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 12/15/2004 03:24:13 AM · #26
Another thing on the titles is that the image could be named after that challenge title to try to link the image to the challenge though it may not fit the challenge.
For instance: 'Heroic Forgivness'

has a weak link to the challenge, but I was trying to reinforce it with the title.

Even better example is: 'Conflict'

Setzler's conflict shot, "This photo has nothing to do with conflict unless you can conjure up some obscure relationship in your own mind :) I titled it 'Conflict' to try to fool people into believing that there is some amount of conflict in this photograph. Doesn't show conflict, but did produce one =).

People suspect this, and think that just because you shot is titled with the challenge title in it, that it may be trying to stretch to meet the challenge. Even if it is subconsious, it may still effect the voting.

I also agree with lack of originality as well (which would be more of an effect then this), just offering a different idea.

12/15/2004 04:58:12 AM · #27
Originally posted by KDO:
Just curious so don't jump down my throat (please). I don't know the history and would like some background. Why do some people get so upset about the challenge word being in the title? I understand that it lacks creativity, but the extreme reaction puzzles me. Any takers?


A previous discussion on this observation
 12/15/2004 05:50:22 AM · #28
Votes: 44
Views: 51
Avg Vote: 3.5000
Comments: 2

:Þ

Comment says it's out of focus... it's not
Other says they're motion blur.. there's not
 12/15/2004 06:00:39 AM · #29
lol I got an OOF comment as well.... I have viewed at 100% and it ain't OOF.

:)
 12/15/2004 11:23:47 AM · #30
In regards to the bad titles, maybe we could use another update to the preferences whereby a user can choose whether or not to view the image titles when voting...after all, an image should speak to it's title, not the other way around.
 12/15/2004 12:39:45 PM · #31
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I'll add my two cents about titles...

I don't normally complain much about titles other than to myself. I do make comments about titles when I see a GREAT photo with a really poor title. Titles are as subjective as the photos they are attached to though. The title IS part of the entire presentation when I look at a photo. A poor title can hurt my own view of a photo. However, if the photo looks like the photographer didn't really care to start with, the title doesn't matter.


I don't even look at the titles when I am reviewing challenge submissions. I've never thought about it much, but I guess I'm a believer in the image standing on it's own. I do kind of like the more traditional titles that give just a little context on time and place, like "Sara in Paris, 1973". If a title is required to understand the image it's probably not going to score very high with me.
 12/15/2004 12:46:07 PM · #32
Originally posted by SDW65:
This is why I don’t like threads like this while voting is going on. Someone reads it and thinks they should vote a particular picture or set of picture's down because after reading, they think everyone else is. YES I have a flag photograph and it is [ or was] doing pretty good. I knew there would be no ribbon for this photo [or even near a ribbon]. But my point is I just updated and received a 1 vote. But as always NO comment on why they choose to give it a one. And to the person that gave it a 1, how about a comment? See some of us don’t have the luxury of sharing our photographs with others here at this site before submitting so we don’t’ know how many of one particular thing will be submitted. Now that one vote could be a ‘troll voter’ or could it have been obscured because of a thread such as this? Think about it.
I can’t tell you how may times I have seen that Rock off the Oregon cost and I have never been there but I can close my eyes and see it as if it was in my back yard, but I never vote it down because of frequency. Just had to ventâ€Â¦. Sorry.

NOTE: my reference to the Oregon rock is just that a reference. I think Zoomdak has taken a few pictures of it and they are all good to great shots and one has won a ribbon [Congrat's]. I was just pointing out that a good picture that has been seen a lot does not have to be voted all the wayyyyyyyy down.


That's a fair argument, IMHO there are too many threads about challenges in the voting stage, why not wait until the voting is done?

And another thing, you are right about the 1's, I think as the rules recommend, people should always leave a comment on shots that get a 1, not stating that the voter is giving a 1 but maybe just a short line about what went wrong, should give the learning curve a boost.

Tyrkinn
 12/15/2004 01:07:05 PM · #33
Originally posted by SDW65:
Someone reads it and thinks they should vote a particular picture or set of picture's down because after reading, they think everyone else is.


and what source did you derive that tidbit from? You're picture scoring less than what you wanted doesn't mean you can post generalizations like that and think they'll be taken as fact!

And to rephrase the original post "if i see one more boring flag shot..." It's not so much about the subject, but the lack of ingenuity in shooting it.
 12/15/2004 01:22:41 PM · #34
I agree with SDW65. I think it does influence some people. I feel like I am walking on eggshells in some of the forums because the majority is quick to respond. That does have an impact.

I don't think he is saying that it does influence everyone. But he makes a valid point. He also has something stake. A genius can take the ordinary and make it extraordinary, a master the mundane and make it magnificent. Any subject, done well, could win it. Look at the lemons in the second place photo for yellow. It would be fair to respect his wishes.
 12/15/2004 02:10:31 PM · #35
this is now about titles?

not how the thread started, anyhow this is how i feel about it:-

A title is important, if one cant be bothered about a title then I couldn̢۪t
be bothered to try figure it out.
I think a title should give the voter a clue to how the fotog̢۪s mind
was working.
Don̢۪t think the voter should have an opinion about the title at all.
its very subjective and personal after all.
Take a pic of an item, boot for instance,
‘his boot’ is very different from ‘the boot’ or
‘boot’ for that matter.
:)
 12/15/2004 02:28:45 PM · #36
Originally posted by xtabintun:
Votes: 44
Views: 51
Avg Vote: 3.5000
Comments: 2

:Þ

Comment says it's out of focus... it's not
Other says they're motion blur.. there's not


So what is the 'problem'? The low score and the two similar comments suggest an issue that is being seen by the voters. Did you not sharpen the pic (via USM or other means)? Is it intentionally a soft focus shot? Is it selective focus on the 'wrong' item or too shallow a DOF? If it is a person or other object close to a wall or backdrop your camera may have focuused on the wall not the subject. My and other Fujis seem to have this tendency if the backdrop is not 2 feet or more from the subject. Was it camera shake from too slow a shutter speed?

Message edited by author 2004-12-15 14:30:04.
 12/15/2004 02:49:17 PM · #37
Whoa people! What did I start here? Hey, it was only a light comment on the fact that there were multiple flag, candle, hair and grass pictures in this challenge. More repetitive than any I rememmber in my limited time here. I mentioned the falgs becasue it struck me that one of the group projects I worked on is flags. If you read back all these topics were mentioned and I doubt individual photos were hurt. Hey, I have about five grass, a candle, some hair and even a flag in my top group at the moment.

Take a deep breath and relax ..... ahh, better.

If it makes you feel better my shot is of none of these topics and is doing very, well, average. : ( And it was taken with my brand new D70! Damn, I guess I still need training.

J.B.
 12/15/2004 02:53:33 PM · #38
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by xtabintun:
Votes: 44
Views: 51
Avg Vote: 3.5000
Comments: 2

:Þ

Comment says it's out of focus... it's not
Other says they're motion blur.. there's not


So what is the 'problem'? The low score and the two similar comments suggest an issue that is being seen by the voters. Did you not sharpen the pic (via USM or other means)? Is it intentionally a soft focus shot? Is it selective focus on the 'wrong' item or too shallow a DOF? If it is a person or other object close to a wall or backdrop your camera may have focuused on the wall not the subject. My and other Fujis seem to have this tendency if the backdrop is not 2 feet or more from the subject. Was it camera shake from too slow a shutter speed?


I used my Nikon, a tripod, and an original (to this challenge, as far as I can tell) concept. I liked it, the voters didn't. Oh well.
 12/15/2004 05:05:46 PM · #39
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I'll add my two cents about titles...

I don't normally complain much about titles other than to myself. I do make comments about titles when I see a GREAT photo with a really poor title. Titles are as subjective as the photos they are attached to though. The title IS part of the entire presentation when I look at a photo. A poor title can hurt my own view of a photo. However, if the photo looks like the photographer didn't really care to start with, the title doesn't matter.


I can't agree more. On the flip side, I get irritated when I see "Untitled", or IMGxxxx.JPG (or variation) in the title. I think the title can lend insight to the viewer to your perspective or angle for the shot.

If you title your shot poorly, it can hurt ya.

If you do not title your shot at all, it always hurts ya.

My 2 cents.
 12/15/2004 05:09:19 PM · #40
Originally posted by SDW65:
This is why I don’t like threads like this while voting is going on. Someone reads it and thinks they should vote a particular picture or set of picture's down because after reading, they think everyone else is. YES I have a flag photograph and it is [ or was] doing pretty good. I knew there would be no ribbon for this photo [or even near a ribbon]. But my point is I just updated and received a 1 vote. But as always NO comment on why they choose to give it a one. And to the person that gave it a 1, how about a comment? See some of us don’t have the luxury of sharing our photographs with others here at this site before submitting so we don’t’ know how many of one particular thing will be submitted. Now that one vote could be a ‘troll voter’ or could it have been obscured because of a thread such as this? Think about it.
I can’t tell you how may times I have seen that Rock off the Oregon cost and I have never been there but I can close my eyes and see it as if it was in my back yard, but I never vote it down because of frequency. Just had to ventâ€Â¦. Sorry.

NOTE: my reference to the Oregon rock is just that a reference. I think Zoomdak has taken a few pictures of it and they are all good to great shots and one has won a ribbon [Congrat's]. I was just pointing out that a good picture that has been seen a lot does not have to be voted all the wayyyyyyyy down.


Perhaps that 1 vote was a true 1 vote, and the voter was being rather irresponsible in not leaving a comment. I can say that I gave all the flags a 1 vote for the sole purpose of being a 'placeholder'. I want to review all the flags as a subset and judge them on their relative merits. If you feel that you were unjustly scored, try giving it some time. I think there are quite a few voters who use 1 as a placeholder.

FYI, today I went back and reviewed all the flags and scored appropriately. :P
 12/15/2004 05:15:49 PM · #41
Originally posted by w24x192:
In regards to the bad titles, maybe we could use another update to the preferences whereby a user can choose whether or not to view the image titles when voting...after all, an image should speak to it's title, not the other way around.


I completely disagree. The title is an integral part of the overall presentation. People are too testy when it comes to titles, or at least the vocal ones seem to be. If you feel a title is just a 'shoehorn' attempt to lend credence to a tenuous link to the theme, then vote accordingly.
 12/15/2004 05:43:39 PM · #42
I think the title is important, but please keep it simple :D
 12/15/2004 05:54:16 PM · #43
Oooooh wind (short i) like pfft, pfft, not wind (long i) like crank, crank, crank, crank ...

Forget it, I'm nuts.

Glad I didn't enter my flags photo! : )
But I did consider a wind (up) toy!
 12/15/2004 06:14:26 PM · #44
I think if you require voters to comment on low scoring they will just move to the next highest score that doesn't require it. I don't see why anyone would have to justify a low vote, bottom line is they just didn't like it.

I am just a pup in this community but it seems like a lot of people rely solely on their photos scores. If someone likes your photo they will mark it as a favorite, or buy it if available.
12/15/2004 06:16:25 PM · #45
Wow. I'm beginning to enjoy reading these threads just because of all the viewpoints that are thrown to the wind. (sorry, couldn't resist).

Comments: Out of Focus/Motion Blur or Lack of Sharp
My low tech entry took the worst of beatings for something that I initially loved. The grain. Multiple comments about noise, lower the ISO, too much grain. Here I thought I had an artistic flair to a shot and so many people couldn't see it. 3 days into the voting I realized what was wrong. MY perspective. The grain could be used, but I over used it and it was causing the entire audience to miss the subject and see only the most distracting feature.

Common place subjects: Kids, Cats, Dogs, Flags, Your Eye, (add your own here)
Posted a shot of my dog. Thought the contrast was great, had good texture and detail in the hair and a unique expression. Loads of commentary on cute pic, kinda blah subject. Horrible horrible scores. Took me all of one day to realize that DPC is not my coffee table photo album, as much as I like my dog, it is not a subject (unless specifically challenged) that many people are going to find inspiring or even interesting enough to take a second look at. If I even shoot for the pets challenge you can bet if I don't come up with something that wouldn't just go in the photo album or trash if it was printed, it won't be posted.

Titles: *** / Untitled / This darn well is wind! / Conflict.
Rule number one about successful photography is that the audience should have no question about what the subject is. If the pic is too busy, you have lost the race. If the subject is abstract, then a title should gently nudge in the direction. When judging, we all KNOW what the challenge is. If a *** doesn't outright say I have confidence in my subject matter speaking for itself, I better not have any question. Then again, as evidenced by the thread in JM's 'Conflict', the title could evoke the emotion or it may be a satirical expression of disgust with how people vote when directed to 'keep the challenge as the highest concern when voting'. Where a title hurts the most is when it directs the viewer away from the intended subject.

Conclusion:
(If nothing else I like to write and hear myself talk).

DPC is here to challenge us all to become better photographers. If we are here just to have a place to post our family photo album, we have arrived at a place that will be unforgiving. If we have come looking to hone a skill and learn about composition, what sells, what fails, what techniques in photoshop to use to make some subject more interesting or worth hanging on a wall (the museum wall, not the family portrait wall), then we may yet find some of that here and we may find some of that at the New York Institute of Photography or we may search for more mentors to guide us.

The real question in the end will remain with the 'Artist': Do you really wish to break out of the habit of 'Taking Pictures' for the sake of taking pictures or will you rise to the challenge of 'Making Photographs' that will stand the test of time beyond the challenge, beyond the photo album, beyond the interest of the lifespan of the one who chose to take the picture?

...and now back to your regularly scheduled rant about voters. ;-)

edit: still can't spell.

Message edited by author 2004-12-15 19:18:40.
 12/15/2004 08:07:09 PM · #46
Arcanist - wow, you do like to talk (write). LOL.
But darn if it does not make sense.
 12/15/2004 08:59:37 PM · #47
Originally posted by xion:
I think the title is important, but please keep it simple :D


My personal contribution in the quest for the worst title ever - a title brown ribbon, if you will: "Get the Gray Out - and his Energy Crisis Too! Blue Skies from The Right on their way to California!" That title was so bad, in so many ways. The picture wasn't all that great either.



But I liked it at the time, for what it was, and for that particular challenge.
 12/16/2004 12:01:35 AM · #48
ScottK, thank you for your humble humor. It is rare and generous. It speaks volumes about your confidence and comfort in who are. There a treasured few of you out there, scalvert comes to mind along with you, who can lighten the tension and steer us all back to sanity.
 12/16/2004 12:39:08 AM · #49
My personal contribution in the quest for the worst title ever - a title brown ribbon, if you will: "Get the Gray Out - and his Energy Crisis Too! Blue Skies from The Right on their way to California!" That title was so bad, in so many ways. The picture wasn't all that great either.


now you see i think the title was the best part, bit like salvador
dali's weird titles. :)
 12/16/2004 02:46:46 AM · #50
Windmaker

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