Inconsistant voting, please explain.

12/02/2004 09:51:34 AM · #51

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

The explanations for the ones and twos is a subject which has been brought up ad infinum. Some people defend it and some chastise it. The reasons run from punative to artistically repellent efforts and the image in question could be first rate. The truth is that voting is power and while some accept it as a dutiful responsibility to enhance the efforts of others, another faction takes advantage of the power to express their bias. This is what we live with. Look at some of the ribbon winners and you will find these trollers everywhere.
You must also understand that there is a movement to end religion in any form, not only from the political arena but anywhere where people come together. These people want the supreme power transfered to the state. The state is the god and let there be no gods before it.There is also antipathy to political statements, though some members have managed to display such images. It then follows that religion and politics do not do well.

So some 1's and 2's come from people in the competition who feel that clobbing a good image helps their chances. (Not really, especially, when the votes approach 300.) Others do it because of a strong emphathic love hate syndrome inherent in their personality. Then you have the anti-religion block and then the anti-politic block. It all seems to balance itself. Like I said, voting is power and you also have the power freaks. At the end not many images get penalized, depending on the current collective group.

Outside of your image another one with the bible finished much higher. So that is two images with religion content that have fared good. Again, DPC is not perfect, but regardless, a good image makes it and the very few that suffer do so but not on a regular basis.

While there are many that defend their trolling, their arguments are not very effective becaise it is more self indulgence than helping out your fellow photographer. Instead of giving out a 1 or 2, why not give a 4 and explain hoe the image can be improved. No matter how you phrase it, a 1 is a crippling vote that creates havoc with a score. They know the havoc they cause as they sling the arrow.

and perhaps some people thought it wasn't any good ? I know, I know, why go looking for simple answers when there are more interesting conspiracies to chase, but sometimes, just occasionally the truth is the most obvious answer.

12/02/2004 09:58:57 AM · #52

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
The explanations for the ones and twos is a subject which has been brought up ad infinum. Some people defend it and some chastise it. The reasons run from punative to artistically repellent efforts and the image in question could be first rate. The truth is that voting is power and while some accept it as a dutiful responsibility to enhance the efforts of others, another faction takes advantage of the power to express their bias. This is what we live with. Look at some of the ribbon winners and you will find these trollers everywhere.
You must also understand that there is a movement to end religion in any form, not only from the political arena but anywhere where people come together. These people want the supreme power transfered to the state. The state is the god and let there be no gods before it.There is also antipathy to political statements, though some members have managed to display such images. It then follows that religion and politics do not do well.

So some 1's and 2's come from people in the competition who feel that clobbing a good image helps their chances. (Not really, especially, when the votes approach 300.) Others do it because of a strong emphathic love hate syndrome inherent in their personality. Then you have the anti-religion block and then the anti-politic block. It all seems to balance itself. Like I said, voting is power and you also have the power freaks. At the end not many images get penalized, depending on the current collective group.

Outside of your image another one with the bible finished much higher. So that is two images with religion content that have fared good. Again, DPC is not perfect, but regardless, a good image makes it and the very few that suffer do so but not on a regular basis.

While there are many that defend their trolling, their arguments are not very effective becaise it is more self indulgence than helping out your fellow photographer. Instead of giving out a 1 or 2, why not give a 4 and explain hoe the image can be improved. No matter how you phrase it, a 1 is a crippling vote that creates havoc with a score. They know the havoc they cause as they sling the arrow.

and perhaps some people thought it wasn't any good ? I know, I know, why go looking for simple answers when there are more interesting conspiracies to chase, but sometimes, just occasionally the truth is the most obvious answer.

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I know, I know....why even address the above quote: My ultimate point is that if an image stinks, why not offer advise to help the photographer rather then trolling. While there are many contending issues, the final object should be to help each other evolve in this field. Please show me the argument against this.

12/02/2004 10:10:42 AM · #53

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

I know, I know....why even address the above quote: My ultimate point is that if an image stinks, why not offer advise to help the photographer rather then trolling. While there are many contending issues, the final object should be to help each other evolve in this field. Please show me the argument against this.

A vote of 'bad' is informative and helpful in a small way. There are a whole lot of images that to usefully help, require fairly involved discussion, which also presupposes a lot of understanding of the level of knowledge of the photographer, as well as their intent. We get none of that while voting. As a result it is my belief, and mostly backed up by the several thousand comments that I've gotten, that there isn't much useful to be said in an anonymous comment, beyond either the totally superficial or inappropriately pitched. All you usefully get are opinions of I like it or not - this is useful and equally well imparted by a high or a low score.

I get plenty of comments suggesting how to fix things I did intentionally or discussing flaws I was well aware of or actively seeking for example. These may be useful if I didn't know about them. In fact they probably would be. I could get very technical comments that I might not be ready to understand, wasting the commentors time, or very basic comments that waste both our times.

If we could read the details and understand what the photographer was planning on doing - then perhaps we could meaningfully comment. If we knew the photographer knows how to process an image correctly, we might not waste time discussing sharpening halos or interpolation issues. We know none of this. A vote of 4 and a fairly bland comment about the light quality is just lying to save hurting someone's feelings. A vote of one may actually have some honesty and value attached to it that a pat on the back doesn't.

The critique club at least gives an opportunity to meaningfully provide feedback other than popularity.

Bottom line: if the image stinks, why does giving it a mediocre vote help anyone ? If it stinks, vote accordingly low.

Second bottom line: I still find it rude when these threads come around accusing everyone who ever votes 1 or a 2 of being a self-serving troll. There are many bad images submitted here. Acknowledging that fact is not the same as being a troll.

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 10:18:11.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/02/2004 10:15:58 AM · #54

Not everyone (anyone?) is as driven to help others as you are, Dan. The site covers all ages and personalities. Some people only care about the challenge aspect and will unleash a 1 for anything that isn't exactly their interpretation, some can't articulate WHY they don't like an image, some people vote at the last minute and don't have time for comments, and others probably just click random scores to get to 20%. It's not a perfect world, but knowing that the ribbon winners often get ones and the worst shots often get tens should tell you enough to shrug and not let it get to you.

12/02/2004 10:26:24 AM · #55

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

I know, I know....why even address the above quote: My ultimate point is that if an image stinks, why not offer advise to help the photographer rather then trolling. While there are many contending issues, the final object should be to help each other evolve in this field. Please show me the argument against this.

A vote of 'bad' is informative and helpful in a small way. There are a whole lot of images that to usefully help, require fairly involved discussion, which also presupposes a lot of understanding of the level of knowledge of the photographer, as well as their intent. We get none of that while voting. As a result it is my belief, and mostly backed up by the several thousand comments that I've gotten, that there isn't much useful to be said in an anonymous comment, beyond either the totally superficial or inappropriately pitched. All you usefully get are opinions of I like it or not - this is useful and equally well imparted by a high or a low score.

I get plenty of comments suggesting how to fix things I did intentionally or discussing flaws I was well aware of or actively seeking for example. These may be useful if I didn't know about them. In fact they probably would be. I could get very technical comments that I might not be ready to understand, wasting the commentors time, or very basic comments that waste both our times.

If we could read the details and understand what the photographer was planning on doing - then perhaps we could meaningfully comment. If we knew the photographer knows how to process an image correctly, we might not waste time discussing sharpening halos or interpolation issues. We know none of this. A vote of 4 and a fairly bland comment about the light quality is just lying to save hurting someone's feelings. A vote of one may actually have some honesty and value attached to it that a pat on the back doesn't.

The critique club at least gives an opportunity to meaningfully provide feedback other than popularity.

Bottom line: if the image stinks, why does giving it a mediocre vote help anyone ? If it stinks, vote accordingly low.

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Again, you miss my point. I think that must of us are able to look at any image and surmize the skill level. If you are going to look at pictures from the quality in which you yourself deliver them, then you are not helping those trying to move up. What you are in effect saying is, look, your image stinks and I am not able to gauge your skill level to help you. Besides, what can I say since I do not really understand your intent.

I do not think that this is the attitude that can be glorified for helping. It is very easy to snob the beginner and simply castigate the bad image with a low vote, but I believe that the overall idea is to uplift and encourage the newcomer rather than to simply vote good/bad.

12/02/2004 10:39:54 AM · #56

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Again, you miss my point.

and again, you are missing mine.
There are plenty of examples of comments, usually the detailed ones, that are a waste of time for both the giver and reciever, based a lack of understanding of intent and knowledge

Also, given a bad picture (wihch is what we are talking about - bad pictures, in the eyes of the person voting and commenting) I don't believe you can give an actually meaningfully useful comment (and I mean useful in that it actually helps someone get better) without having a serious discussion (not proclimation) about whatever is wrong with the image.

A quick handful of things that to me, make for bad images that I score low on here.

Terrible camera technique
Bad post processing
Bland composition
Poor lighting
Uninteresting subject choice

For each, I could no doubt make a throw-away essentially useless comment that would sound helpful but wouldn't help anyone get better. Also for each, I could write many paragraphs on the topic that may or may not start to be useful, but would be much more appropriate and useful when pitched at a level that is aware of the skill and knowledge of the person the discussion (again that word) is with. Saying 'bad camera shake' or 'bland composition' or 'poor lighting' doesn't actually help anyone. Nor does 'use a tripod' 'use rule of thirds' or 'use better light' actually help anyone.

So I choose to use the alternative method of providing this information, which was put in place by the creators of the site. They suggest a scale for feedback on image quality - and on one end of it, it says 1-bad - so I use that. These various threads that try to cast anyone with the temerity to vote any picture as 'bad' as either trolls, worth just ignoring, or self-important, pompus asses, worth just ignoring, do a larger dis-service to the people who get 1s, than the people who vote 1s and dont' comment. If you try to convince everyone that a bad vote is obviously just someone acting out, rather than an honest opinion that their picture is bad, all you do is convince them to think they are already great - not a very helpful way to learn. I got enough low scores and bad comments on images that it forced me to learn how to improve. The comments didn't teach me anything that low scores didn't - the picture is bad, learn how to take better ones.

Instead, I mostly make detailed comments on images where I am aware of the understanding of the photographer, after voting is finished. And we obviously differ in our opinion on that - and to me, that's fine. But I don't go around calling you a troll for your opinion - it would be nice if you could respect mine too.

I've also started mentoring some people who enter photos here. With some long discussions, directed effort and detailed feedback I think that has helped and improved the quality of the pictures a whole lot more.

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 11:07:23.

12/02/2004 11:22:10 AM · #57

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Again, you miss my point.

and again, you are missing mine.
There are plenty of examples of comments, usually the detailed ones, that are a waste of time for both the giver and reciever, based a lack of understanding of intent and knowledge

Also, given a bad picture (wihch is what we are talking about - bad pictures, in the eyes of the person voting and commenting) I don't believe you can give an actually meaningfully useful comment (and I mean useful in that it actually helps someone get better) without having a serious discussion (not proclimation) about whatever is wrong with the image.

A quick handful of things that to me, make for bad images that I score low on here.

Terrible camera technique
Bad post processing
Bland composition
Poor lighting
Uninteresting subject choice

For each, I could no doubt make a throw-away essentially useless comment that would sound helpful but wouldn't help anyone get better. Also for each, I could write many paragraphs on the topic that may or may not start to be useful, but would be much more appropriate and useful when pitched at a level that is aware of the skill and knowledge of the person the discussion (again that word) is with. Saying 'bad camera shake' or 'bland composition' or 'poor lighting' doesn't actually help anyone. Nor does 'use a tripod' 'use rule of thirds' or 'use better light' actually help anyone.

So I choose to use the alternative method of providing this information, which was put in place by the creators of the site. They suggest a scale for feedback on image quality - and on one end of it, it says 1-bad - so I use that. These various threads that try to cast anyone with the temerity to vote any picture as 'bad' as either trolls, worth just ignoring, or self-important, pompus asses, worth just ignoring, do a larger dis-service to the people who get 1s, than the people who vote 1s and dont' comment. If you try to convince everyone that a bad vote is obviously just someone acting out, rather than an honest opinion that their picture is bad, all you do is convince them to think they are already great - not a very helpful way to learn.

Instead, I mostly make detailed comments on images where I am aware of the understanding of the photographer, after voting is finished.

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Look, I understand all the points you put forth and I believe they are rather academic. It is also understood that the grading system merely addresses the quality of the image in so far as the voter is concerned.
Aside from the numerical vote, the creators of the site also inserted the comment as another factor. If I understand you correctly, you favor the numerical message to the recipient because you are not so sure that you can be of any help. I contend that if we follow this reasoning, then why employ comments at all?

I am far from suggesting that one comment can turn a bad photographer into a good one, but I have received one liners by astute observers that pointed out a deficiency.

As you very well know, it all depends on the photographer and his desire to improve. These folks are mostly self-starters and all they need is a little direction. While the in depth comment and discussion is more helpful, a direct single comment can have great impact. It does not work for all, but nothing is that complete.

I am not addressing this from the point of solving all problems. I believe that the photographer has a duty and attitude to improve his craft but addressing just one weak aspect with a comment will help those seeking to improve.

Our difference is based on the way that we view the photographer. They can not all be helped, but those self-starters will benefit just a little more with the comment. I believe, after reading so many threads that an astute comment is welcome. We all know that ribbon winners have received the troll vote. My question is who are the all knowing masters that refuse to share their insights and state why the winning image deserves his one? When a 1 is given to a bad image, I still scratch my head as to what exactly is a 1, I think we may be of more service by at least pointing out one bad aspect of the image. But again, out approach differs.

12/02/2004 11:24:49 AM · #58

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

I believe, after reading so many threads that an astute comment is welcome.

They are welcome. I just don't believe they are useful in any meaningful sense.

12/02/2004 11:29:06 AM · #59

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
I believe, after reading so many threads that an astute comment is welcome.

They are welcome. I just don't believe they are useful in any meaningful sense.

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I think that if you were to run an opinion poll, the opposite will be the case. I think you are making this blanket statement without full consideration.

12/02/2004 11:33:07 AM · #60

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
I believe, after reading so many threads that an astute comment is welcome.

They are welcome. I just don't believe they are useful in any meaningful sense.

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I think that if you were to run an opinion poll, the opposite will be the case. I think you are making this blanket statement without full consideration.

No, I'm just expressing my opinion and it comes from about 2 years of consideration of the comments I've gotten while starting from scratch.

They seem helpful at the time. All they actaully do usefully is force you to go and learn somewhere else. A bad score has the same effect.

There is a oft-repeated myth that dpchallenge is a great place to learn.
It is - but not because of the feedback you get. The challenges are a great motivating factor if you want to use them to learn. Providing feedback to others can be a great way to force you to look carefully at images and learn - passively waiting on people to provide you great insights on your photos doesn't actually teach anything.

To learn you have to be involved. You have to look at the picutres yourself. You need to learn to see the faults yourself - before clicking the shutter, not weeks later when someone tells you. DPC gives a huge opportunity to learn - but it isn't a passive, one line comment sort of learning. And again - obviously this is all my opinion, given that it is in a post I've writen, based on my experience going from picking a camera up for the first time a couple of years ago and starting at DPC about 2 months later. But it is also the reason I don't see any value in one or two line comments on terrible (again, in my opinion, as it doesn't appear to be obvious) pictures. There is a whole lot more that has to be done to improve those sorts of pictures than say 'use a tripod' or 'wait until the light gets better' Fundamentals need to be understood, investigated, learned.

Get a book, take a course, practice, actually look at the pictures, only enter your best work. Really look at what you are submitting. These are the sorts of meaningful comments that would actually be helpful. I think you can waste a lot of time that could be more usefully spent, by making superficial comments that don't actually help the person making, or getting, the comment. It might make both feel good, but they don't actually advance anything.

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 11:37:32.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

12/02/2004 11:37:07 AM · #61

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

An opinion poll may also present a gross rendition of a day-glo elk on velvet as an enviable masterpiece.

muckpond

Nikon D200

12/02/2004 11:42:35 AM · #62

mmmmmmmm....day-glo velvet..... *droooooooooooooool*

12/02/2004 11:45:06 AM · #63

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
I believe, after reading so many threads that an astute comment is welcome.

They are welcome. I just don't believe they are useful in any meaningful sense.

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I think that if you were to run an opinion poll, the opposite will be the case. I think you are making this blanket statement without full consideration.

No, I'm just expressing my opinion and it comes from about 2 years of consideration of the comments I've gotten while starting from scratch.

They seem helpful at the time. All they actaully do usefully is force you to go and learn somewhere else. A bad score has the same effect.

There is a oft-repeated myth that dpchallenge is a great place to learn.
It is - but not because of the feedback you get. The challenges are a great motivating factor if you want to use them to learn. Providing feedback to others can be a great way to force you to look carefully at images and learn - passively waiting on people to provide you great insights on your photos doesn't actually teach anything.

To learn you have to be involved. You have to look at the picutres yourself. You need to learn to see the faults yourself - before clicking the shutter, not weeks later when someone tells you. DPC gives a huge opportunity to learn - but it isn't a passive, one line comment sort of learning.

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Gordon, with all due respect, we are now comapaing apples and oranges. I have expressed your sentiments elsewhere: they are academic and understood by most of us. We are not that dense.

The point, from my point of view, is that if you offer say 100 comments and 5 of those are truly helpful, then the comment is useful and helpful. Find someone that will refute that. We all agree that the numerical has its value. It appears that your concern is the mathematics involved, that is, how many comments really helped me out of all the comments I received and how many will I have to give to have some mean something to the recipient. Again, a philosophical difference and we will just leave it at that.

12/02/2004 11:48:48 AM · #64

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Gordon, with all due respect, we are now comapaing apples and oranges. I have expressed your sentiments elsewhere: they are academic and understood by most of us. We are not that dense.

The point, from my point of view, is that if you offer say 100 comments and 5 of those are truly helpful, then the comment is useful and helpful. Find someone that will refute that. We all agree that the numerical has its value. It appears that your concern is the mathematics involved, that is, how many comments really helped me out of all the comments I received and how many will I have to give to have some mean something to the recipient. Again, a philosophical difference and we will just leave it at that.

No - I'm saying something more fundamental. You might think of it as academic and want to dismiss it and thats fine. I don't believe you get helpful comments here. At all. Learning in this art comes from within. This is most evident on the worst images, which is what we are talking about here (the '1's)

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 11:49:51.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

12/02/2004 12:06:14 PM · #65

Originally posted by Gordon:

... I don't believe you get helpful comments here. At all. Learning in this art comes from within. This is most evident on the worst images, which is what we are talking about here (the '1's)

With exceptions, perhaps... I have, indeed, received useful comments, and, pardon my confidence, believe that I've left a few of these too. The useful comments I received have, on rare occasion, stimulated an interchange of ideas, experiences and/or debates, without which I would be poorer.

I have valued this, and, because of it, attempted to return such grace by doing the same.

To qualify the above, the only time I leave a comment on an image I rated 1 is when I believe that this comment may benefit those who have to endure it. Other than that, I'd rather invest my effort in images I can effectively relate to.

12/02/2004 12:07:45 PM · #66

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Gordon, with all due respect, we are now comapaing apples and oranges. I have expressed your sentiments elsewhere: they are academic and understood by most of us. We are not that dense.

The point, from my point of view, is that if you offer say 100 comments and 5 of those are truly helpful, then the comment is useful and helpful. Find someone that will refute that. We all agree that the numerical has its value. It appears that your concern is the mathematics involved, that is, how many comments really helped me out of all the comments I received and how many will I have to give to have some mean something to the recipient. Again, a philosophical difference and we will just leave it at that.

No - I'm saying something more fundamental. You might think of it as academic and want to dismiss it and thats fine. I don't believe you get helpful comments here. At all. Learning in this art comes from within. This is most evident on the worst images, which is what we are talking about here (the '1's)

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Again you miss the point. We are not that dense. We have already covered the basics of learning. Your fudemental arises to the academic. We are not discussing the age old formulas of education. We are talking about the comment as a reaction to the efforts of someone else. The comment to help steer, validate or deny the right path.

While each individual must apply himself, guidance is also considered a vital part. Ask the apprentice.

Not everybody lays golden eggs and expect their neighbors to do so. And not every master is arrogant with the less talented.

12/02/2004 12:15:27 PM · #67

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

We are talking about the comment as a reaction to the efforts of someone else. The comment to help steer, validate or deny the right path.

and '1 - bad' is just as useful - that is the essence of my point. There isn't any more useful information in a long comment - just more words.

12/02/2004 12:17:18 PM · #68

Originally posted by zeuszen:

The useful comments I received have, on rare occasion, stimulated an interchange of ideas, experiences and/or debates, without which I would be poorer.

Absolutely - the more involved discussions and debate are hugely valuable and educational. Were many of those on images you'd vote a 1 upon - which is what this discussion is centered around ?

Discussion on and about images is greatly useful. Throwaway anonymous (from the perspective of the image creator) comments and platitudes are not.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/02/2004 12:21:06 PM · #69

Originally posted by Gordon:

I don't believe you get helpful comments here.

What you don't find helpful, others might gain a world of insight from. I understand your point that knowing the author's background and intentions allows a more worthwhile critique, but there is much to be learned from even a few words of voting insight. Even a simple "I don't like it," while non-specific, suggests the need to improve subject choice or technique. "Doesn't meet the challenge- 1" might prompt me to consider how well I'm communicating my intention. A photographer genuinely struggling to improve can find direction in nearly any comment, while even the most considered critique is wasted on those who don't value the opinions of others. Point being- ANY comment is better than NO comment, even for a photo with no hope of salvation.

12/02/2004 12:22:22 PM · #70

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Gordon:
I don't believe you get helpful comments here.

What you don't find helpful, others might gain a world of insight from. I understand your point that knowing the author's background and intentions allows a more worthwhile critique, but there is much to be learned from even a few words of voting insight. Even a simple "I don't like it," while non-specific, suggests the need to improve subject choice or technique. "Doesn't meet the challenge- 1" might prompt me to consider how well I'm communicating my intention. A photographer genuinely struggling to improve can find direction in nearly any comment, while even the most considered critique is wasted on those who don't value the opinions of others. Point being- ANY comment is better than NO comment, even for a photo with no hope of salvation.

How 'doesn't meet the challenge - 1' or 'I don't like it - 1'
communicate anything more useful than just voting 1 ?

12/02/2004 12:24:16 PM · #71

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
We are talking about the comment as a reaction to the efforts of someone else. The comment to help steer, validate or deny the right path.

and '1 - bad' is just as useful - that is the essence of my point. There isn't any more useful information in a long comment - just more words.

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Ha, ha. Got it. A one is superior than the spoken word because the words are just words that signify nothing. Why not just poke each other in the Tarzan style, you good, you bad.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

12/02/2004 12:26:20 PM · #72

Originally posted by Gordon:

...involved discussions and debate are hugely valuable and educational. Were many of those on images you'd vote a 1 upon - which is what this discussion is centered around ?...

None were on or from images I voted 1. I wanted to stress just this.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/02/2004 12:32:15 PM · #73

Originally posted by Gordon:

How 'doesn't meet the challenge - 1' or 'I don't like it - 1' communicate anything more useful than just voting 1 ?

"Doesn't meet the challenge" might mean that the subject was GOOD, but inappropriate for this challenge. The other suggests that the subject or technique was bad, but may have met the challenge. With a vote only, there is no guidance at all.