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03/24/2003 10:03:47 AM · #451 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by achiral:
I would agree with you if i thought france germany russia and china were on the side of iraq or any of those countries, but the fact is no super power wants to get involved in pakistan or india's problems. |
But the point is that, with the UN now undermined by the US and its allies, we have one less tool to keep these situations under control. Europe has been split by this war. NATO has also been split. We are all in a very weak position here.
Originally posted by achiral:
i think it's time to stop having such a bleak world view and focus on actually improving situations in the area, not sitting back and opining about eschatology |
Jesus... Turkey already has troops lined up, and a massacre has started a new round of tensions in Kashmir, and you say I just have a "bleak world view"? |
the claim that there are new tensions in Kashmir is pure bs. this has been going on for decades. jesus, massacres happen in america all the time. you are a doomsdayer trying to instill fear in people to get your point across. i'm not afraid of any of this you're talking about. there's no point in being afraid because it just turns you into a person who can't handle reality. you can sit back and cry ww3 and american imperialism, but the fact is you're just scared and have no real solutions to any problems. i feel sorry for you
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03/24/2003 10:15:58 AM · #452 |
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by achiral:
I would agree with you if i thought france germany russia and china were on the side of iraq or any of those countries, but the fact is no super power wants to get involved in pakistan or india's problems. |
But the point is that, with the UN now undermined by the US and its allies, we have one less tool to keep these situations under control. Europe has been split by this war. NATO has also been split. We are all in a very weak position here.
Originally posted by achiral:
i think it's time to stop having such a bleak world view and focus on actually improving situations in the area, not sitting back and opining about eschatology |
Jesus... Turkey already has troops lined up, and a massacre has started a new round of tensions in Kashmir, and you say I just have a "bleak world view"? |
the claim that there are new tensions in Kashmir is pure bs. this has been going on for decades. jesus, massacres happen in america all the time. you are a doomsdayer trying to instill fear in people to get your point across. i'm not afraid of any of this you're talking about. there's no point in being afraid because it just turns you into a person who can't handle reality. you can sit back and cry ww3 and american imperialism, but the fact is you're just scared and have no real solutions to any problems. i feel sorry for you |
I don't agree with either one of you, but do have this to say: achiral how many solutions have you come up with? The fact is none of us have any answers, and even if we did, it wouldn't change a thing. The sad reality is our opinions are just that, opinions. They don't mean anything for anybody but ourselves. A forum like this is great for venting some pressure, getting things off your chest, but nothing more. Or do you think the CIA scans these things looking for the answers to global questions? Now that's a scary thought:)
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03/24/2003 10:31:46 AM · #453 |
Originally posted by Martus:
The sad reality is our opinions are just that, opinions. They don't mean anything for anybody but ourselves. A forum like this is great for venting some pressure, getting things off your chest, but nothing more. Or do you think the CIA scans these things looking for the answers to global questions? Now that's a scary thought:) |
Espically when we have a president that refuses to listen to the opinions of the american people and the rest of the world. A president that's hell-bent on war.
Message edited by author 2003-03-24 10:32:03.
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03/24/2003 10:34:20 AM · #454 |
Originally posted by achiral:
the claim that there are new tensions in Kashmir is pure bs. this has been going on for decades. |
Sigh... You just don't get it! This war is enflaming Muslim extremists. The author of this article seems to know better than you do. She says:
Arab Muslims feel it is not only their religious identity that is under siege, researcher Rashwan said. They fear the United States plans to redraw the region's map, starting with Iraq, and that threatens their political and ethnic identities. In reaction to being "surrounded," Rashwan said, Muslims are talking of jihad in the sense of legitimate self-defense.
Complaints the United States is targeting Islam have been building because of what is seen as unfair U.S. support for Israel against the Palestinians and for India against Muslims in Kashmir and the demonization of Muslims in the Western media since the Sept. 11 attacks. The war on Afghanistan that opened the post-Sept. 11 war on terror and now the war on Iraq, accused by the United States of threatening the world with alleged weapons of mass destruction, has fueled the fire.
You seem like you want to be able to enjoy this war and not be worried by niggling little details like Muslim extremism being enflamed. It's lovely that you feel sorry for me... maybe you should feel sorry for all the people who have died so far and will die as a result of this conflict instead.
Of course I'm scared! Who wouldn't be when we're in the midst of a war? All the solutions I and MANY MILLIONS of other people would have preferred were abandoned. Sorry that I don't have any "solutions" to this mess Bush created. There were many other ways it could have gone. |
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03/24/2003 10:53:45 AM · #455 |
Originally posted by Martus:
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by achiral:
I would agree with you if i thought france germany russia and china were on the side of iraq or any of those countries, but the fact is no super power wants to get involved in pakistan or india's problems. |
But the point is that, with the UN now undermined by the US and its allies, we have one less tool to keep these situations under control. Europe has been split by this war. NATO has also been split. We are all in a very weak position here.
Originally posted by achiral:
i think it's time to stop having such a bleak world view and focus on actually improving situations in the area, not sitting back and opining about eschatology |
Jesus... Turkey already has troops lined up, and a massacre has started a new round of tensions in Kashmir, and you say I just have a "bleak world view"? |
the claim that there are new tensions in Kashmir is pure bs. this has been going on for decades. jesus, massacres happen in america all the time. you are a doomsdayer trying to instill fear in people to get your point across. i'm not afraid of any of this you're talking about. there's no point in being afraid because it just turns you into a person who can't handle reality. you can sit back and cry ww3 and american imperialism, but the fact is you're just scared and have no real solutions to any problems. i feel sorry for you |
I don't agree with either one of you, but do have this to say: achiral how many solutions have you come up with? The fact is none of us have any answers, and even if we did, it wouldn't change a thing. The sad reality is our opinions are just that, opinions. They don't mean anything for anybody but ourselves. A forum like this is great for venting some pressure, getting things off your chest, but nothing more. Or do you think the CIA scans these things looking for the answers to global questions? Now that's a scary thought:) |
my solution is the only one that has actually been enacted, that being the US going in and toppling Saddam. as much as I would have liked to see the UN stand up to Iraq it is obvious that they never would have. france had no new plan except for what had already been going on for the last 12 years. i'm sorry if people can't realize when inspections don't work, they will probably never understand. the fact is that america is acting where the UN refused to. shrinking to a dictator regime for the sake of peace is the lowest form of cowardice there is in the world.
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03/24/2003 10:57:58 AM · #456 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by achiral:
the claim that there are new tensions in Kashmir is pure bs. this has been going on for decades. |
Sigh... You just don't get it! This war is enflaming Muslim extremists. The author of this article seems to know better than you do. She says:
Arab Muslims feel it is not only their religious identity that is under siege, researcher Rashwan said. They fear the United States plans to redraw the region's map, starting with Iraq, and that threatens their political and ethnic identities. In reaction to being "surrounded," Rashwan said, Muslims are talking of jihad in the sense of legitimate self-defense.
Complaints the United States is targeting Islam have been building because of what is seen as unfair U.S. support for Israel against the Palestinians and for India against Muslims in Kashmir and the demonization of Muslims in the Western media since the Sept. 11 attacks. The war on Afghanistan that opened the post-Sept. 11 war on terror and now the war on Iraq, accused by the United States of threatening the world with alleged weapons of mass destruction, has fueled the fire.
You seem like you want to be able to enjoy this war and not be worried by niggling little details like Muslim extremism being enflamed. It's lovely that you feel sorry for me... maybe you should feel sorry for all the people who have died so far and will die as a result of this conflict instead.
Of course I'm scared! Who wouldn't be when we're in the midst of a war? All the solutions I and MANY MILLIONS of other people would have preferred were abandoned. Sorry that I don't have any "solutions" to this mess Bush created. There were many other ways it could have gone. |
Go ahead and make yourself look silly, I don't care. you are so one sided it amazes me. bush did this bush did that. saddam is innocent, theree is no proof. you know it's really amazing what comes out of your mouth. muslim extremists hated us long before this conflict. the trade center attacks is a perfect example of why you are wrong. there was no war at that time to inflame muslim hatred of us. they always have and always will, this war isn't going to add much to that already major inferno. but hey, you and your long sided view of history can keep looking at only the last year when you make statements, the rest of the world is not that blind.
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03/24/2003 11:10:09 AM · #457 |
Originally posted by achiral:
muslim extremists hated us long before this conflict. the trade center attacks is a perfect example of why you are wrong. there was no war at that time to inflame muslim hatred of us. they always have and always will, this war isn't going to add much to that already major inferno. |
Uh... no. The WTC attacks are a perfect example of why YOU are wrong. Why did a group of people who were America's friends in the 80s during the Afghan war turn against their benefactor? They haven't always hated the US. Historians call it "blowback", and they are finding many, many seeds for new blowback events in the current conflict. |
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03/24/2003 11:19:43 AM · #458 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by achiral:
muslim extremists hated us long before this conflict. the trade center attacks is a perfect example of why you are wrong. there was no war at that time to inflame muslim hatred of us. they always have and always will, this war isn't going to add much to that already major inferno. |
Uh... no. The WTC attacks are a perfect example of why YOU are wrong. Why did a group of people who were America's friends in the 80s during the Afghan war turn against their benefactor? They haven't always hated the US. Historians call it "blowback", and they are finding many, many seeds for new blowback events in the current conflict. |
no my point was how can it get any worse? i'm sure you have some doomsday proposal, and would like hear it. i need a good chuckle
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03/24/2003 11:25:48 AM · #459 |
Achiral. Can you please stop insulting people? Seriously. It's quite rude, and unecessary. If you disagree with somebody, just state why, and leave it at that.
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03/24/2003 11:31:22 AM · #460 |
Originally posted by achiral:
no my point was how can it get any worse? i'm sure you have some doomsday proposal, and would like hear it. i need a good chuckle |
Well, personally I consider it a bad thing if this war leads to more conflict and more terrorist attacks. I would have thought this stance didn't need any further justification. A war like this one is only going to lead to more conflict and more terrorism, when pressure on Israel/Palestine to go back to peace talks, insistence that Musharraf step down and allow elections and that India and Pakistan both destroy their nuclear weapons, etc. could have avoided all this.
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03/24/2003 11:32:35 AM · #461 |
Originally posted by Annida:
Achiral. Can you please stop insulting people? Seriously. It's quite rude, and unecessary. If you disagree with somebody, just state why, and leave it at that. |
that's what i have been doing. thanks for moderating though
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03/24/2003 11:45:07 AM · #462 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by achiral:
no my point was how can it get any worse? i'm sure you have some doomsday proposal, and would like hear it. i need a good chuckle |
Well, personally I consider it a bad thing if this war leads to more conflict and more terrorist attacks. I would have thought this stance didn't need any further justification. A war like this one is only going to lead to more conflict and more terrorism, when pressure on Israel/Palestine to go back to peace talks, insistence that Musharraf step down and allow elections and that India and Pakistan both destroy their nuclear weapons, etc. could have avoided all this. |
what does this have to do with what is going on in Iraq? besides the connection between saddam paying tens of thousands of dollars to palestinian suicide bombers, and getting rid of that threat, i see no real connection. plus your suggestions here raise the same type of problems at the UN once again. i doubt pakistan or india will ever agree to get rid of nuclear weapons. i also doubt that they will ever actually use them against each other, i think they will mainly be used as deterence, as they have been for some time
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03/24/2003 12:03:53 PM · #463 |
Originally posted by achiral:
what does this have to do with what is going on in Iraq? besides the connection between saddam paying tens of thousands of dollars to palestinian suicide bombers, and getting rid of that threat, i see no real connection. |
From this article: Simmering Rage Threat to Regimes (originally from the Chicago Tribune)
Despite Bush's promises of a new era of democracy for Arab nations, many predict that the Iraq war will result only in a new era of repression, with the tacit support of a U.S. administration that needs to secure its allies and its military bases in the region.
"When the United States requests support from Arab governments for unpopular policies, the outcome is almost always increased repression as governments fear their public's anger and unleash their security services to pre-empt opposition," said a commentary in the Beirut Daily Star. "And American acquiescence to crackdowns is enhanced by the fear that opening up politically could lead to elected governments that are likely to be less friendly to American foreign policy, including Islamist groups."
That is one reason why so many Arabs find it hard to believe the Bush administration's assurances that America wants to see democratization in the Middle East, said Georges Jabbour, a member of the Syrian parliament and a professor of politics at Damascus University. He added that true democracy in the Middle East would likely see the return of conservative, Islamist governments that would hardly be friendly to U.S. interests in the region, and could well ally themselves with the forces of terrorism that America has vowed to defeat.
Some Arab observers, however, suspect the warnings of Islamic fundamentalism from Arab leaders are self-serving, designed to secure America's unquestioning support for their repressive regimes. "This is why the Arab states are so antsy. They don't care about Iraq. They want the status quo," said Hassan al Ansari, director of the Gulf Studies Center at Qatar University. "It is just scaring the Arab public and scaring the U.S. when they say that if there is democracy tomorrow they will vote us [U.S.-allied regimes] out of power," he said.
But others believe the threat is real, and growing. "The pressure, the humiliation, the lack of freedom--these all have been building for 20 years," said Masri, the former Jordanian prime minister. "To underestimate the serious long-term repercussions of this is to underestimate this wave of fundamentalism that has been accumulating for a long time, and which was already felt in America on Sept. 11." |
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03/24/2003 02:30:35 PM · #464 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
And why would anyone blame the US for a missle that hits a tank filled with chemical weapons, don't you think that SADDAM should be blamed for having them in the first place? |
They might blame the US for selling him the materiel in the first place...
Message edited by author 2003-03-24 14:57:21. |
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03/24/2003 02:43:36 PM · #465 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
[quote=ChrisW123And why would anyone blame the US for a missle that hits a tank filled with chemical weapons, don't you think that SADDAM should be blamed for having them in the first place? |
They might blame the US for selling him the materiel in the first place...[/quote]
that is so true. and if israel were to attack anyone it would be our fault because we gave them the capability. that argument goes nowhere because the united states has helped many many countries when it comes to military technology.
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03/24/2003 03:16:16 PM · #466 |
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
And why would anyone blame the US for a missle that hits a tank filled with chemical weapons, don't you think that SADDAM should be blamed for having them in the first place? |
They might blame the US for selling him the materiel in the first place... |
that is so true. and if israel were to attack anyone it would be our fault because we gave them the capability. that argument goes nowhere because the united states has helped many many countries when it comes to military technology. |
Which is one reason I'm so disturbed by our attempt to maintain the moral high ground...the US supports arming the world so our industrial magnates can profit, and then they can profit again when we have to destroy the "immoral" stuff.
To sell a weapon to someone likely to use it illegally makes the seller an "accessory before the fact" in American jurisprudence. Please don't try and tell me we didn't know Mr. Hussein was a brutal dictator when we sold him the stuff... |
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03/24/2003 03:32:49 PM · #467 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
And why would anyone blame the US for a missle that hits a tank filled with chemical weapons, don't you think that SADDAM should be blamed for having them in the first place? |
They might blame the US for selling him the materiel in the first place... |
that is so true. and if israel were to attack anyone it would be our fault because we gave them the capability. that argument goes nowhere because the united states has helped many many countries when it comes to military technology. |
Which is one reason I'm so disturbed by our attempt to maintain the moral high ground...the US supports arming the world so our industrial magnates can profit, and then they can profit again when we have to destroy the "immoral" stuff.
To sell a weapon to someone likely to use it illegally makes the seller an "accessory before the fact" in American jurisprudence. Please don't try and tell me we didn't know Mr. Hussein was a brutal dictator when we sold him the stuff... |
yes there is blood on america's hands for sure. this is commonplace in the world though, it isn't unique to the US. many other countries exchange and spread their technology. it's part of the world economy
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03/24/2003 03:33:45 PM · #468 |
Achiral, can't you see the total mess that this war will cause in the middle east? It's not just a matter of getting rid of Saddam. I know that Lisae has stated everything before, but Saddam, as bad as he is, is the glue that's holding the region in relative stability right now.
What's going to happen when Baghdad is in chaos and the Iraqis can no longer hold down the Kurds in the north? The only thing holding back Turkey, the Kurds and Iran from fighting it out over a northern territory, which they all lay claim to, is Iraq and Saddam. You're starting a whole new war by destabilising the Iraqi leadership in this manner. The colalition will not be able to sustain martial law over the whole area.
Ridding the region of Saddam as an argument for the removal of terrorism is a top-down solution to a bottom-up problem. He's the product of an extremist, religious-based society and was born from conflict and hatred. This deeply divided region will not change with the removal of one regime. Others will take its place. Bush's war is simply driving a stake into a line dividing Arab Muslims and the West. It's making relations worse; it's sowing the seeds of hatred. This will bring more terrorism, not less.
Nobody is saying that Saddam is a good guy. He's a terrible, evil dictator. But, we should have been much, much more diplomatic with the situation than we were. Bush has used Saddam as an excuse, muddying this issue and the war on terror such that a significant percentage of the American public can't make a clear distinction between this and the terror war. Why did he wait this long to do something, if we knew that Saddam was a threat? Why use UN resolutions as a reason if he's now ignoring the UN?
This war is a smokescreen for other issues, and will open up a chasm of hatred that we will pay for in decades of unrest and instability worldwide.
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03/24/2003 04:08:04 PM · #469 |
Reprinted from the S.F. Chronicle, Letters Section, 3/21/03
Note: I am assuming the author would want this reprinted, even if the Hearst Corporation might not. Title provided by Chronicle editors.
Why dissent will survive
Editor -- In California, we teach our K-12 students the importance of cooperation and conflict resolution. We teach them that bullying is unaccepable behavior and that cheating is self-destructive. We teach them to understand and protect the environment to ensure a safe and plentiful future.
Is it any wonder that many of us disagree with the motives and actions of our government and corporate leaders? As long as there are those of us who care about our country and its place on our planet, and those of us who want a clear and present safety for our children, there will be dissent.
P.L. Willy
Alamo, California |
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03/24/2003 04:21:42 PM · #470 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Reprinted from the S.F. Chronicle, Letters Section, 3/21/03
Note: I am assuming the author would want this reprinted, even if the Hearst Corporation might not. Title provided by Chronicle editors.
Why dissent will survive
Editor -- In California, we teach our K-12 students the importance of cooperation and conflict resolution. We teach them that bullying is unaccepable behavior and that cheating is self-destructive. We teach them to understand and protect the environment to ensure a safe and plentiful future.
Is it any wonder that many of us disagree with the motives and actions of our government and corporate leaders? As long as there are those of us who care about our country and its place on our planet, and those of us who want a clear and present safety for our children, there will be dissent.
P.L. Willy
Alamo, California |
actually this amounts to brainwashing of children, that's all. entering political viewpoints in the classroom is wrong. let the kids think for themselves. talking about basically training children to grow up having the same viewpoints as the dissenter is morally wrong and should be illegal
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03/24/2003 04:25:25 PM · #471 |
If you wave white flag , you get shot???
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03/24/2003 04:26:14 PM · #472 |
Originally posted by achiral:
actually this amounts to brainwashing of children, that's all. entering political viewpoints in the classroom is wrong. let the kids think for themselves. talking about basically training children to grow up having the same viewpoints as the dissenter is morally wrong and should be illegal |
Umm...it simply stated that kids are taught cooperation, conflict resolution, and the importance of not bullying and not cheating. In your own words, teaching this amounts to dissent? Dude, that's messed up.
James. |
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03/24/2003 04:31:42 PM · #473 |
test
Message edited by author 2003-03-24 16:52:24.
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03/24/2003 04:42:48 PM · #474 |
Originally posted by jimmythefish:
Originally posted by achiral:
actually this amounts to brainwashing of children, that's all. entering political viewpoints in the classroom is wrong. let the kids think for themselves. talking about basically training children to grow up having the same viewpoints as the dissenter is morally wrong and should be illegal |
Umm...it simply stated that kids are taught cooperation, conflict resolution, and the importance of not bullying and not cheating. In your own words, teaching this amounts to dissent? Dude, that's messed up.
James. |
the title was why dissent will survive and then talks about influencing children, it is terrible, you're right.
and iraqi soldiers have been waving the white flag and then firing on american soldiers on a number of occasions. if you were an american soldier and knew about these games being played by a few iraqis, it would make allowing them to surrender a lot harder
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03/24/2003 04:43:35 PM · #475 |
Originally posted by achiral:
actually this amounts to brainwashing of children, that's all. entering political viewpoints in the classroom is wrong. let the kids think for themselves. |
Cooperation and conflict resolution are not political viewpoints -- they are the very essence of the purpose of civilization.
I take it you are also against forcing youngsters to recite "the Pledge..." EVERY DAY.
Ooh...sorry...we went through the whole pledge thing a while ago...I'll see if I can link to that thread so we all needn't repeat ourselves over and over and...
Message edited by author 2003-03-24 16:45:32. |
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