Discover Freedom - DPChallenge Forums

04/02/2003 11:47:13 AM · #576

[quote=Geocide][quote=ChrisW123][quote=Geocide]

Here's somthing i just thought of. It seems that the regeime in iraq isn't that far from what america would be like if the religious right got their way. Forced prayer in schools, very rich dynastys that have the true power in washington, Executions for those who the society says has done wrong, forced codes of ethics, everyone would have rifels and hand guns etc...

As I've already suggested, why not think about what you say before you say it, rather than just shoot from the lip when you "just think of something?"
Can you please tell me who in America is trying for "forced prayer in schools" I think you are misinformed. What many are hoping for is the freedom of religion, and freedom of speech our constitution is based on. The right to pray! That means for all citizens. Those rights are being challenged by certain sectors of society. I won't even comment on THEM! Many of those same people are against our national flag being displayed as well.
In YOUR mind you are comparing "wow, that's not to diffrent from the "regeime"." But your facts are clouded.
I mean no offense to you but if you really want to make a point, stick to the facts, and stop slinging words as a weapon. "Blessed are the PEACE KEEPERS!

GeneralE, You said "Every day there are over 12 million undernourished children in the USA."
Perhaps we can look at this in context. I did a quick search online and couldn't find the info you are referring to.
About undernourishment, let's clarify, that is not the same as dying of starvation. I suspect that much of the undernourishment in the US, is due to children eating the wrong foods, and not necessarily do they not get enough.

We have food stamps, public assistance, WIC(which is a program for basic foods being supplied to Women,infants, and children, FREE,
as well as school lunch and breakfast programs, community gardens where feasible, EFNEP which I used to work for which stands for Expanded Food and Nutrition Education Program, Cooperative extension. It is a program to teach homemakers and children how to budget, shop for, and prepare healthy meals, as well as refer to organizations that can help. As a volunteer, and coordinator I worked at both food pantries, and soup kitchens. There has also been surplus food distributed to families over the years.
Could the undernourishment be due to parental neglect? Isn't it the duty of a parent to see that their children eat properly? Believe me, I know what tough times can be, but the US has many programs to help, and not all of our ills can be blamed on government.
Over the years I have worked closely with the poor, and many times rather than a lack of adequate food, the problem is lack of understanding.
'nuff said. :-)

PWIC
National School Lunch and Breakfast Program
EFNEP
Food Stamp Program

Our government does indeed have programs which prevent children from dying of starvation. But we shouldn't depend entirely on the government. We need to do our part as citizens!
Peace and blessings!

Grayce

Edited in: Btw, many, but not all, of the soup kitchens and food pantries are run by churches.

Message edited by author 2003-04-02 11:55:12.

04/02/2003 12:12:01 PM · #577

Grayce - i was saying if the religious right in the US got their way. I wasn't saying that is the case with today's gov't.

archial, i really do enjoy our insulting quips you silly silly man.

Message edited by author 2003-04-02 12:13:56.

joshua

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/02/2003 12:21:17 PM · #578

Originally posted by Geocide:

Grayce - i was saying if the religious right in the US got their way. I wasn't saying that is the case with today's gov't.

archial, i really do enjoy our insulting quips you silly silly man.

if you actually made sense that would be one thing, but you don't. i don't know why you live in america, but you sure don't belong here. you take advantage of the freedoms we have here and take them for granted and them come and say completely false things about your own country. why do you still live here?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/02/2003 12:26:39 PM · #579

Gracious--I know about those programs, and they are inadequate. We, the people, have "done something" about the problem -- it's called creating a democratic form of government which will exercise the people's desire to "provide for the common welfare" (as the Constitution puts it) and collect excess from those who can afford it and give it to those who need it.

Our (US) government is not some god-ordained structure forced upon us -- it is an organizational structure we created to carry out collectively certain things it is against our natural, selfish instincts to do individually.

I haven't been on food stampd for a very long time. While you are doing some research, would you mind comparing the monthly allotment for food stamps for a mom and two kids with a US Senator's per diem?

Certainly some of our nation's "malnutrition" is caused by incessantly marketed "super-sized" foods known to contribute to ill-health. Where is the responsibility of the "private sector" in this? If the government doesn't spend money to "educate" people, just who do you think will (voluntarily)? No one else's loyalty is supposed to be to the individual citizen; unfortunately, our government's priorities have been similarly misplaced to grant the rights of a private individual to corporations -- a bit of 19th Century legal gerrymandering which has directly led to today's corporate and political excesses...

Message edited by author 2003-04-02 12:29:02.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

04/02/2003 12:34:24 PM · #580

Originally posted by achiral:

Originally posted by Geocide:
Grayce - i was saying if the religious right in the US got their way. I wasn't saying that is the case with today's gov't.

archial, i really do enjoy our insulting quips you silly silly man.

if you actually made sense that would be one thing, but you don't. i don't know why you live in america, but you sure don't belong here. you take advantage of the freedoms we have here and take them for granted and them come and say completely false things about your own country. why do you still live here?

I enjoy many many things about this wonderful country I live in. And one of the things i enjoy most about this country is my right to voice my opinion on things i agree and disagree with. This is a thread about the war. I don't support this war. Therefore, i voice this opinion. I even make suggestions to what i beleive we should do.

If you are suggesting that I idly sit in my easy chair and watch thousands of innocent people get killed, then i respectfull deny this request.

Throughout american history people stood up for what they beleived and the country is better because of it. Now is no exception.

The country is not better if people always jump on board with what the president says without goving the issue thought. I've given this issue thought.

IF you support this war so much, why are you here, why don't you enlist and get over there with the soldigers who are forced to be there.

joshua

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/02/2003 02:25:24 PM · #581

like i said you have serious problems. you an outlier though, so you don't worry me

rcrawford

Nikon D300

04/02/2003 02:42:23 PM · #582

Originally posted by GeneralE:

....Certainly some of our nation's "malnutrition" is caused by incessantly marketed "super-sized" foods known to contribute to ill-health. Where is the responsibility of the "private sector" in this? If the government doesn't spend money to "educate" people, just who do you think will (voluntarily)? No one else's loyalty is supposed to be to the individual citizen; unfortunately, our government's priorities have been similarly misplaced to grant the rights of a private individual to corporations -- a bit of 19th Century legal gerrymandering which has directly led to today's corporate and political excesses...

OMG I don't see anything in you comment about personal responsibility. Do you really think that the government can solve all problems? It seems like you want the government to control every part of our personal life yet you scream that we are losing our freedoms because the government is taking them. You really can't have it both ways. How about parents take the responsibility to educate their children in nutrition. And my kids do get health education in public school. What more do you want? I must say that if people are so dumb in this country that they suffer from malnutrition then so be it. (I'm not talking about people that don't have enough food just the ones that can't figure out what to eat) Natural selection at work? I hope so.

Roger

04/02/2003 03:49:24 PM · #583

Originally posted by achiral:

like i said you have serious problems. you an outlier though, so you don't worry me

Oh com'on archial, you can do better than that. ;)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/02/2003 03:49:40 PM · #584

I take the responsibility to vote for someone charged with passing and enforcing laws prohibiting other individuals and corporations from plying me (and my kid) with deceptive and repetitive advertising over the public airwaves. People would be more prepared and informed to take personal responsibility if schools had enough money for books and films and things to counter the "media-consumer goods" complex.

You act as if there is no role for government -- what is it's (domestic) purpose, if not to protect the disadvantaged from those seeking self-aggrandizement at their further expense?

Here at DPC we make a big deal out of "leveling the playing field" so those with fancy cameras won't overwhelm those with cheaper equipment. Why shouldn't that principle carry over into life in general? I dare anyone to claim that every child born in the USA actually has an "equal opportunity" to succeed...I myself consider it obscene to allow anyone to have BILLIONS of dollars while there are kids without food, shelter, and health care.

Well, as through this world I've rambled,
I've seen lots of funny men.
Som rob you with a six-gun,
Some with a fountain pen.

Woody Guthrie
Pretty Boy Floyd

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

04/02/2003 05:00:40 PM · #585

Hey, We aren't going to solve all the world's social ills here but shaking our fists at others, including governments, and crying out "why doesn't somebody do something" just won't cut it.
There are many ways we can contribute to helping the less fortunate. I've worked with the poor all my adult life. Some of my dearest friends have been on various forms of public assistance. Giving an increase in Food stamps simply doesn't work. I've heard countless people say, "It just doesn't pay for me to go to work. On welfare I get food, medical, housing subsidy, etc. If I work I have to pay for all that myself." I know NOT all recipients feel this way. But a system of handouts doesn't build self esteem, nor self reliance.
I believe, with all my heart, in helping those less fortunate than I, because of my deep christian convictions. My credo is a verse from the Bible. "Give to the poor, and you lend to God." Jesus said "If you have done it to the least, you have done it unto me."
But I take the responsibility personally. The Government works to a point, but we each need to carry a certain amount of weight, do our part.
My solitary vote, though an important responsibility, doesn't accomplish as much as rolling up my sleeves and pitching in.
Ok...I think I'm gonna try to jump out of this rant room.
Peace and blessings!
Grayce

joshua

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/02/2003 06:52:54 PM · #586

Originally posted by Geocide:

Originally posted by achiral:
like i said you have serious problems. you an outlier though, so you don't worry me

Oh com'on archial, you can do better than that. ;)

there is no arguing with you. your mind is so distorted, even most liberals in this country would disagree with the stuff you say. so it's pointless, i'm not going to join you in your personal hell

rcrawford

Nikon D300

04/02/2003 07:36:07 PM · #587

Originally posted by GeneralE:

It sounds like you believe that you are too weak to control yourself and that you need the government to step in and help you and that without government intervention you are not capable of deciding what is best for you and your family. Do you need the government to force you to help the less fortunate, I voluntarily give 10 percent of my income to my church, that money is used for good all over the world, by people I trust. The government has not earned that same level of trust from me.

It seems to me that you are more concerned about getting other people to help/pay than just doing what ever you can yourself. Stop worrying about the evil billionaires, roll up your sleeves and go to work. You will be much happier.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/02/2003 09:05:41 PM · #588

I've worked for 17 years at a drug treatment program, where I do my very best to help people with a variety of medical, psychological, social, and economic problems do THEIR best to address these concerns within our limited combined resources. Prior to that I worked for 12 years at a community free clinic, where we like-wise attempted to address the multitude of cascading problems facing the underemployed, underhoused, and underfed "under-class" we all would prefer to overlook.

I've been poor enough to qualify for Food Stamps. It is a lot of work to get on welfare -- it works out to about $2/hour...

I have a hypothetical challenge for you: Try to live for two months on whatever government assistance you'd qualify for (in your location) if you were unemployed, but ineligble for unemployment insurance... ah...and don't use your car if you have one...maybe give up the phone too...I'll let you keep the bed, stove, and refrigerator and not make you simulate complete homelessness.
Please let me know if you really ENJOY dumpster-diving.

Sorry, I just want government to do the job it was intended for, provide for the welfare and defense of its CITIZENS, not act as a US Chamber of Commerce/corporate subsidizer and private club for the well-connected...

Message edited by author 2003-04-02 21:07:12.

rcrawford

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

04/02/2003 09:53:08 PM · #589

I have the highest admiration for people that get in and do the hard work. Thank you.

My niece is a social worker as are some other members of my family; they have stories that will break your heart so I know that there are a lot of people out there that need our help. I just think that the government is not end all to every social problem. Private charities are much more efficient.

Your right I have never been homeless and I have no idea how much government assistance is even available in my area because I have never needed it. I thank God for that. That said; I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I put myself through school and I have worked more that one job for most of my life. I go to work everyday, I have never used any kind of illegal drug, I have never broken the law, and I have made the day-to-day personal decisions that lead to success not homelessness. Poverty is not a birth defect and can be overcome. Our job, if we really want to help, is to teach people how to make the right decisions that will lead to self-esteem and self-reliance.

Having the government suck more people into dependence is not the answer. Hard work and opportunity is.

Message edited by author 2003-04-02 21:53:53.

04/02/2003 10:19:30 PM · #590

RCrawford...I agree about the tithe. I do the same. I also have a high regard for those who are working to make the world a better place. Thank you GeneralE!!! It seems to me we have the same goal here, to help those less fortunate.
About being homeless...well, few people know this, but I've been there.
About needing help, been there too. I am actually disabled and truly unable to hold a job at this point. I've been denied benefits, and am living hand to mouth. So I DO know what it's like to do without. On the other hand, I feel so blessed!!! I know enough about food and nutrition, and survival to keep going. As needy as some may see me, I still think our country does a pretty decent job of caring for the poor. Perfect? Nahhhh, but consider the alternatives. Why do immigrants continue to pour onto our shores? Because we are a nation who cares. We do have programs to help through government, and through the wonderful, compassionate citizens that make up the USA. They come from around the world to make a better life for themselves and others.
I have also worked for the very, very rich, as a private chef. They were billionaires, and they were nice folks. Just rich. I don't really think that we should all have equal shares, or begrudge the wealthy. My priority isn't, nor has it ever been, money. I live simply, and have pursued simplicity all my adult life. If someone wishes to pursue the bucks, that's their problem. It's a chain around their neck, and I don't envy them.
At times, I've been ready to draw the sword, so to speak, in defense of the poor. But in my heart I believe that God is the equalizer. My reward isn't here but I look forward to a better day for me and others who struggle daily.
I know this sounds a lot like preaching, but hey, you can't separate a person from their convictions. Maybe it is preaching, but it's who I am.
I respect every single person here on dpc. We may disagree, but that's ok too.
Peace and blessings!

Grayce

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/03/2003 12:46:39 AM · #591

Thank you both for your appreciation -- it always helps when it seems as though people are listening even if they disagree.

Remember that government is supposed to be a voluntary association/corporation with all citizens as shareholders. The major difference in principle between government and private services is that the government is not allowed to arbitrarily pick and choose its clientele, but is supposed to serve all equally.

Don't you think it is a more "proper" role of government to provide the basic necessities to the disadvantaged than provideing bailouts and tax breaks to multi-billion-dollor corporations? Let's let the "private sector" succeeed or fail on its merits, and quit providing corporate welfare too.

04/03/2003 10:25:30 AM · #592

It seems that way to me, but the corporation's failure would mean jobs lost too. Everything has ramifications. It's all so complicated, and has a domino effect.
peace and blessings,

Grayce

04/03/2003 11:10:01 AM · #593

Originally posted by achiral:

Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by achiral:
like i said you have serious problems. you an outlier though, so you don't worry me

Oh com'on archial, you can do better than that. ;)

there is no arguing with you. your mind is so distorted, even most liberals in this country would disagree with the stuff you say. so it's pointless, i'm not going to join you in your personal hell

I'm curious, what would they disagree with? The fact that in a democratic goverment people should think on their own feet rather than blindly follow anyone?

my bottom line: The gulf war created Bin Ladden, this war will create many many more. I only hope that the people of iraq end up better off because of this conflict. Which, for many families will be near impossible due to the loss of so many of their loved ones.

I'm not from iraq, so it's difficut for me to place an acurrate judgement on this war. From what i do know, i don't support with without the backing of the UN.

Message edited by author 2003-04-03 11:23:51.

lisae

Olympus C-720UZ

04/03/2003 11:28:12 AM · #594

Living in a country with free health care, free education, and what is still a fairly strong welfare safety net, I don't understand why these things are still debated in the US. They have been proven to work in countless countries around the world.

I'm on unemployment benefits right now because I split up with my boyfriend, who was supporting me financially while I tried to start my own business, do part-time study and some freelance work. I'm now applying for a government scheme that might help me continue setting up my own business by supporting me financially for a year and providing me with a business management course and other mentoring programs. In case I don't get into that, I'm applying for jobs, which you are required to do here when you're on unemployment benefits - you have to fill in a diary to show that you've applied for 10 jobs every 2 weeks. If you don't find work after a certain period of time, the government puts you on a training program to help you write a better resume or do interviews more effectively, etc. Then after 6 months you have to do a "mutual obligation" task, like community work.

I've found the system very difficult to get used to, personally, and I know people who have worked out the easiest ways to cheat it (but they don't get away with it completely. The training and mutual obligation tasks get them in the end). But I think all this shows the kind of role the government can take in people's lives, without just giving handouts, while still being accessible. I love having free health care and free education especially. My university degree didn't require any tuition fees up front at all, and it was at Australia's best university (we only have 2 private universities in this country). I have a debt to the government that I will pay off through taxes after I earn over a certain threshhold (I've never earned that much so far).

Often Americans debate these issues as though they're the only people to ever be faced with them. Why don't you look at what works overseas and adopt the best systems? I don't understand.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/03/2003 09:56:02 PM · #595

Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean that people in Australia, and other countries don't debate the systems in place? If you think that is the case, that's simply not true. People debate politics wherever they are free to do so. Maybe that's not what you mean. Is it??? You said "Often Americans debate these issues as though they're the only people to ever be faced with them. Why don't you look at what works overseas and adopt the best systems? I don't understand." Do we Americans debate differently than the people you've heard, that makes you say that? An American style of debate???
Of all the people I know from different lands, most of the debating is quite similar. Except for the Italians who yell...lol....I am Italian American. LOL....my family is loud...lol
About the programs you mentioned that your fine country offers, some of them are also available here. One that is not, is free health care. I'd like to see that here. But I must say that there are so many other benefits to living here in our fine country.
The government paid for me to take a "Women's Entrepeneurial" course, and also paid for me to return to college. They paid for my books, milage on my car, and would have paid for childcare if I had a need for that.

We also have unemployment insurance which pays a person who has become unemployed, and is seeking employment. Sometimes benefits are also extended for longer periods of time.
Our welfare system in recent years has also required those who are able to do some type of community service work as well.

I think it's wonderful that you love your country! I love mine too! I'm certain that if I visited yours, I'd be delighted with it. One thing for certain. If I saw some things that I didn't like about it, I wouldn't criticize it. Nor would I do that on a site hosted by Australians.

Most of my ancestors immigrated from Italy, Ireland, Scotland, and England, and my maternal grandmother was half native American. I am so grateful they came here. I love it here. Sure our government has problems, like all governments, but it's still a great place.

Anyway Lisa, no offense, just looking to understand your point of view and clarify how some of us Americans feel.
Peace and blessings,

Grayce :-)

jimmythefish

Canon EOS-10D

04/03/2003 10:26:02 PM · #596

Gracious,

I think what Lisa meant is that Americans aren't known to look to other countries' examples of governmental policies which work well. She is suggesting that the US could adopt elements of the Australian model, as it seems to hold the welfare or employment insurance recipient accountable much more than the US (or, in my experience, Canadian) model. Your government often chooses not to learn from others through example, and instead makes its own policies through internal processes [which indeed involve dabate].

James.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/03/2003 11:03:51 PM · #597

Originally posted by Gracious:

Except for the Italians who yell...lol....I am Italian American. LOL....my family is loud...lol...
Grayce :-)

hehe, This is a bit of a tangent, but i wonder if Americans are the only culture that doesnâ��t really see itself as a full sized culture. Is it only in American that everyone has two or more nationality? In other words, are there French-British or Australian-Austrian and would they describe themselves as that. Do you other countries have anything akin to this phenomenon here in the us?

Message edited by author 2003-04-03 23:04:10.

jimmythefish

Canon EOS-10D

04/03/2003 11:34:42 PM · #598

Originally posted by Geocide:

Originally posted by Gracious:
Except for the Italians who yell...lol....I am Italian American. LOL....my family is loud...lol...
Grayce :-)

hehe, This is a bit of a tangent, but i wonder if Americans are the only culture that doesnâ��t really see itself as a full sized culture. Is it only in American that everyone has two or more nationality? In other words, are there French-British or Australian-Austrian and would they describe themselves as that. Do you other countries have anything akin to this phenomenon here in the us?

Globalism being what it is, there are more mutts out there than purebreds, if you know what I mean. Countries in Western Europe are notably full of people with very mixed backgrounds, so much so that it's harder to form a nationalistic identity than a European identity in some cases. This is particularly true in large cities. London is a world of its own - I don't think you could find a culture that isn't represented in London.

I know that it probably goes without saying, but Canada is very similar to the US in its ethnic diversity. Perhaps even more so recently, as our immigration policies are more open than the States'. My father was born in England, and my mother was born here to first-generation Canadians. I don't have a British passport for the sole reason that I'm adopted and my folks were unaware that they had to register me before I was 18. My brother has dual citizenship.

It's the story with a lot of other Canadians. We see ourselves as Canadian first, but as we're less than 150 years old, most everyone except the native population still knows and has some ties to their (mostly European) heritage.

James.

Message edited by author 2003-04-03 23:36:39.

04/03/2003 11:56:21 PM · #599

Geocide and Jimmy....funny. I rarely refer to myself as any ethnicity actually. Basically I am an American, but I am also proud of the various roots in which I have my being. Actually I have a great interest in cultures of all sorts, including North American sub-cultures, of which there are so many. We are a very diverse society and I am just fascinated by it. I like the idea of maintaining and promoting cultures rather than becoming one big homogenous mass...lol
If I had to describe myself in terms of identity it would be something like this...Italian/Irish/Scottish/English/Native American, Born again, spirit-filled Christian, native Bronxite/refugee/transplanted to Florida after a long tenure in upstate New York in the back woods.
Oh geeeeeeeeeeeee what a mutt! LOL