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04/04/2003 12:14:23 AM · #601 |
Originally posted by Gracious:
Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean that people in Australia, and other countries don't debate the systems in place? If you think that is the case, that's simply not true. People debate politics wherever they are free to do so. Maybe that's not what you mean. Is it??? You said "Often Americans debate these issues as though they're the only people to ever be faced with them. Why don't you look at what works overseas and adopt the best systems? I don't understand." Do we Americans debate differently than the people you've heard, that makes you say that? An American style of debate??? |
No, jimmy described what I meant pretty well :). I see time and time again arguments over American government policies online, with people giving all kinds of weird reasons why free health care wouldn't work, or free education is a bad idea, or that improving the welfare system is wrong because handouts don't teach you to look after yourself, etc. It's strange to read these arguments, sitting here in a country that has the very policies that are being derided as unworkable or impossible. In terms of social policies, American governments seem to enjoy reinventing the wheel.
We definitely DO debate all the policies I described. The jobsearch system can be very difficult and has caused a lot of people to lose their benefits and become homeless because they messed up some paperwork. The government we have right now is conservative, and would like to get as many people as possible off free healthcare, and they keep cutting funding to our universities. But the systems are there and they've been shown to work, so it puzzles me why so many people can argue that they're theoretically bad or impossible.
Originally posted by Gracious:
I think it's wonderful that you love your country! I love mine too! I'm certain that if I visited yours, I'd be delighted with it. One thing for certain. If I saw some things that I didn't like about it, I wouldn't criticize it. Nor would I do that on a site hosted by Australians. |
Why not? |
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04/04/2003 12:26:56 AM · #602 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by Gracious:
Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean that people in Australia, and other countries don't debate the systems in place? If you think that is the case, that's simply not true. People debate politics wherever they are free to do so. Maybe that's not what you mean. Is it??? You said "Often Americans debate these issues as though they're the only people to ever be faced with them. Why don't you look at what works overseas and adopt the best systems? I don't understand." Do we Americans debate differently than the people you've heard, that makes you say that? An American style of debate??? |
No, jimmy described what I meant pretty well :). I see time and time again arguments over American government policies online, with people giving all kinds of weird reasons why free health care wouldn't work, or free education is a bad idea, or that improving the welfare system is wrong because handouts don't teach you to look after yourself, etc. It's strange to read these arguments, sitting here in a country that has the very policies that are being derided as unworkable or impossible. In terms of social policies, American governments seem to enjoy reinventing the wheel.
We definitely DO debate all the policies I described. The jobsearch system can be very difficult and has caused a lot of people to lose their benefits and become homeless because they messed up some paperwork. The government we have right now is conservative, and would like to get as many people as possible off free healthcare, and they keep cutting funding to our universities. But the systems are there and they've been shown to work, so it puzzles me why so many people can argue that they're theoretically bad or impossible.
Originally posted by Gracious:
I think it's wonderful that you love your country! I love mine too! I'm certain that if I visited yours, I'd be delighted with it. One thing for certain. If I saw some things that I didn't like about it, I wouldn't criticize it. Nor would I do that on a site hosted by Australians. |
Why not? |
free health care doesn't work lisae... recently, there was even a report of a women from australia that had to wait 3 weeks to get a ct scan and after that still could not get the treatment she needed. now she is here... plus, check our hospitals up north.. they are filled with canadians that have come over the border for the necessary health care they could not get for free
and as for welfare, it breeds laziness.. just look at what a debacle our welware system has become.. people have kids just to get more welfare money, homeless are everywhere... welfare doesn;t help them, it hinders them and keeps them down... not to mention that it goes against our core values of being an individual... making it on your own, and not having big brother take care of you...
Message edited by author 2003-04-04 00:41:08.
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04/04/2003 12:57:59 AM · #603 |
You promised you would refrain from stereotypical characterizations...
Please write your congress -person and suggest that if the minimum wage was (finctionally) higher than welfare benefits, more folks would get off welfare...oops, won't work -- that job just went to Indonesia so that some CEO can get his $3 million "bonus" this year...
Please explain which should be cheaper to run:
* a non-profit health care system with one billing system and no shareholders
* a for-profit health care system with a confusing multi-track billing system and shareholding investors?
Oh, I forgot... the system MUST SERVE EVERYONE EQUALLY.
I await your economic analysis...
My opinion is that people are so brainwashed about the "evils of government" that they would rather pay $180 in health insurance premiums than $80 in taxes... |
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04/04/2003 12:58:42 AM · #604 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
free health care doesn't work lisae... recently, there was even a report of a women from australia that had to wait 3 weeks to get a ct scan and after that still could not get the treatment she needed. now she is here... plus, check our hospitals up north.. they are filled with canadians that have come over the border for the necessary health care they could not get for free |
There are stories of people who suffer because of long waiting lists, but that's a result of mismanagement, not the system of free health care as a whole.
A couple of years ago I had a weird pain in the back of my head. I went to one of our 7 day a week, 24 hour clinics and had a consultation with a GP without having to pay a cent. He gave me a referral for a CT scan. I had the scan a few days later, for free. Turned out I was fine. I have some nice pictures of my brain though :).
Everyone in Australia has loads of stories of times they used our free system and it worked. Some people have stories of long waiting lists and bureaucratic errors. This does not indicate to me that the system doesn't work. Our current government made a big mistake of giving out huge tax rebates to people who signed up for private health insurance and got off medicare. A lot of people took the offer up. Then the private companies waited a little while and jacked up their premiums, something they promised the government they wouldn't do. People who couldn't afford them went back onto the free system. The money that was spent in rebates SHOULD have gone to the hospitals to reduce waiting lists. That's mismanagement.
Originally posted by Anachronite:
and as for welfare, it breeds laziness.. just look at what a debacle our welware system has become.. people have kids just to get more welfare money, homeless are everywhere... welfare doesn;t help them, it hinders them and keeps them down... not to mention that it goes against our core values of being an individual... making it on your own, and not having big brother take care of you... |
You mustn't have read my previous post. It doesn't have to be like that. You're making exactly the mistake I was talking about. |
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04/04/2003 01:10:18 AM · #605 |
no mistakes here... we know about free health care... courtesy of our neighbors to the north... they come here to pay for the services they can not get there... and I don;t blame them.. they need our medical services... it's more than mismanagment and a few stories... it's a serious problem..... lucky you got your scan and it was negative.. who knows if they would have found a way to treat something serious before it was too late.. or if they out right refused to treat you... one of the socialized medical plans hillary clinton tried to pass here involved a "gatekeeper".. a person who desided if you deserved the treatment you got....
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04/04/2003 01:22:15 AM · #606 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
lucky you got your scan and it was negative.. who knows if they would have found a way to treat something serious before it was too late.. or if they out right refused to treat you... one of the socialized medical plans hillary clinton tried to pass here involved a "gatekeeper".. a person who desided if you deserved the treatment you got.... |
This is a criticism I hear all the time about American HMOs, but never about our Medicare system. If you're on our free system, it pays for everything a doctor says you need done, and you can also get medicines more cheaply. Anything that is volunary or not life threatening has a lower priority than emergency operations, which is why there are some people suffering on waiting lists. That is our main problem, and can be fixed if the government would allocate more money to hospitals.
If anyone who can afford it wants better or faster treatment, they can pay to get into private care. You act as though the free system is the only option we have. Well, no. It's there for people who can't afford private health insurance. |
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04/04/2003 01:29:48 AM · #607 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
plus, check our hospitals up north.. they are filled with canadians that have come over the border for the necessary health care they could not get for free |
Please, provide the numbers which substantiate your claim that hospitals up north are "filled with canadians[sic]". Please also let us know exactly what you mean by "necessary health care" which we "could not get for free".
Any problems perceived in the Canadian health care system can be directly attributed to lack of funding. My interpretation is that lack of funding is due to poor judgement and/or mismanagement on the part of our government, specifically the provincial government.
Originally posted by Anachronite:
and as for welfare, it breeds laziness.. just look at what a debacle our welware system has become.. people have kids just to get more welfare money, homeless are everywhere... welfare doesn;t help them, it hinders them and keeps them down... not to mention that it goes against our core values of being an individual... making it on your own, and not having big brother take care of you... |
I can't comment on the welfare system in America, but arguing that the entire idea of social assistance doesn't work because a particular system/program doesn't work is fallacious.
GeneralE's "hypothetical challenge" is a good one and applies here too. Do the math. How well would welfare work for you?
This is not about economics either, it's a simple matter of human dignity.
While homelessness is arguably linked to the welfare issue, people usually don't see the homelessness associated with it; visible homelessness is altogether different.
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04/04/2003 02:08:25 AM · #608 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
no mistakes here... we know about free health care... courtesy of our neighbors to the north... they come here to pay for the services they can not get there... and I don;t blame them.. they need our medical services... it's more than mismanagment and a few stories... it's a serious problem..... lucky you got your scan and it was negative.. who knows if they would have found a way to treat something serious before it was too late.. or if they out right refused to treat you... one of the socialized medical plans hillary clinton tried to pass here involved a "gatekeeper".. a person who desided if you deserved the treatment you got.... |
Well, what you're seeing when Canadians come across the border is mostly the rich folk who are eager to have a low-priority procedure done. Our surgeries are done on a prioritised basis, according to need. Emergency and drastically needed surgeries are performed first and then the lower-priority ones are waitlisted. Waitlists aren't cool, and our government hasn't funded healthcare nearly enough these past years, but that doesn't mean that free healthcare doesn't serve the populus best. The rich that want to pay for the best private services in the States can do so if they wish, while the poor still get treated. I don't have a problem with people paying for a service elsewhere if they want it, just so long as they've got an option at home. While our system tries to serve everyone equally according to need, a private system of healthcare like the US system is full of stories of people bleeding in emergency because they don't have health coverage. I'd hate to be poor and sick in the States...or, mind, someone paying for prescription drugs.
In 2000, the World Health Organisation ranked Canada 30th and the US 38th worldwide in health care according to value, need met and services available. So, considering that we're a couple of the richest countries on the planet, neither one of us are doing too well.
Message edited by author 2003-04-04 13:33:22. |
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04/06/2003 01:11:24 PM · #609 |
| You guys think we can get this thread to 10,000 views? |
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04/06/2003 01:15:54 PM · #610 |
Originally posted by jimmythefish:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
no mistakes here... we know about free health care... courtesy of our neighbors to the north... they come here to pay for the services they can not get there... and I don;t blame them.. they need our medical services... it's more than mismanagment and a few stories... it's a serious problem..... lucky you got your scan and it was negative.. who knows if they would have found a way to treat something serious before it was too late.. or if they out right refused to treat you... one of the socialized medical plans hillary clinton tried to pass here involved a "gatekeeper".. a person who desided if you deserved the treatment you got.... |
Well, what you're seeing when Canadians come across the border is mostly the rich folk who are eager to have a low-priority procedure done. Our surgeries are done on a prioritised basis, according to need. Emergency and drastically needed surgeries are performed first and then the lower-priority ones are waitlisted. Waitlists aren't cool, and our government hasn't funded healthcare nearly enough these past years, but that doesn't mean that free healthcare doesn't serve the populus best. The rich that want to pay for the best private services in the States can do so if they wish, while the poor still get treated. I don't have a problem with people paying for a service elsewhere if they want it, just so long as they've got an option at home. While our system tries to serve everyone equally according to need, a private system of healthcare like the US system is full of stories of people bleeding in emergency because they don't have health coverage. I'd hate to be poor and sick in the States...or, mind, someone paying for prescription drugs.
In 2000, the World Health Organisation ranked Canada 30th and the US 38th worldwide in health care according to value, need met and services available. So, considering that we're a couple of the richest countries on the planet, neither one of us are doing too well. |
there is no denying that the HMO's have torn apart our healthcare system... but as for bleeding in emergency rooms, no, you are mistaken.. there is something called the halliburton act that requires hospitals that recieve federal funding to treat those in need... I have experianced this myself when I was younger and had no insurance... I was in a car accident and they treated me without cash or insurance
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04/06/2003 02:24:41 PM · #611 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
there is no denying that the HMO's have torn apart our healthcare system... but as for bleeding in emergency rooms, no, you are mistaken.. there is something called the halliburton act that requires hospitals that recieve federal funding to treat those in need... I have experianced this myself when I was younger and had no insurance... I was in a car accident and they treated me without cash or insurance |
The act you are referring to is the Hill-Burton Act (I won't try and blame the health-care mess on VP Cheney this time...)
The problem is those hospitals have limited liability under the act, and once they've used up their yearly allotment (around here it takes 4-6 months) they are not longer required to treat the indigent for free...they are then shuttled off to the County hostpital (overused, under-funded)...also the requirement expires after some number of years.
Our health care system works as a profit machine for insurance and pharmaceutical companies, but makes no sense from an actual health standpoint. |
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04/06/2003 02:35:30 PM · #612 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
there is no denying that the HMO's have torn apart our healthcare system... but as for bleeding in emergency rooms, no, you are mistaken.. there is something called the halliburton act that requires hospitals that recieve federal funding to treat those in need... I have experianced this myself when I was younger and had no insurance... I was in a car accident and they treated me without cash or insurance |
The act you are referring to is the Hill-Burton Act (I won't try and blame the health-care mess on VP Cheney this time...)
The problem is those hospitals have limited liability under the act, and once they've used up their yearly allotment (around here it takes 4-6 months) they are not longer required to treat the indigent for free...they are then shuttled off to the County hostpital (overused, under-funded)...also the requirement expires after some number of years.
Our health care system works as a profit machine for insurance and pharmaceutical companies, but makes no sense from an actual health standpoint. |
thatnks for the clarification on the hill-burton... I have never seen it in writting only heard the name spoken... just one of those things about our accents here in Texas...
don't get me wrong.. while I firmly do not support free or socialized medicine/healthcare, I think our healthcare system is completely screwed up... there is no reason I should pay $2,000 for 20 minutes in an MRI machine.. what a joke... there just doesn't seem to be a good answer...
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04/07/2003 03:36:40 PM · #613 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
don't get me wrong.. while I firmly do not support free or socialized medicine/healthcare, I think our healthcare system is completely screwed up... there is no reason I should pay $2,000 for 20 minutes in an MRI machine.. what a joke... there just doesn't seem to be a good answer... |
Yeah, I broke my thumb and had to fork out 1000 dollars for an xray and a splint. WTF!
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04/07/2003 06:01:01 PM · #614 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
don't get me wrong.. while I firmly do not support free or socialized medicine/healthcare, I think our healthcare system is completely screwed up... there is no reason I should pay $2,000 for 20 minutes in an MRI machine.. what a joke... there just doesn't seem to be a good answer... |
Yeah, I broke my thumb and had to fork out 1000 dollars for an xray and a splint. WTF! |
Mine was only dislocated, but they want about $1600. It's still in dispute...
You are actually in an area where I actually have some qualifications and experience (since 1974), but it will be a real distraction to wander off talking about that, so I will refrain from posting details here...
In the meantime, I'll try and track down the scan I made of the xray... |
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04/07/2003 06:37:38 PM · #615 |
My uncle sent me a link to a pretty good collection of quotations...a sample from the section "On Government"
If you want government to intervene domestically, you're a liberal.
If you want government to intervene overseas, you're a conservative.
If you want government to intervene everywhere, you're a moderate.
If you don't want government to intervene anywhere, you're an extremist.
--Joseph Sobran, Editor of the National Review (1995) |
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04/08/2003 10:39:13 AM · #616 |
GeneralIE ran across this:
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04/08/2003 05:41:06 PM · #617 |
Something e-mailed to me...I think it is worthy here.
I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of one plan for peace. "Books, not Bombs" won't work. Maybe another approach is needed.
Here's the plan:
1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of them good old boys'. We will never "interfere" again.
2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are.
4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. (If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.
5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get an "F" and it's back home, baby.
6) The U.S. will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.
7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.
8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides' most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any anyway.
9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?
Message edited by author 2003-04-08 17:45:22.
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04/08/2003 07:20:57 PM · #618 |
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04/08/2003 07:28:25 PM · #619 |
| At the current average state of the world's technology and civilization, life under siege is neither possible nor liberating. |
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04/08/2003 07:29:37 PM · #620 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
DaCrazyrn for President! |
I am unalterably opposed to all forms of dictatorship (where I am not dictator...) |
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04/08/2003 07:50:53 PM · #621 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
DaCrazyrn for President! |
I am unalterably opposed to all forms of dictatorship (where I am not dictator...) |
Me too! But at least I have one vote so far. LOL
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04/08/2003 10:25:34 PM · #622 |
the statement was actually tongue in cheek... however I do think 5 of the ideas are great and 5 others are completely not so great... which ones? lol I am done ranting for a while
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04/08/2003 11:05:39 PM · #623 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
the statement was actually tongue in cheek... lol I am done ranting for a while |
So was mine, just in case you weren't sure... |
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04/09/2003 12:21:50 PM · #624 |
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04/09/2003 06:58:26 PM · #625 |
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