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11/02/2004 01:15:35 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I am repulsed by any religion that promotes violence. |
Which religion promotes violence? I don't believe any of them do. |
The Spanish Inquisition was pretty violent. To subjugate a people, deny the validity of their civilization, culture, and religion, and kill them if they refuse to changeand adopt the conqueror's paradigm seems violent to me; this seems to be the SOP of most missionary sects. |
Like I said, religion is being used as an excuse for violence. The religion itself does not promote violence. |
Is there a practical difference? It was the organizational structure which promoted violence. I would be happy for each person to practice their own religion independently. As soon as two or more people get together and create an organization to promote that religion you get trouble. |
I agree with you last statement however to me the religion and the organization that promotes the religion are two different things. It is the organization that is violent and not the religion.
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11/02/2004 01:19:06 AM · #77 |
| Responsibility seems to be taken away from the individual by religion. |
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11/02/2004 01:21:58 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Responsibility seems to be taken away from the individual by religion. |
Only because individuals let it.
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11/02/2004 01:26:43 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Responsibility seems to be taken away from the individual by religion. |
Only because individuals let it. |
And thats most of the problem; its human nature. |
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11/02/2004 01:30:56 AM · #80 |
I think it takes a lot for an individual to defy an institution such as religion when many important people in one's life and community promote it. Once can feel very much alone as a result. It also takes the ability to see beyond what one has been taught as a child concerning religion and spirituality which takes an open mind.
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Responsibility seems to be taken away from the individual by religion. |
Only because individuals let it. |
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11/02/2004 01:50:15 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I am repulsed by any religion that promotes violence. |
Which religion promotes violence? I don't believe any of them do. The radicals try and relate their actions to something in the Koran or the Torah(?) or the bible for that matter but it's not the religion that promotes violence it's the person's involved using religion as an excuse for violence. Big difference. |
From a "Christian" perspective and opinion;
ChristianTruth.org Maybe they are too radical. |
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11/02/2004 02:51:12 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
How is it that the Ten Commandments state: "Thou Shalt Not kill" but there seems to be so many Judeo/Christians who are so preoccupied with enemies in the name of their religion? Why can't they just leave other people to their own beliefs without having to change them? |
In reality, the fifth commandment is often misquoted as "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... A far more accurate translation is "Thou Shalt Not Murder". There is a subtle, but profound difference :)
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11/02/2004 03:04:33 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I am repulsed by any religion that promotes violence. |
Which religion promotes violence? I don't believe any of them do. |
The Spanish Inquisition was pretty violent. To subjugate a people, deny the validity of their civilization, culture, and religion, and kill them if they refuse to changeand adopt the conqueror's paradigm seems violent to me; this seems to be the SOP of most missionary sects. |
Hate to disagree... I believe the Catholic Church (of which I'm a devote member) has been guilty of atrocities in the past... However, in the name of historical accuracy, the Spanish Inquisition was far and away more motivated by politicians then the Church. Also, there is a fair amount of evidence that the violence was far less dramatic then modern accounts contend... The "Iron Maiden", often seen in depictions of the Inquisition were never found west of Germany... There is also evidence of prisoners in civilian prisons intentionally committing acts of heresy in an attempt to be transfered to the "comfort" of Inquisition prisons. The Church was not an innocent in the Inquisition, but it's guilt is largely overstated by Hollywood's depiction of that era.
The claims that the Church suppressed science is also false. The notion that the Church taught that the earth was flat is just plain wrong. It was made up in a novel written in the 18th century. Many early art works commissioned by the Church show the earth as being round and revolving around the sun. This was centuries before Christopher Columbus came along.
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 03:07:13.
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11/02/2004 03:11:50 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Responsibility seems to be taken away from the individual by religion. |
Same thing happens at ballgames... Religon is not the problem.
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11/02/2004 06:34:11 AM · #85 |
Until we can separate a religion from a group of people who promotes and practices it we won't be able to stop blaming an entire faith for the atrocities of one group promoting and practicing that faith.
Look what happened with Sept 11. All people of the muslim faith were tarred with the same brush (not by all but by many) instead of just those that were members of Al Qaeda.
edit: The Catholic Church is just like any other organization promoting a religion. It's just much bigger and more widespread than most. Just my opinion.
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 06:48:19.
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11/02/2004 09:31:55 AM · #86 |
It's interesting how quickly the conversation drifts towards the atrocities commited by "organized religion", and away from the person who made the bold claim that he was the Son of God.
Don't mix these up...Jesus was one of the first to stand up against the atrocities of the leaders of the Jewish temple. He was a devout Jew, but was horrified at what "organized religion" had done to his Father's house.
As for the atrocities commited in the name of Jesus (which were against everything he has taught us), don't let these overshadow the work of those who truly follow him. There are many, many, many great things which have happened as a result of his followers working to 'care for the orphans and widows' among other things...
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11/02/2004 09:49:46 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
It's interesting how quickly the conversation drifts towards the atrocities commited by "organized religion", and away from the person who made the bold claim that he was the Son of God.
Don't mix these up...Jesus was one of the first to stand up against the atrocities of the leaders of the Jewish temple. He was a devout Jew, but was horrified at what "organized religion" had done to his Father's house.
As for the atrocities commited in the name of Jesus (which were against everything he has taught us), don't let these overshadow the work of those who truly follow him. There are many, many, many great things which have happened as a result of his followers working to 'care for the orphans and widows' among other things... |
Very true. Although I do belive that Jesus existed, I just don't belive that he was the physical son of God (I do not belive in God/Allah/Whatever, btw), he probably just meant that in a philosophical way. ("We are all children of God, etc.."). Jesus basically told that we should be nice and kind to each other, just like many other spiritual leaders. Buddha, and Dalai-Lama (in any incarnation) teach the same. Is it consequence that all those very wise men teach the same thing? I think not.
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11/02/2004 10:15:53 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by jonr:
Jesus basically told that we should be nice and kind to each other, just like many other spiritual leaders. Buddha, and Dalai-Lama (in any incarnation) teach the same. Is it consequence that all those very wise men teach the same thing? I think not. |
Actually, he said things which were quite heretical if he wasn't God. He said we should drop everything to follow him, that he was the 'bread of life', that he was the only way that people could reconcile themselves with God, etc...not nice, fluffy stuff, especially in his jewish environment.
I understand those that say Jesus was a lunatic and led people astray more than those who say he was just a good teacher...
If he was lying about who he was and whether he would deliver on the promises he made, then he was an awful, heart-breaking, family-wrecking, divisive, coercive, manipulative megalomaniac.
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11/02/2004 10:40:16 AM · #89 |
| This forum thread is entitled: "RE: Christians." It's not about the principles and morals of Christianity, which are, at best, a human interpretation of a human construction, words. It seems to be about how humans use religion for purposes other than spirituality and the questionable activities resulting from those uses. |
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11/02/2004 10:47:43 AM · #90 |
thatcloudthere, well you got some good points there. Yes, he was definetaly a crazy person, but many intelligent people are. Maybe he was just some cultist?
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11/02/2004 11:14:34 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by jonr:
thatcloudthere, well you got some good points there. Yes, he was definetaly a crazy person, but many intelligent people are. Maybe he was just some cultist? |
I disagree...I believe he was telling the truth.
I was only opining that the available options for reacting to his teachings are limited.
I think that calling him a 'good teacher and nothing more' is illogical. Crazy and maniacal, perhaps? Or saviour and redeemer? ...but not just a good teacher.
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11/02/2004 11:55:38 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
How is it that the Ten Commandments state: "Thou Shalt Not kill" but there seems to be so many Judeo/Christians who are so preoccupied with enemies in the name of their religion? Why can't they just leave other people to their own beliefs without having to change them? |
You really can't pick out one part of the Bible that seems to fit your argument and throw it out there and think it makes sense. LOL. If that were acceptable than pretty much nothing about the Bible would make sense - to anyone.
The Bible is full of murder that God commanded in His name to save His people and His land from sin. That's right, the big guy Himself gave the 'ok' many times to wipe out entire towns and nations. As I posted earlier. Of course if you don't believe in the Bible than that is irrelevant to you, but don't make blatant statements regarding things it's obvious you've made no attempt to learn anything about. I realize emotions run high in religious discussions, but passing off emotion as fact is ..well... fiction. |
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11/02/2004 12:15:57 PM · #93 |
The most basic tenets of Judeo/Christian religions are: life above all else and "do unto others..." Are you saying that The Ten Commandments are inconsistent with these basic principles? I think your view of religion and the bible seem to be reconstructionist. A very literal translation of the "word" of the "big gal" herself. The point being that it's very easy for believers to be manipulated by their religious leaders (and political leaders in the name of religion) to commit acts that are antithetical to those religious tenets I mentioned above.
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
How is it that the Ten Commandments state: "Thou Shalt Not kill" but there seems to be so many Judeo/Christians who are so preoccupied with enemies in the name of their religion? Why can't they just leave other people to their own beliefs without having to change them? |
You really can't pick out one part of the Bible that seems to fit your argument and throw it out there and think it makes sense. LOL. If that were acceptable than pretty much nothing about the Bible would make sense - to anyone.
The Bible is full of murder that God commanded in His name to save His people and His land from sin. That's right, the big guy Himself gave the 'ok' many times to wipe out entire towns and nations. As I posted earlier. Of course if you don't believe in the Bible than that is irrelevant to you, but don't make blatant statements regarding things it's obvious you've made no attempt to learn anything about. I realize emotions run high in religious discussions, but passing off emotion as fact is ..well... fiction. |
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11/02/2004 12:34:56 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The most basic tenets of Judeo/Christian religions are: life above all else and "do unto others..." |
Sorry to be blunt, but this premise is wrong and I have to assume you have the only the vaguest understanding of the faith you are commenting on. This is the same as saying that all civil law boils down to "Don't walk on the grass"...
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11/02/2004 12:36:34 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The most basic tenets of Judeo/Christian religions are: life above all else and "do unto others..." |
Actually, I believe that the most basic tenet of the Judeo-Christian religion is "God above all else"...
Edit: ...and there's a lot more that follows because of that...the place of humans...why this world is so screwed up...etc...
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 12:38:09.
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11/02/2004 01:39:39 PM · #96 |
I was brought up Jewish and went to Jewish religious school (yeshiva). We were told over and over and over again that there is nothing more important and of higher sanctity than the life that god gave all; for us as individuals and for others and attempts to preserve life were of the highest order and importance. "Do unto others" was equally emphasized. We were taught all about the wars that were commited in the bible but I can't remember at anytime when those two principles were not considered in the highest regard.
I still hold to those values today and only see killing as an option when in the face of immediate danger to ones life. This discussion seems to prove my point that there are people/powers that use religion to manipulate and cajole others into action and behavior that is not spiritual in nature. |
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11/02/2004 02:03:40 PM · #97 |
I've always understood the Torah to be all about God, his promises, and the salvation of God's people.
Sure, life is given high value in the Scriptures, but greater than that is the worship of God...placing him above all else, was it not?
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11/02/2004 02:19:13 PM · #98 |
Thank god, I'm an atheist. ;-)
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11/02/2004 02:32:20 PM · #99 |
That's not my understanding. Case in point is I can remember the Rabbis in my school and temple telling us that on the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur, when all adults are obligated to fast, it's ok for those with ailments (diabetes, debilitation, etc.) who feel that they would put their lives in jeopardy by fasting, that it was ok not to fast. Of course, you're not supposed to put any other god before the Hebrew god and idolotry is forbidden, but the life of the individual is still considered of the highest moral value.
I could be wrong about these tenets, and invite anyone with different knowledge or opinion/interpretation to speak up. Seems to me that theology is more interpretation of god's intentions and that it is utter hubris to be destroying god's creation in her/his name. To me, the most spiritual people on this earth are those that preserve god's creation, whether human or nature.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I've always understood the Torah to be all about God, his promises, and the salvation of God's people.
Sure, life is given high value in the Scriptures, but greater than that is the worship of God...placing him above all else, was it not? |
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11/02/2004 02:49:09 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
To me, the most spiritual people on this earth are those that preserve god's creation, whether human or nature.
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Interesting...I tend to think that the most spiritual people on this earth are those that search desperately for truth.
I agree that preservation of creation is extremely important to most spiritual people, though...
I just think that there is a greater thing than the creature...namely, the creator.
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