Do I not understand the rules...

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

12/09/2004 10:01:22 PM · #1

Just starting to go through the yellow photos and have seen two images already that are layered and desaturated. Is this not in violation of the Basic Editing rules or do I simply not understand them?

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

12/09/2004 10:04:24 PM · #2

You can't tell that an image is layered by looking at it and selective desaturation is quite common around here, and it is legal in the basic editing rules.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/09/2004 10:05:57 PM · #3

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

You can't tell that an image is layered...

Correct...poor choice of words.

Gauti

Canon EOS-7D

12/09/2004 10:06:11 PM · #4

Originally posted by rmtm333:

If in doubt contact the SC or make and DQ
Then the issue will be settled
I acutally think there have been no DQ yet in yellow, which is quite unusual, IMHO

KaDi

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

12/09/2004 10:10:27 PM · #5

Agreeing with John. It's not the rules, its the tools you are not familiar with.

Please do vote as if they're "legal" entries....as they most probably are. And also, do request a disqualification if you just can't see how that is possible---It's only fair to the photographer who entered to be able to prove the legality of the entry. (I've been voted down in the past for entries that are perfectly fine, but no one requested a DQ!)

In fact, my current entry is definitely a very legal selective desaturation. On behalf of all those like me, I beg you not to jump to conclusions! But if you must, at least give me the opportunity to have my entry validated before your low score affects it.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

12/09/2004 10:11:23 PM · #6

my intent is not to DQ anybody but to simply understand the rule. My interpretation is that any changes must affect the entire image. Selective desaturation in my opinion does not impact the entire image.

Message edited by author 2004-12-09 22:13:21.

KaDi

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

12/09/2004 10:13:10 PM · #7

Originally posted by rmtm333:

my intent is not to DQ anybody but to simply understand the rule. My interpretation is that any changes must effect the entire image. Selective desaturation in my opinion does not impact the entire image.

Then you need to do a little reading:
How to desaturate under basic editing

Edit to add: You will not be DQ'ing anyone. You will be requesting that an image is considered for DQ. Assuming the person who entered the photo is not "wrong" you will have done nothing more than request that the image be validated as appropriate.

Message edited by author 2004-12-09 22:15:23.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/09/2004 10:14:28 PM · #8

Originally posted by KaDi:

Then you need to do a little reading:
How to desaturate under basic editing

Thanks KaDi

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

12/09/2004 10:15:30 PM · #9

Please read this thread and also this thread and then vote the photos based on their quality.

whagerbaumer

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

12/09/2004 10:17:42 PM · #10

The rule as I understand it is that the same logical processing must be applied to each and every pixel. If a pixel is all yellow, it will not be desaturated if green, blue, magenta, green, red, and cyan are desaturated. Other pixels will be completely or partially desaturated. As long as no selective masks are made or used this is entirely within the rules and I have seen at least one entry where this was done, a challenge made, and the entry was validated.

12/09/2004 10:19:32 PM · #11

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Please read this thread and also this thread and then vote the photos based on their quality.

Thanks General...and just to reassure all who have used this technique, I have not requested any DQs (nor will I ever) and I have scored them based on their quality. I'm simply a newbie who needed clarification.

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

12/09/2004 10:20:22 PM · #12

Originally posted by whagerbaumer:

Thanks

Beagleboy

Canon EOS-30D

12/09/2004 10:20:52 PM · #13

Originally posted by rmtm333:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
Please read this thread and also this thread and then vote the photos based on their quality.

Thanks General...and just to reassure all who have used this technique, I have not requested any DQs (nor will I ever) and I have scored them based on their quality. I'm simply a newbie who needed clarification.

You da man!

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/09/2004 10:29:38 PM · #14

While we're on the subject, I'm a bit unclear as to how this is legal. Maybe I don't fully understand the nature of the history brush, but it seems like it was applied to a selected region of the image.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/09/2004 10:39:31 PM · #15

That was an Advanced Editing challenge, so selective editing was allowed.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

12/09/2004 10:43:48 PM · #16

Originally posted by scalvert:

That was an Advanced Editing challenge, so selective
editing was allowed.

True, but:

Originally posted by Advanced Editing Rules:

Cloning, dodging, and/or burning to remove imperfections and minor distracting elements is permitted, however using tools to duplicate, create, or move major elements of your photograph is not. You are encouraged to list all of the post-shot editing tools that you used in the "Photographer's Comments " section of your submission.

would suggest to me that selective editing is limited to minor cosmetic fixes only.

David.C

12/09/2004 10:53:54 PM · #17

Originally posted by strags:

Originally posted by scalvert:
That was an Advanced Editing challenge, so selective
editing was allowed.

True, but:
Originally posted by Advanced Editing Rules:

Cloning, dodging, and/or burning to remove imperfections and minor distracting elements is permitted, however using tools to duplicate, create, or move major elements of your photograph is not. You are encouraged to list all of the post-shot editing tools that you used in the "Photographer's Comments " section of your submission.

would suggest to me that selective editing is limited to minor cosmetic fixes only.

As I understand it:

That particular passage of the rules is explicitly stating what tools are usable and in what manner -- the tool used to desaturate (the sponge, if looking only at tools) is never addressed. That particular section is not applicable to anything but the tools mentioned. Also, the passage is mainly to clarify when it is legal to alter the arrangement of pixels next to each other -- but has no bearing on when it is legal to change the color/tone/hue/saturation/etc of the pixel.

David

Message edited by author 2004-12-09 22:57:01.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

12/09/2004 11:17:31 PM · #18

Originally posted by Britannica:

That particular passage of the rules is explicitly stating what tools are usable and in what manner -- the tool used to desaturate (the sponge, if looking only at tools) is never addressed. That particular section is not applicable to anything but the tools mentioned. Also, the passage is mainly to clarify when it is legal to alter the arrangement of pixels next to each other -- but has no bearing on when it is legal to change the color/tone/hue/saturation/etc of the pixel.

I take it then that your interpretation is that the rules offer no advice whatsoever as to whether the aforementioned image is legal or not? Fair enough... but I think that's a pretty loose interpretation (ie. "Anything goes, as long as you don't move sections of your image around".)

I tend to interpret the passage in question as "You're allowed to make minor fixes, but that's it", which is arguably the most strict intepretation. I suspect the intent is somewhere in between, but the mere fact we're having this discussion suggests that the rules could use clarifying.

David.C

12/09/2004 11:35:09 PM · #19

Originally posted by strags:

... but I think that's a pretty loose interpretation (ie. "Anything goes, as long as you don't move sections of your image around".) ...

Well, I don't think it has gotten quite that loose yet, but as long as the rules are tool based (as opposed to affect based) I don't see it changing any time soon.

Originally posted by strags:

... but the mere fact we're having this discussion suggests that the rules could use clarifying.

The rules have been clarified many times, and from what was said in a thread announcing a new revision of the basic rules last week or so, the advanced rules are going to be clarified once again.

This discussion leads straight into the heart of the (sometimes heated) discussion on the direction the rules (and thus the site) should go, but the very lengthy threads can fill you in on the debate far better than a summary by me can. Just search on 'rules change' and you will hit most of it.

David

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/10/2004 12:00:09 AM · #20

Under Basic you can't move pixels around at all (no cloning), but you can change the color freely using any adjustment tool as long as you apply it to the whole image at once (no selections or masks).

Under Advanced, you can move a few pixels around ("minor fixes"), and can also change the color freely and selectively using selections/masks, or any other tools/filters you want.

"Some Things ..." is a single photograph with different areas having separate color effects applied. Legal, clever, effective, etc....

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/10/2004 12:15:27 AM · #21

Shifting the existing colors is always allowed- overall in Basic Editing and selectively in Advanced Editing. This is a good example:

While you could argue that the change is not minor, the rationale was that this is like selective desaturation in reverse. There are numerous examples of colorization techniques throughout this site, and an entire challenge devoted to Selective Desaturation.