones" such as "Virtual Photographer" are or are not allowed.

I am not familiar with Virtual Photographer. What does it do?

Originally posted by blemt:

The sad thing is this rule came about as a direct result of users on DPC who were abusing the system. There are individuals out there who will submit an image, see that it is scoring poorly, and decide to have it DQ'd in order to preserve their overall average. These aren't entries that most of us notice as much because they tend to be middle/back of the pack entries.

Until now, SC has really had no written in stone so to speak method of dealing with that issue. They end up spending a good deal of time dealing with users who know how to manipulate the system for their own benifit. I have no doubt that this frusterates the dickens out of the SC. Now they have a big stick with which to smack the offending user over the head.

I wish we could come up with some measures that would prevent the methods used by those who "manipulate" the system. The new rules deal a little more formally with the results of manipulation (penalize it more systematically) when it is discovered. But how much manipulation goes undiscovered? I trust that the SC & admins are working on prevention measures to go along with punishment and deterence.

After the new system has been in effect for a while it may evolve that a first offense will normally be looked upon as unintented and unfortunate; and the second one, which will draw a suspension, will garner no sympathy. That is kind of like the progression that has taken place around the camera date rule. Some time ago DQs for being out of the challenge period were always seen as unintentional and cause for great hand-wringing. Many people thought they should not be punished if there was a convincing arguement of good intentions. And there were always a bunch of posts saying what a great image it was. Now the collective attitude is more like "too bad you're DQed but you should have known better". Consider the 25 submission time as a period of probation. You have been put on notice and you should be extra cautious that you don't mess up again. If you do it's on you - "you should have known better".

Not sure this is the most desirable way to operate but am pretty sure it is something we have to put up with as we grow and evolve. We survived the revised application of the camera date rule, we'll probably survive this too.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/05/2005 11:09:14 AM · #61

Random spot checks would be a good detterent for those that cheat thinking that they will never hit top 5 thus never be found out.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/05/2005 11:10:55 AM · #62

Originally posted by jonpink:

Random spot checks would be a good detterent for those that cheat thinking that they will never hit top 5 thus never be found out.

We've already thought of this : )

01/05/2005 11:12:51 AM · #63

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by jonpink:
Random spot checks would be a good detterent for those that cheat thinking that they will never hit top 5 thus never be found out.

We've already thought of this : )

Good good :D

I think even the threat, coupled with the banning would reduce this by a fair margin.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

01/05/2005 11:14:53 AM · #64

The above change has also been applied to the Basic Rules, effective with the Movie Titles challenge.

The new Basic Rules are here.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/05/2005 01:57:40 PM · #65

Originally posted by coolhar:

Originally posted by geewhy:
Harvey..I would specifically like to read that "standalones" such as "Virtual Photographer" are or are not allowed.

I am not familiar with Virtual Photographer. What does it do?

Basically, it has many preset effects for adjusting contrast, desaturating and toning images and softening also.
All effects can be customised and are applied to the whole image.

Canon EOS-20D

01/05/2005 02:06:19 PM · #66

Originally posted by geewhy:

Harvey..I would specifically like to read that "standalones" such as "Virtual Photographer" are or are not allowed. The basic editing ruling just mentions "standalone" cleanup utlities such as "Neat Image".
I wouldn`t place "Virtual Photographer" in that category..although, personally, I don`t see why there should be a problem.
Nobody seems to willing to commit on it though.

I'm unfamiliar with Virtual Photographer so I'm bringing this up with the SC and will get back to you with an answer when I can.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/05/2005 04:25:09 PM · #67

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by geewhy:

Harvey..I would specifically like to read that "standalones" such as "Virtual Photographer" are or are not allowed. The basic editing ruling just mentions "standalone" cleanup utlities such as "Neat Image".
I wouldn`t place "Virtual Photographer" in that category..although, personally, I don`t see why there should be a problem.
Nobody seems to willing to commit on it though.

I'm unfamiliar with Virtual Photographer so I'm bringing this up with the SC and will get back to you with an answer when I can.

Thanks for that.

Canon EOS-20D

01/05/2005 06:16:30 PM · #68

Okay, the general consensus on Virtual Photographer is that it is okay for Advanced Challenges but not okay for Basic Challenges.

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

01/05/2005 06:18:22 PM · #69

Originally posted by mk:

Okay, the general consensus on Virtual Photographer is that it is okay for Advanced Challenges but not okay for Basic Challenges.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

01/05/2005 06:37:11 PM · #70

MK...I appreciate you getting that sorted out...thanks.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

01/05/2005 08:32:14 PM · #71

I'm OK with the spirit and intention here, but it seems to me like the evaluation period, during which, as someone described it, you're "on probation", is a bit long.

Using myself as an example...

My only DQ since I've been here was actually self-inflicted: the Point of View challenge occured in January, right after the advanced editing rules were introduced. I got confused which rules we were under and submitted an entry with spot editing. Once I realized what had happened, I requested that my entry be DQed.

That challenge was one year ago this week. I haven't been quite as active this year as last - I've entered 15 challenges since then. So under this new system, I would still have 10 more challenges before I would be "cleared" from the shadow of that one DQ. That's at least a year of facing the possibility of another inadvertant DQ getting me suspended.

Yes, under this scerio, I would most likely be granted an exemption, since I requested the DQ myself. But suppose I hadn't noticed my mistake, and someone else had, and I had been DQed through that means. You're talking about over a year "on probation".

I'm not sure I have an adequate solution, but my thought would be one of three things:

1) Lessen the number of entries for evalution. "X DQs in 10 or 15 submissions = ...." I don't know what's reasonable for this, what the average number of entries for the average memeber in a given time period is overall, or what the intent was for this particular duration. Maybe most people would get through 25 submissions in a few months. But even if you entered every available challenge, 25 submissions would cover 3 months, assuming you're a paying member - but does the average person enter every challenge? 10 or 15 would seem to me enough to deter the abuser of the system, without being overly punitive on the accidental violator.

2) Include a time frame in the evaulation - 25 submissions or 3/6/12 months. This gets into the intent as far as a duration of the "probation". Again, I don't know what the SC would consider reasonable here. To me 3 months seems like a pretty long punishment and deterant enough, but maybe not to those who have to enforce the rules.

3) Implement a graduated scale. Something like:
- 1 DQ in 15 submissions = no action
- 2 DQs in 15 submissions = 1 week suspension
- 3 DQs in 25 submissions = 2 week suspension
- 4 DQs in 40 submissions = whatever the punishment was here...
This puts the repeat offenders on a tighter leash, while allowing for a little leeway for the occasional accidental offense.

Just some ideas from someone who apparently may end up on the "probation" list for a mistake that happened a year ago...

shutterbuggy

Kodak DX4530

02/15/2005 06:05:54 AM · #72

I know this is totally off subject...but it is amazing that the announcements for the upcoming challenges show up in my e-mail the day before they end or after they have already ended. Why is that???

Thanks
Shutterbuggy

Message edited by author 2005-02-15 06:12:34.

David.C

02/15/2005 06:19:12 AM · #73

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by Britannica:
Still debating? :D

David

Yes.

-Terry

nudge, nudge ... ;) ;)

David

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi