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08/30/2004 07:22:24 PM · #1126 |
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08/31/2004 08:49:16 PM · #1127 |
Gordon [PHd, Paul, Mad] you are wonderfully educated, intelligent people. Tragically, you seem to lack real world experience in the ugly, harsh, murderous area of "where it's at".
You pontificate from your academic position. You have this freedom to do so because too many of various generations of Americans have bled and died to preserve your right to do so.
DO NOT ABUSE THIS PRIVELEGE!!! Until you earn it, be temperate, and reasoned.
You dilute your argument if you speak from a weak position. |
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08/31/2004 08:50:51 PM · #1128 |
Originally posted by JEM:
You dilute your argument if you speak from a weak position. |
I wish that worked on the other side of the coin. |
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08/31/2004 09:41:22 PM · #1129 |
What do you mean, Mad?
And from what base of experience do you speak? |
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08/31/2004 09:58:40 PM · #1130 |
Originally posted by JEM:
Gordon [PHd, Paul, Mad] you are wonderfully educated, intelligent people. Tragically, you seem to lack real world experience in the ugly, harsh, murderous area of "where it's at".
You dilute your argument if you speak from a weak position. |
***What exactly do you mean by this? What real world experience are you refering to and how can you be so sure that these people lack life experience? |
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09/01/2004 10:35:16 AM · #1131 |
"Where its at" Oly is armed conflict. It is beyond my power to educate you about how it feels...you have to be there to understand. I will not spend more of my diminishing life in an attempt to explain that.
Keep up your work as a paramedic. Continue to get your jollies by useless complaining about our current administration. These forums of the past two years have clearly identified the participants positions on almost everything. Everyone is now preaching to their own choir and the sound and fury are going nowhere. Adios. |
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09/01/2004 10:35:35 AM · #1132 |
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09/01/2004 10:37:19 AM · #1133 |
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09/01/2004 11:00:04 AM · #1134 |
Originally posted by JEM:
"Where its at" Oly is armed conflict. It is beyond my power to educate you about how it feels...you have to be there to understand. I will not spend more of my diminishing life in an attempt to explain that.
Keep up your work as a paramedic. Continue to get your jollies by useless complaining about our current administration. These forums of the past two years have clearly identified the participants positions on almost everything. Everyone is now preaching to their own choir and the sound and fury are going nowhere. Adios. |
***But there are many vets who have fought in war that are the most vociferous opponents and critics of the US government. I'm sorry you see that criticism of the government is useless complaining. I assume then that you usually take a passive attitude towards those that spend your money in your name and that make the decisions that effect your life and that of your community. |
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09/01/2004 02:06:02 PM · #1135 |
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09/01/2004 02:35:02 PM · #1136 |
Listening to what( or should I say Who )? The police or the protesters? |
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09/01/2004 02:41:26 PM · #1137 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Listening to what( or should I say Who )? The police or the protesters? |
I̢۪m thinking what is the point of protesting? Nobody seems to listen and they are getting arrested left and right. Millions have protested in NY since Sunday, the start of the RNC yet I don̢۪t see it making any impact on anything except making the police department money by arresting and charging and fining.
But, how else do the little people get heard?
:/ |
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09/01/2004 03:34:53 PM · #1138 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Listening to what( or should I say Who )? The police or the protesters? |
I̢۪m thinking what is the point of protesting? Nobody seems to listen and they are getting arrested left and right. Millions have protested in NY since Sunday, the start of the RNC yet I don̢۪t see it making any impact on anything except making the police department money by arresting and charging and fining.
But, how else do the little people get heard?
:/ |
Some of the things that they can do - individually or in concert:
1) They can develop a cogent argument and articulate it in a) letters to the Editor of local and national newspapers.
2) If the laws permit, they can peaceably assemble ( being sure to invite the media to their gathering ); if permits are needed, they can obtain them
3) they can write to their congressional or senatorial delagates, expressing their views
4) they can develop petitions and gather signatures to be presented to legislators
5) they can campaign for office, or volunteer to work on the campaigns of those who represent their interests
6) they can donate time, effort, or money to the campaign funds for those they feel represent their interests
7) they can purchase advertising space in newspapers, or radio spots.
There are a lot more things they can do that would cast them, and their cause, in a better light than protesting. |
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09/01/2004 03:35:57 PM · #1139 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Listening to what( or should I say Who )? The police or the protesters? |
I̢۪m thinking what is the point of protesting? Nobody seems to listen and they are getting arrested left and right. Millions have protested in NY since Sunday, the start of the RNC yet I don̢۪t see it making any impact on anything except making the police department money by arresting and charging and fining.
But, how else do the little people get heard?
:/ |
Actually it's probably costing the city a fortune to babysit and arrest all the protestors. Good thing all those cops are getting paid for all the OT.
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09/01/2004 04:08:38 PM · #1140 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Some of the things that they can do - individually or in concert:
1) They can develop a cogent argument and articulate it in a) letters to the Editor of local and national newspapers.
2) If the laws permit, they can peaceably assemble ( being sure to invite the media to their gathering ); if permits are needed, they can obtain them
3) they can write to their congressional or senatorial delagates, expressing their views
4) they can develop petitions and gather signatures to be presented to legislators
5) they can campaign for office, or volunteer to work on the campaigns of those who represent their interests
6) they can donate time, effort, or money to the campaign funds for those they feel represent their interests
7) they can purchase advertising space in newspapers, or radio spots.
There are a lot more things they can do that would cast them, and their cause, in a better light than protesting. |
Most of those things are being done all the time. Moveon.org put together lots of petitions and letters to many senators and others and have had hundreds of thousands of signatures. They have millions of members too who donates millions hence the commercials and advertisements. And there are lots of other groups as big or bigger, doing the same things.
One thing that could be done is media actually covering and interviewing protesters. Asking them questions and getting solid opinions beyond what there picketing signs say. As usual, the media isn̢۪t doing its due diligence.
But those other things do not seem work in any large enough scale to make a difference. I guess only Nov 2nd will tell. |
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09/03/2004 04:45:22 PM · #1141 |
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09/05/2004 05:38:18 PM · #1142 |
Freedom of information investigation?
Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked
Posted on Sun, Sep. 05, 2004
Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked
By FRANK DAVIES
fdavies@herald.com
WASHINGTON - Two of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers had a support network in the United States that included agents of the Saudi government, and the Bush administration and FBI blocked a congressional investigation into that relationship, Sen. Bob Graham wrote in a book to be released Tuesday.
The discovery of the financial backing of the two hijackers ''would draw a direct line between the terrorists and the government of Saudi Arabia, and trigger an attempted coverup by the Bush administration,'' the Florida Democrat wrote.
And in Graham's book, Intelligence Matters, obtained by The Herald Saturday, he makes clear that some details of that financial support from Saudi Arabia were in the 27 pages of the congressional inquiry's final report that were blocked from release by the administration, despite the pleas of leaders of both parties on the House and Senate intelligence committees.
Graham also revealed that Gen. Tommy Franks told him on Feb. 19, 2002, just four months after the invasion of Afghanistan, that many important resources -- including the Predator drone aircraft crucial to the search for Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda leaders -- were being shifted to prepare for a war against Iraq.
Graham recalled this conversation at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa with Franks, then head of Central Command, who was ``looking troubled'':
``Senator, we are not engaged in a war in Afghanistan.''
''Excuse me?'' I asked.
''Military and intelligence personnel are being redeployed to prepare for an action in Iraq,'' he continued.
Graham concluded: 'Gen. Franks' mission -- which, as a good soldier, he was loyally carrying out -- was being downgraded from a war to a manhunt.''
Graham, who was chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee from June 2001 through the buildup to the Iraq war, voted against the war resolution in October 2002 because he saw Iraq as a diversion that would hinder the fight against al Qaeda terrorism.
He oversaw the Sept. 11 investigation on Capitol Hill with Rep. Porter Goss, nominated last month to be the next CIA director. According to Graham, the FBI and the White House blocked efforts to investigate the extent of official Saudi connections to two hijackers.
Graham wrote that the staff of the congressional inquiry concluded that two Saudis in the San Diego area, Omar al-Bayoumi and Osama Bassan, who gave significant financial support to two hijackers, were working for the Saudi government.
Al-Bayoumi received a monthly allowance from a contractor for Saudi Civil Aviation that jumped from $465 to $3,700 in March 2000, after he helped Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhdar -- two of the Sept. 11 hijackers -- find apartments and make contacts in San Diego, just before they began pilot training.
When the staff tried to conduct interviews in that investigation, and with an FBI informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, who also helped the eventual hijackers, they were blocked by the FBI and the administration, Graham wrote.
The administration and CIA also insisted that the details about the Saudi support network that benefited two hijackers be left out of the final congressional report, Graham complained.
Bush had concluded that ''a nation-state that had aided the terrorists should not be held publicly to account,'' Graham wrote. ``It was as if the president's loyalty lay more with Saudi Arabia than with America's safety.''
Saudi officials have vociferously denied any ties to the hijackers or al Qaeda plots to attack the United States.
Graham ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic presidential nomination and then decided not to seek reelection to the Senate this year. He has said he hopes his book will illuminate FBI and CIA failures in the war on terrorism and he also offers recommendations on ways to reform the intelligence community.
On Iraq, Graham said the administration and CIA consistently overplayed its estimates of Saddam Hussein's threat in its public statements and declassified reports, while its secret reports contained warnings that the intelligence on weapons of mass destruction was not conclusive.
In October 2002, Tenet told Graham that ''there were 550 sites where weapons of mass destruction were either produced or stored'' in Iraq.
''It was, in short, a vivid and terrifying case for war. The problem was it did not accurately represent the classified estimate we had received just days earlier,'' Graham wrote. ``It was two different messages, directed at two different audiences. I was outraged.''
In his book, Graham is especially critical of the FBI for its inability to track al Qaeda operatives in the United States and blasts the CIA for ``politicizing intelligence.''
He reserves his harshest criticism for Bush.
Graham found the president had ''an unforgivable level of intellectual -- and even common sense -- indifference'' toward analyzing the comparative threats posed by Iraq and al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
When the weapons were not found, one year after the invasion of Iraq, Bush attended a black-tie dinner in Washington, Graham recalled. Bush gave a humorous speech with slides, showing him looking under White House furniture and joking, ``Nope, no WMDs there.''
Graham wrote: ``It was one of the most offensive things I have witnessed. Having recently attended the funeral of an American soldier killed in Iraq, who left behind a young wife and two preschool-age children, I found nothing funny about a deceitful justification for war.''
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09/05/2004 07:32:16 PM · #1143 |
Hmmm... didn't Mr. Bush make some remark about the 911 Commission, about it "... following every trail, wherever it may lead." or at least the functional equivalent? Perhaps not, we know the man never lies ... really takes that George W. moniker to heart ...
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09/05/2004 08:00:46 PM · #1144 |
Pack this election in. Sorry. There is no way Kerry can make up that much ground.
I really think the Democrats could have won this election with another candidate. Kerry comes off like a rich, arrogant, self serving brat.
If they would have chose a canditate with like Clinton with charisma, great speaking abilities and most of all the ability to relate to the average person, the Democrats would have won in a landside.
I never agreed with Clinton, but I enjoyed listening to him and could appriciate what he said. Not so with Kerry. |
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09/09/2004 12:16:24 PM · #1145 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Hmmm... didn't Mr. Bush make some remark about the 911 Commission, about it "... following every trail, wherever it may lead." or at least the functional equivalent? Perhaps not, we know the man never lies ... really takes that George W. moniker to heart ...
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That picture is so right on.
Osama Bin Ladin was not mentioned once during the RNC by ANY speakers. NOT ONCE. Yet they almost exclusively about 9/11, terrorists and Iraq.
Would that be because he got away? They want to forget about lil ol' Osama the killer of 3000 working Americans? The whole reasons were currently fucking up the world more?
Message edited by author 2004-09-09 12:26:50. |
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09/09/2004 12:57:07 PM · #1146 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Osama Bin Ladin was not mentioned once during the RNC by ANY speakers. NOT ONCE. Yet they almost exclusively about 9/11, terrorists and Iraq.
Would that be because he got away? They want to forget about lil ol' Osama the killer of 3000 working Americans? The whole reasons were currently fucking up the world more? |
Two points:
1) Osama is not the one packing explosives into trucks.
2) The administration hasn't "forgotten" him. In fact, Joseph Cofer Black, the U.S. State Department coordinator for counterterrorism said just this past Sunday, "If he has a watch, he should be looking at it because the clock is ticking. He will be caught".
3) Does your momma know the kind of language you use in your posts? Would she approve, if she did?
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09/09/2004 01:07:55 PM · #1147 |
Whatever Ron. Osama caused was behind 9/11, Bush has said "dead or alive", the entire RNC was about 9/11, terrorists and Iraq.
Why wasnt Osama mentioned? |
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09/09/2004 01:15:35 PM · #1148 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Whatever Ron. Osama caused was behind 9/11, Bush has said "dead or alive", the entire RNC was about 9/11, terrorists and Iraq.
Why wasnt Osama mentioned? |
Why wasn't he mentioned in Kerry's speech?
He wasn't mentioned because HE is not the focus of the war on terror. Like I said, HE is not the one packing explosives into trucks. |
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09/09/2004 01:26:04 PM · #1149 |
I didn̢۪t ask about Kerry. 9/11 isn̢۪t the key focus and excuse for everything in Kerry's campaign.
Why didn̢۪t ANY of the RNC speakers mention Osama? Not even ONCE. |
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09/09/2004 01:52:03 PM · #1150 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
I didn̢۪t ask about Kerry. 9/11 isn̢۪t the key focus and excuse for everything in Kerry's campaign.
Why didn̢۪t ANY of the RNC speakers mention Osama? Not even ONCE. |
No, but I did. You say that 9/11 isn't the key focus and excuse for everything in Kerry's campaign. So, please tell me - what IS the key focus and excuse for everything in Kerry's campaign?
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