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12/01/2004 04:42:38 PM · #1 |
I had posted this idea in another thread about a week ago but wanted to get some fresh response on the idea. Lets face it DPChallenge members and registered users are growing and DPChallenge must grow with the increase of users and entries. I have analyzed this for about two weeks now and have not found any major flaws but would like others opinions and ideas. Below I will try to break down what I feel would be a great way for DPC to revise challenges into levels of achievement. I know if D&L agreed, it would be a process that would be implemented over a course of time.
Have 5 challenges a week BUT the most anyone can enter is 2 challenges during the week base on the rules set below. The following are the five different challenges.
1. Beginners Level Challenge
2. Novice Level Challenge
3. Amateur Level Challenge
4. Members Challenge
5. Advanced Level Challenge
Beginners Level Challenge:
1. Basic Editing Rules
2. Cannot have participated in more than 5 challenges
3. This challenge is for beginners only [registered users or members]
4. Participants are not allowed to vote on this challenge
I believe that DPC is the best photography learning website on the net today. With that said why donât we make it an even better learning site at the same time attracting more users. I believe this can be achieved by having a beginners challenge. The beginnerâs challenge is only open to new users that have participated in < 5 challenges. This would be a learning experience for them for several reasons. 1] The only users able to vote would be the ones that are not at the beginners level. 2] DPC would highly recommend that all users that vote comment on each entry, since there would not be as many each week as seen in other challenges, offering constructive criticism or advice to help the new user make the best of his or her first 5 entries to grow and learn. 3] Once a beginner has completed his or her 5 entries then they would advance to amateur or novice depending upon there average score. Since there would be a limited number of entries in this challenge DPC would award only one ribbon per challenge. The ribbon can be of a different color or overlaid with the letter âBâ to identify it as a beginnerâs ribbon. Beginnerâs ribbons do not qualify as a ribbon to put them in the âAdvanced Level Challengeâ
Novice Level Challenge
1. Basic Editing rules
2. Must have participated in 5 or more challenges
3. Challenge is open to registered users or members with an average vote received < 5.000 with no ribbons [other than beginner ribbon] won
4. Participants and all users are allowed to vote
The âNovice Level Challengeâ is for users with an average vote received < 5.000. It will give them an extra incentive to get to the 5.000 level and be able to participate in the âAmateur levelâ before or at the same time being able to achieve a ribbon.
Amateur Challenge
1. Advanced editing rules
2. Must have participated in 5 or more challenges
3. Challenge is open to registered users or members with an average vote received > 5.000 with no ribbons [other than beginner ribbon] won
4. Participants and all users are allowed to vote
The âAmateur Level Challengeâ is for users that has achieved an average vote received >5.000 with no ribbons [other than beginner ribbon] won. It would give them opportunity to participate in a challenge with âadvanced editingâ rules at the same time still giving them the goal of achieving there first ribbon.
Members Challenge
1. Advance editing rules
2. Must have participated in more than 5 challenges
3. Challenge open to all members
4. Participants and Members are allowed to vote.
The memberâs challenge is exactly as it is today. You have to be a member to participate.
Advanced Level Challenge
1. Advanced editing rules
2. Must have participated in 5 or more challenges
3. Challenge is open to registered users or members with an average vote received > 5.000 and at least 1 ribbon.
4. Participants and Members are allowed to vote
Questions and Answers:
Q. Can I participate in more than two challenges at one time?
A. NO. The level challenge system is designed to give everyone a chance to enter a challenge on his or her level while trying to achieve the next level. Registered users will be able to participate in one challenge a week while Members will be able to participate in a two challenges per week. Beginners will only be able to participate in the beginners level challenge until they have five challenges under there belt.
Q. Why break down challenges like this?
A. DPChallenge has become one of the premier digital photography sites on the web today. By using a level system it will give users more that just a ribbon to strive for while participating in a challenge with other users with similar talent.
Q. Why a beginners challenge?
A. I have noticed a lot of users that have signed up for DPChallenge that has not submitted a photograph. Although you are not required to submit a photograph DPC would like to see everyone participate in the site. Some may not submit a photograph for fear of failure, quality, or a number of reasons. By having a beginners challenge it lets all new users submit there photograph with confidence that they will get comments from experienced DPC users that would try to help them [if they need help] improve on there photograph or techniques. DPC would encourage all users that vote in the beginners challenge to comment.
I like this system and believe it would attract more users to DPChallenge and more users mean more members. I think this could be one way for DPChallenge to grow into the âgoogleâ of photography. OH, and by the way it would divide those high number of submissions in one challenge over five challenges.
Message edited by author 2004-12-01 16:55:08.
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12/01/2004 04:46:56 PM · #2 |
Breaking up into levels met with extreme resistance when I posted a similar idea a long time ago.
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12/01/2004 04:49:19 PM · #3 |
I like the ideas, they're good. Just a couple points...
Novice and amateur titles should be swapped, the ideas are fine, but novice means slightly below amateur level.
And secondly, I still think editing rules should be challenge specific, as advanced editing does not make a good photo really. There's no reason to have all higher challenges with advanced editing as many people edit very little, as is the spirit of photography. |
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12/01/2004 04:52:31 PM · #4 |
two things come to mind.
1) i think the paid members should have more options than the registered users - seems to be almost equal here.
2) how to go about breaking the current user base into these groups, and will that go over well?
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12/01/2004 04:54:41 PM · #5 |
One very minor point I see right off would be to change the Novice level to a score >4.999, to avoid overlap.
Other than that I like the concept, the way this site has grown since just September, something has got to be done. I am not sure it will be possible to judge an open contest by this time next year.
SDW65, maybe, since you are pretty smoky with math, you can do a growth extrapolation to estimate the number of entries in a given time.
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12/01/2004 04:55:36 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Rankles:
I like the ideas, they're good. Just a couple points...
Novice and amateur titles should be swapped, the ideas are fine, but novice means slightly below amateur level.
And secondly, I still think editing rules should be challenge specific, as advanced editing does not make a good photo really. There's no reason to have all higher challenges with advanced editing as many people edit very little, as is the spirit of photography. |
Point taken, thank you! changed
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12/01/2004 05:00:56 PM · #7 |
With this format, I could only participate in two challenges, Member and Advanced. And I am, in no way shape or form, an advanced photographer. My one ribbon was pure circumstance: I was in the right place at the right time for that particular challenge. And my average score is just above 5 because of that photo.
Mark
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12/01/2004 05:02:14 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by soup:
two things come to mind.
1) i think the paid members should have more options than the registered users - seems to be almost equal here.
2) how to go about breaking the current user base into these groups, and will that go over well? |
1. Registered users can only participate in one challenge per week while members can participate in two.
2. If you have a <5.000 average and no ribbon and a member you can participate in the members challenge and the novice level challenge.
3. If you have a >5.000 average and no ribbon and a member you can participate in the members challenge and the amateur level challenge.
4. if you have a >5.000 average and a ribbon you can participate in the members challenge and the advanced level challenge.
5. If you have less than 5 submissions then you can enter the beginnerâs challenge.
6. if you are a registered user then you can participate in the level that you fall under depending on your average vote received and if your have won a ribbon.
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12/01/2004 05:07:48 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Mark of SRQ:
With this format, I could only participate in two challenges, Member and Advanced. And I am, in no way shape or form, an advanced photographer. My one ribbon was pure circumstance: I was in the right place at the right time for that particular challenge. And my average score is just above 5 because of that photo.
Mark |
Mark, do not sale your self short. Your winning ribbon was not just by accident you had the eye to see it and new to press the shutter. You could still achieve more ribbons in the members challenge or have a gleaming smile when you obtain a ribbon in the âAdvanced level challengeâ. You take great pictures!
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12/01/2004 05:11:55 PM · #10 |
There are a few problems in the details. Every week, there would be three ribbons handed out to Novices, who may still have averages below 5. A registered user with 1 or more Novice ribbons and a below-5 average would appear to be in limbo. Similarly, some people jump right in with a ribbon or two in their first few challenges. These people would be ranked below Novice, yet it also seems to me that you could jump straight from Novice to Advanced with a single lucky shot.
Breaking up the challenge might be a good idea in theory, but number of challenges entered has little to do with skill level, and a single ribbon does not suddenly make you a better photographer. Lastly, going from 2 "challenge levels" to 5 seems excessive and potentially confusing. |
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12/01/2004 05:12:01 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Breaking up into levels met with extreme resistance when I posted a similar idea a long time ago. |
I would imagine it did. But now DPChallenge is a different place with many more users and members. I think its time to take it to a different level. Hopefully this time users will see we [may] need a change to keep up with growth. If not in this way, a way that will keep us growing.
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12/01/2004 05:12:36 PM · #12 |
I appreciate the thought that went into this, but I have to admit that I'm perfectly happy with the way things are now... it's simple and to the point.
With the exception of a couple recent anomolies with the Macro & B&W challenges, there really haven't been huge and unreasonable numbers of photos in challenges, and the numbers of submissions haven't been jumping in leaps and bounds over the course of time.
I just don't see the sense in adding so much criteria in to who can enter what... it's much more fun for me to have one big pool of photos of all different skill levels. I learn just as much from those at the lower end as I do from the ribbons... |
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12/01/2004 05:18:08 PM · #13 |
| The basic idea seems good. However, I see a bit of a problem with the >5 overall average needed for the upper level challenges. Because of the fact that a few low scores can make it darned near impossible to raise the overall average much, perhaps that could be revised to >5 for the last "x" entries, or some sort of weighting system so that increasing quality (or average score) could be taken into account and rewarded. Without that sort of mechanism, it seems that one could be permanently mired in the "lower level" challenges. |
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12/01/2004 05:22:50 PM · #14 |
I will try to respond to everyoneâs suggestions, concerns, complaints or doubts. It may take a while, please be patient. I thank everyone for reading and commenting against or for the suggestion. Thatâs what I love about this site.
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12/01/2004 05:27:43 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by jemison:
The basic idea seems good. However, I see a bit of a problem with the >5 overall average needed for the upper level challenges. Because of the fact that a few low scores can make it darned near impossible to raise the overall average much |
I proposed an elegant solution to this problem previously. See this thread for an explanation of the concept. |
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12/01/2004 05:44:22 PM · #16 |
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Message edited by author 2004-12-01 17:46:03. |
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12/01/2004 05:49:26 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by alansfreed:
I appreciate the thought that went into this, but I have to admit that I'm perfectly happy with the way things are now... it's simple and to the point.
With the exception of a couple recent anomolies with the Macro & B&W challenges, there really haven't been huge and unreasonable numbers of photos in challenges, and the numbers of submissions haven't been jumping in leaps and bounds over the course of time.
I just don't see the sense in adding so much criteria in to who can enter what... it's much more fun for me to have one big pool of photos of all different skill levels. I learn just as much from those at the lower end as I do from the ribbons... |
I agree. It all sounds kinda complex and I like simplicity. No offense. It seems this was pretty well thought out.
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12/01/2004 07:20:43 PM · #18 |
Scott, it was a long post but worth reading ... sorry for the long reply but I have given this some thought.
I like the general ideas presented here and applaud the thought that went into it. Subsequent posts seem to be sensible and some move the ball forward. I'd like to come at it from the perspective.
What Beginners need is a safe, easy, and genuinely helpful way to get their feet wet; to get started submitting photos; and to rapidly climb the initial learning curve. What will help them greatly is comments from gifted photographers with a gentle touch. If you can "encourage" those with ribbons to comment on Beginners' photos, that would be a great add. Or maybe, being a member of Critique Club means you have to comment on all Beginners' photos ... there won't be that many. Or possibly, only members can vote on Beginners's photos and possibly a comment is required for the vote to be registered. Just ideas to consider to really push the comment angle.
The key difference between Novice and Amateur is their average score. The issue I'd like to highlight is that the average includes every photo and the photographers will be paying a price for a long time for some early low scores. That will slow their migration to Amateur. I would like to see us encourage Novices to move up to Amateurs as quickly as they deserve it. What if the "average" for this purpose only was the average of the last 10 challenges. That way the average would count more recent experience more highly and reward improvement sooner.
Challenge themes will be ... a challenge. Coming up with a couple a week is probably hard. Coming up with 5 a week will be harder. Suggest Beginner challenges are all Revisited challenges that teach some aspect of photography ... e.g. B&W, Macro, Implied Lines, Backlighting, Night Shot, Framing, Multiple Light Sources, Unusual Viewpoint, Centered, Motion Blur ... well you get the idea. They could be rotated and reused.
Lastly, your post is well thought out from the perspective of the photographer. It might help to spend some focused time thinking about it from the perspective of the voter and the voter behavior this scheme would encourage.
Just my thoughts. Happy to carry on via PM if you want.
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12/01/2004 07:21:32 PM · #19 |
Where's the Math Guy when you need him?
This site, like many community site that have grown up on the net over the years, is basically an Emergent System: it has it's rules, and administrators, but basically it is self-regulating. It would be very very foolish, I think, to mess with the fundamental guidelines of that system.
Here is one possible future for the site: it continues to grow in popularity. Every few challenges a record number of entries is achieved. At some point along that line, the size of challenge becomes unmanageable ... there has to be a point at which even the most committed members cannot vote on all images. We are already at the point where commenting on everything in the bigger challenges is nearly impossible. At that point the site becomes less fun, less engaging, and people start leaving in greater numbers than they are arriving. Numbers of submissions to challenges begin to drop, and ultimately the equilibrium point is reached again. Arguably, this process has actually happened a couple of times in the site's history.
There are of course other possibilities; I just think that's the most likely future scenario. I don't imagine that the overload point will be much fun, but it is almost definitely inevitable, whatever we do to alter challenges, divide the members up, and so on.
These things are almost organic in their progressions. This place has good roots, a good present (and still changing, still cycling). I don't see any real need to be fearful of the future.
E |
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12/01/2004 07:24:40 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by e301:
Where's the Math Guy when you need him? |
51 seconds before you hit Post. LOL
Message edited by author 2004-12-01 19:26:42. |
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12/01/2004 07:35:04 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
What Beginners need is a safe, easy, and genuinely helpful way to get their feet wet; to get started submitting photos; and to rapidly climb the initial learning curve. What will help them greatly is comments from gifted photographers with a gentle touch. If you can "encourage" those with ribbons to comment on Beginners' photos, that would be a great add. Or maybe, being a member of Critique Club means you have to comment on all Beginners' photos ... there won't be that many. Or possibly, only members can vote on Beginners's photos and possibly a comment is required for the vote to be registered. Just ideas to consider to really push the comment angle. |
It sounds like everyone has to start in the beginners group though until they have 4-5 challenges under their belt. I'm not sure that's right. Not everyone needs to 'get their feet wet'. Just because someone is new to DPC doesn't mean they are a beginner in photography or that they have never entered a challenge before. Maybe I read the initial post wrong...
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12/01/2004 07:50:35 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by ButterflySis:
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
What Beginners need is a safe, easy, and genuinely helpful way to get their feet wet; to get started submitting photos; and to rapidly climb the initial learning curve. What will help them greatly is comments from gifted photographers with a gentle touch. If you can "encourage" those with ribbons to comment on Beginners' photos, that would be a great add. Or maybe, being a member of Critique Club means you have to comment on all Beginners' photos ... there won't be that many. Or possibly, only members can vote on Beginners's photos and possibly a comment is required for the vote to be registered. Just ideas to consider to really push the comment angle. |
It sounds like everyone has to start in the beginners group though until they have 4-5 challenges under their belt. I'm not sure that's right. Not everyone needs to 'get their feet wet'. Just because someone is new to DPC doesn't mean they are a beginner in photography or that they have never entered a challenge before. Maybe I read the initial post wrong... |
Point taken and I agree with you. Still even for an experienced photographer, there is a lot to learn about the site, about editing for the right file size, about EXIF data, site editing rules , ... and so on. This gives the "beginner" a chance to climb this learning curve ... even if they are an experienced photographer. |
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12/01/2004 08:09:46 PM · #23 |
I'm not a fan of segregating everyone based on how popular their photos are with the voters. I have a nice average of 5.5, but I'm no where near the photographer that a lot of people with lower averages then me are. Average score means little.
Plus, with all those challenges going on, who is going to do all that voting? I could see a lot of people using their limited time to vote on the more advanced challenges while the amature/novice challenges get less votes and comments.
If the challenges get too big, shorten the submital time or make the challenge topics more specific (Macro without bugs and flowers would be a good example).
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12/01/2004 08:39:20 PM · #24 |
There have been quite a few elaborate "proposals" concerning the structure of challenges as well as some other features of the site, such as voting/commenting. They all sound well and nice, and theoretically they all have merit. However, I don't remember any of them being discussed from the point of feasibility, i.e. who's going to implement these schemes when, how, at what cost and for what benefit?
What is proposed here is not so simple; it might require major modification in database tier, serious programming work in the middle tier and complete overhaul of presentation tier. As far as I know, all the programming, management and maintenance of the site are taken care of by Drew and Langdon, who have "real lives" and jobs. Keeping a site this size (plus DPCPrints) running smoothly on a regular daily basis is quite some work, and I think that D&L have their hands full already. So, assuming that D&L even feel the need to restructure the site in one way or another, can they allocate time and resources for it? If not, can they afford to hire somebody to do it? How much will it cost (and I'm not talking only about monetary cost)? How long will it take to complete the work? etc. etc.
Long story short, unless the question of feasibility is taken into consideration and some viable answers/suggestions to this question are offered, even the best ideas are, unfortunately, quite useless and waste of time and grey cells, in my humble opinion.
Besides, just as e301 pointed out, if there's limited supply and excess demand, then the demand will naturally go down up to a point where supply and demand are balanced again. |
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12/01/2004 09:36:56 PM · #25 |
| Creating levels like this seems like overcomplicating the system. I think the invitational challenges do a good job of offering occasional single level competitions. The multi ribbon ones are like an advanced level and the recent no ribbon one was good for novices. The invitational challenge system could similarly be used to create challenges for people with a specific average vote. I like the idea of certain challenges being limited to people of a certain skill level, but for regular challenges, I enjoy having everyone on the same playing field. I'd be psyched to see a different invitational challenge every week along with the regular members and open challenges. It's fun seeing what a certain group of people can do, whether or not you yourself qualify for that challenge. |
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