It just goes to show ... can't predict the voters

Tamron SP AF 17-35mm f/2.8-4 Di LD Aspherical IF for Nikon

11/29/2004 01:32:31 AM · #1

For the Time Passing challenge, I expected about a 5.0 and that's about what I got, 4.973. This one wasn't meant to be beautiful or well composed. It was a fun experiment to use a multi-strobe flash to try to capture the "passing of time" within a still frame. Fun? Yes. A great photo... nah... just fun.

For the B&W Challenge, I submitted a high-key photo (which some voters apparently didn't get). I fully expected this one to be well above 5.0 yet this one scored the LOWEST of the three at 4.867. This is the one I just don't get. It is by no means, "mediocre", "middle of the road" or "average". It certainly seems above a 5.0 status, yet it scored lower than my other two "average" photos.

I'm not really complaining ... just noting that I believe the voters aren't consistent in how they vote.

dartompkins

Nikon D70s

11/29/2004 01:55:51 AM · #2

I gave the last one an 8. Go figure?

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

11/29/2004 02:05:34 AM · #3

Originally posted by dartompkins:

I gave the last one an 8. Go figure?

Thanks Darlene! :-) I know some people "got" the high-key and even left comments. Very much appreciated!

I wonder if any of the low voters might share their thoughts? I'd be interested in learning what they liked or disliked or what they thought could improve the photo.

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

11/29/2004 02:07:35 AM · #4

I struggle with the same thing all the time.
Some of us just have a way of tapping in to what the masses want, and some of us don't.. and some of us *could*, but don't try.. blah blah blah :)

I really like your B&W II shot. I would have scored it high myself, but didn't get to it (I only voted on 35% or something)

11/29/2004 02:21:38 AM · #5

How about a comparative analysis? I believe this one scored too low as well (but at least it managed to get a 5.8, compared to my 4.8):

So compare the two... what (in your opinion) raises this one above average versus what leaves mine below average?

I do like the other one and scored it a 7. I would have given an 8 with a little more of the face showing ... it starts to show the nose but then cuts it off. I think by placing the eyes at the top 3rd, with the nose visible, the composition would have improved. Anyway, those are my thoughts on that one.

On my own picture... I think a little more detail in the eyebrows would have made it better. And perhaps a little less sharpness in his hair.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/29/2004 02:24:09 AM · #6

Originally posted by Artyste:

I would have scored it high myself, but didn't get to it (I only voted on 35% or something)

I know what you mean! I *really* tried hard to vote on that one... but with so many entries, and such a slow connection at home, I only made it through about 55% of the entries.

KiwiChris

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

11/29/2004 03:38:14 AM · #7

Hi-ho,

I didn't manage to get through much of the voting on B&W, so I didn't see either of the shots in your comparison...

For what it's worth, I would have voted the womans face higher than your shot.

I prefer the 'high key' look of the womans face to the 'blown out' look you've got with the PS work on the boys portrait.

I think you've lost a great deal of the tonal detail in the portrait, and what you're left is a little harsh.

I can sum it up by looking at the details of the eyes.. The womans eyes are quite captivating, although the catchlight shape is distracting, the pupils are small and the iris detail is intact. The eyes of your portrait are harsher, and lacking in defined details, with larger pupils enhancing the low level of detail.

I suspect in this case the enemy might be the 640px restriction, as your image probably has quite a bit of detail full-sized.

Both of them are good photos at the end of the day, but I prefer the more rich high key shot..

As always, just my 2c worth..

Cheers, Chris H.

GinaRothfels

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

11/29/2004 03:54:41 AM · #8

Originally posted by dartompkins:

I gave the last one an 8. Go figure?

Me too!

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

11/29/2004 04:18:31 AM · #9

I really don't think it's the voters that are not consistent, rather your expectations are not consistent.

The 3 photographs you show here are totally different, so trying to judge consistency by them is pretty futile.

Your first, is a nice shot - with the border i would have given it a 3 or 4, without a border a 6 or 7 so 5.something seems pretty fair.

The 2rd whilst it's a good idea,and well executed it's not very attractive or has much lasting appeal so again the score IMO is good.

the 3rd is great as a graphical piece of work, but on a photography site, a few aspects have been lost due to the processing - which results in the score you achieved.

Bud

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Sigma 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM

11/29/2004 04:27:16 AM · #10

Originally posted by dwterry:

It's funny how the ratings work here, it doesn't seem consistent. Out of my last 3 challenges, one scored higher than expected, one scored right where I expected, and the other was way low (in my opinion).

For the Calendar challenge, I expected about a 5.0 and got a 5.306 (higher than expected). I fully expected low marks for the border, even though, for me, it forced me right into the picture.

For the Time Passing challenge, I expected about a 5.0 and that's about what I got, 4.973. This one wasn't meant to be beautiful or well composed. It was a fun experiment to use a multi-strobe flash to try to capture the "passing of time" within a still frame. Fun? Yes. A great photo... nah... just fun.

For the B&W Challenge, I submitted a high-key photo (which some voters apparently didn't get). I fully expected this one to be well above 5.0 yet this one scored the LOWEST of the three at 4.867. This is the one I just don't get. It is by no means, "mediocre", "middle of the road" or "average". It certainly seems above a 5.0 status, yet it scored lower than my other two "average" photos.

I'm not really complaining ... just noting that I believe the voters aren't consistent in how they vote.

The first photo, for Calendar is OK, middle of the pack. The big border was a draw back and the other thing for me in that challenge, is that it is just an average scene, I had difficulty imagining it on a calendar.

The other two, like you said, there is no figuring the voters sometime.

With the time flying, I might of tried to sharpen the girl reading the book and set her in a different position. Creative idea.

The B&W entry was excellent and I have no idea why some did not like it. It is a little different and sometimes that makes it hard for voters.

You are doing some good photos, just keep it up and eventually things will come around.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

11/29/2004 04:29:35 AM · #11

Originally posted by dwterry:

How about a comparative analysis? I believe this one scored too low as well (but at least it managed to get a 5.8, compared to my 4.8):

So compare the two... what (in your opinion) raises this one above average versus what leaves mine below average?

I do like the other one and scored it a 7. I would have given an 8 with a little more of the face showing ... it starts to show the nose but then cuts it off. I think by placing the eyes at the top 3rd, with the nose visible, the composition would have improved. Anyway, those are my thoughts on that one.

On my own picture... I think a little more detail in the eyebrows would have made it better. And perhaps a little less sharpness in his hair.

I think the key difference is the top one is 'high key' whereas yours seems 'overexposed'. Maybe tone down the contrast a little, the boy's hair and eyes seem more like a sketch than a photo purely due to harsh blacks and lack of detail.

SteveJ

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

11/29/2004 06:15:36 AM · #12

I voted both the B&W photos quite low, why?

Both have any feeling bleached out, they are like hairdressers poster pics...had both been more traditional B&W they would have been winners! The lack of contrast, combined with the cropping leaves me cold.

I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here, I am offering my reasons for voting lower then people seem to think they deserve. The reason the woman pic scored higher was the main point of focus was the eyes...they are lovely eyes.

Anyway, that's my reasons...okay, you can hit me now!

11/29/2004 06:18:47 AM · #13

Originally posted by ohmark:

I prefer the 'high key' look of the womans face to the 'blown out' look you've got with the PS work on the boys portrait.

I think you've lost a great deal of the tonal detail in the portrait, and what you're left is a little harsh.

I can sum it up by looking at the details of the eyes.. The womans eyes are quite captivating, although the catchlight shape is distracting, the pupils are small and the iris detail is intact. The eyes of your portrait are harsher, and lacking in defined details, with larger pupils enhancing the low level of detail.

Thanks Chris, that's the kind of feedback I was looking for.

For what it's worth, I have a hard time seeing the difference between what you're calling high-key in one and blown-out in the other. (down at the thumbnail size it seems true, but when I open up the pictures, I see just about the same level of detail in both pictures)

But I'll take your feedback and see what I can do better the next time around!

Thanks,
David

11/29/2004 06:19:50 AM · #14

Originally posted by jonpink:

the 3rd is great as a graphical piece of work, but on a photography site, a few aspects have been lost due to the processing - which results in the score you achieved.

Interesting thought there. Thanks for the feedback!

David

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

11/29/2004 06:23:10 AM · #15

Originally posted by jonpink:

As I mentioned to Chris... I have a hard time seeing any difference between the two (except at thumbnail size). Open both of them up and you see whites, grays and blacks.

But based on yours and Chris' feedback I'll give it another shot and see if I can improve the "high-key" aspect of the photo.

Thanks!
David

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

11/29/2004 06:50:19 AM · #16

Originally posted by dwterry:

Originally posted by jonpink:
I think the key difference is the top one is 'high key' whereas yours seems 'overexposed'. Maybe tone down the contrast a little, the boy's hair and eyes seem more like a sketch than a photo purely due to harsh blacks and lack of detail.

As I mentioned to Chris... I have a hard time seeing any difference between the two (except at thumbnail size). Open both of them up and you see whites, grays and blacks.

But based on yours and Chris' feedback I'll give it another shot and see if I can improve the "high-key" aspect of the photo.

Thanks!
David

One easy way is to look at details - on the woman image look at her hair and eyes compared to the boys. Looks a lot softer with a little more detail.

BigSmiles

Canon EOS-10D

11/29/2004 07:05:51 AM · #17

Here's a tip to help you out with a high key portrait. Your image should look high key before you even touch it in PS. High key is defined when you use a light haired/skinned/clothed subject on a light coloured background. Lighting for a high key portrait should be *fairly* flat, not completely flat (without dark or obvious shadows). You should still be able to see details in the skin, hair and eyes. While I get more of the high key impression from the picture of the woman, it still looks like someone blew out the highlights and called it high key.

Arcanist

Nikon D810

11/29/2004 07:36:29 AM · #18

Interesting.

The two high key posts I thought were both very well done. Yes the Devon post did seem more 'sketched' which in a way detracted from it's score compared to the eyes, but I don't really think that is why either of them fared so flatly in this challenge.

As I have been learning the hard way with the challenges, it seems that it is not only the title that forces many to consider the submission 'applicable to the challenge', but also the description.

>>> Challenge: Black & White II
Rules: Basic Editing (Jul 7, 2004)
Details: Reduce the world to a palette of grays, and focus on light, shade, line, texture and form.

When I reviewed the top results, I find that all of these elements are in some way represented. Time Passing was another example. Many shot static (as did I) representations of what we considered time passing, but they in fact were not blurred motion (true sense of time passing) and as such, we lost points for that. The top results went to compositions that in some way really embraced the idea of a scene that melded from past to present or future or like the hourglass, can't help but convey the movement of the sand.

More and more, I see that we all strive to be as artistic as we can be in the interpretation of a challenge, but in the final tally, it is the literal voting and judgement of the challenge parameters that really place the ribbons at the top.

Message edited by author 2004-11-29 07:37:52.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

11/29/2004 08:13:46 AM · #19

I basically agree with BigSmiles assessment.

There is a big difference between "high-key" photography and the "fashion blowout look", "shifting levels in Photoshop", "intentional overexposure", etc.

The 2 things that make a true high-key photograph, at least to me: 1) high-key photos retain detail even in the brightest parts of the photo (except for specular highlights, of course) and 2) high-key photos have the vast majority of the tones in the photograph above middle gray. Simple as that. (It is important to note that a high-key photograph does not have to be B&W!)

In your B&W II entry, there is almost no detail left in the face (especially around the nose, for example); it has a very graphical appearance. And it goes slightly beyond what I would consider the "fashion blow out" look (see the Cradle 2 The Grave DVD cover for an example of this "look").

Message edited by author 2004-11-29 08:16:17.

Prof_Fate

11/29/2004 10:56:34 AM · #20

I am not a fan of high key shots, but bairas shot i loved - i even gave it a 10. Your similar shot appears grainy to me and the hair has become non-photographic in appearance.

Your time shot i gave a 6. No great as you say, but you get extra point(s) for trying something different / technical achievement/ attempt.

I did not vote on the calendar challenge.

I have submitted a mediocre shot to low tech...i am expecting 4.5 to 5. For Lucky 7 i have what I think is one of my best shots...I am hoping (as always;) for ribbon, but high 5's would make me happy.

We'll see if my powers of prediction are any better than yours.