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11/07/2004 01:05:15 AM · #226 |
Ok, but it still applies equally to both. Neither has real christian values at heart with their actions or deeds.
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Seems to me that this exercise in semantics is about getting away from the question originally asked about the meaning of this phrase and how it relates to the current administration in charge of running this country. Imo, they do not behave in Christian moral ways, but rather are chasing money, and all it represents, which seems to go against this biblical phrase. Whether it's all evil, or all kinds of evil, seems that Bush is using his exploits for the wrong and evil ways. |
It's been a while, but I believe the original question was about Jimmy Swaggert, not George Bush. |
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11/07/2004 01:07:12 AM · #227 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To argue a functional or practical difference between "the root of all evil" and "the root of all kinds of evil" has rather the air of Clinton-esque semantics. |
You don't see a rather profound difference between "Money is the root of all evil" and "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."? I agree with your original sentiment that it is a Biblical condemnation of capitalism in it's current form. But you don't see a difference between these? |
You just misquoted me in the way that most people misquote Timothy. It (and I) did not say that "money is ..." but rather that the "love of money ..." is.
What I did say there was no difference between is "all evil ..." and "all kinds of evil ..."
I'm glad you agree that an economic system which uses greed as its primary motivator is inherently anti-Christian in principle ... any others? |
I apologize for the misquote... I looked back and you're right :) Sorry...
However, it is not "difference between is "all evil ..." and "all kinds of evil ..." It's the difference between "the root of all evil" and "a root of all sorts of evil"... Also, leaving out "and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." takes the phrase out of the context it was meant express. It may seem like nitpicking semantics to some, but I think there is a fairly profound difference between them.
You might wonder why I argue about the semantics when I am in total agreement with you on the sentiment. The answer is simple... God and the Bible are not responsible for the evils humankind has inflicted on each-other. People misquoting and misinterpreting the Bible is...
A good example is "God helps those who help themselves"... Ask 10 people where this is from, 9 will tell you it's from the Bible... Only thing is, it ain't...
Message edited by author 2004-11-07 01:11:51.
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11/07/2004 01:07:48 AM · #228 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
...Most of the witch burning in the middle ages was done by German penal law, not the church. |
Correct. The church did not have jurisdiction to effectively burn witches at the stake. They did, however, use its pervasive influence to encourage the witch hunts and, in numerous documented cases, actually identified the very persons to be tortured and burnt at the stake from the loftness of her pulpits.
The detailed and gruesome annals of the hanseatic city of Lemgo, Germany, also document the sacrifice of a priest (for an alleged 'assocciation' with a 'witch') in this manner at a time when the witch hunts were supposedly a thing of the past in the rest of Europe. The church, in fact, never ceased to persecute 'pagans' in central and northern Europe until her reign was firmly and brutally established.
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11/07/2004 01:15:26 AM · #229 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Correct. The church did not have jurisdiction to effectively burn witches at the stake. They did, however, use its pervasive influence to encourage the witch hunts and, in numerous documented cases, actually identified the very persons to be tortured and burnt at the stake from the loftness of her pulpits. |
Ummm, sorry, but the church had little or no influence in the German Empire at that time... Luther and Calvin were the only game in town...
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11/07/2004 01:17:26 AM · #230 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To argue a functional or practical difference between "the root of all evil" and "the root of all kinds of evil" has rather the air of Clinton-esque semantics. |
You don't see a rather profound difference between "Money is the root of all evil" and "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."? I agree with your original sentiment that it is a Biblical condemnation of capitalism in it's current form. But you don't see a difference between these? |
You just misquoted me in the way that most people misquote Timothy. It (and I) did not say that "money is ..." but rather that the "love of money ..." is.
What I did say there was no difference between is "all evil ..." and "all kinds of evil ..."
I'm glad you agree that an economic system which uses greed as its primary motivator is inherently anti-Christian in principle ... any others? |
I apologize for the misquote... I looked back and you're right :) Sorry...
However, it is not "difference between is "all evil ..." and "all kinds of evil ..." It's the difference between "the root of all evil" and "a root of all sorts of evil"... Also, leaving out "and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." takes the phrase out of the context it was meant express. It may seem like nitpicking semantics to some, but I think there is a fairly profound difference between them.
You might wonder why I argue about the semantics when I am in total agreement with you on the sentiment. The answer is simple... God and the Bible are not responsible for the evils humankind has inflicted on each-other. People misquoting and misinterpreting the Bible is...
A good example is "God helps those who help themselves"... Ask 10 people where this is from, 9 will tell you it's from the Bible... Only thing is, it ain't... |
The article does not exist in the ancient Greek texts. It is, perforce, supplied by the translator.
Message edited by author 2004-11-07 01:19:55. |
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11/07/2004 01:20:25 AM · #231 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...(Capitalism) postulates that the best motivator for inventiveness and progress is the prospect of aggrandizement of material possessions, priviledged treatment, and the freedom from physical labor. Its most successful practitioners make nothing, produce nothing of value to society as a whole (not even public amusement, like the entertainment industry), but rather are merely skilled at making financial transactions for profit, much like a skilled poker or blackjack player at a table full of marks... |
Well said. Not served on a pretty platter either. |
Thank you.
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11/07/2004 01:24:05 AM · #232 |
| oh my, General has been out making a dollar. |
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11/07/2004 01:24:22 AM · #233 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
(Capitalism) postulates that the best motivator for inventiveness and progress is the prospect of aggrandizement of material possessions ... It is based on greed ... |
Yes, that is true. Capitalism is essentially based on a major principle of the Bible. The Bible (as opposed to many other books/philosophies) teaches that all humans have a sinful nature and are generally greedy. Capitalism is designed to take advantage of this. Other systems based on the assumption that humans are inherently good and unselfish usually fail. So the success of Capitalism actually points to the truthfulness of the Bible. |
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11/07/2004 01:26:13 AM · #234 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Correct. The church did not have jurisdiction to effectively burn witches at the stake. They did, however, use its pervasive influence to encourage the witch hunts and, in numerous documented cases, actually identified the very persons to be tortured and burnt at the stake from the loftness of her pulpits. |
Ummm, sorry, but the church had little or no influence in the German Empire at that time... Luther and Calvin were the only game in town... |
ΓΆ€ΒΆ The country which is now Germany was not an Empire until much later.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Both Luther and Calvin were born centuries after the witch hunts began. Even in their time, we can hardly speak of influence, never mind the effective institution of respective churches.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Calvin has never had a discernible following in this part of Germany.
The only game in town was the Roman Catholic Church.
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11/07/2004 01:32:41 AM · #235 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Correct. The church did not have jurisdiction to effectively burn witches at the stake. They did, however, use its pervasive influence to encourage the witch hunts and, in numerous documented cases, actually identified the very persons to be tortured and burnt at the stake from the loftness of her pulpits. |
Ummm, sorry, but the church had little or no influence in the German Empire at that time... Luther and Calvin were the only game in town... |
ΓΆ€ΒΆ The country which is now Germany was not an Empire until much later.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Both Luther and Calvin were born centuries after the witch hunts began. Even in their time, we can hardly speak of influence, never mind the effective institution of respective churches.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Calvin has never had a discernible following in this part of Germany.
The only game in town was the Roman Catholic Church. |
What time period are we talking about?
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11/07/2004 01:33:37 AM · #236 |
Originally posted by postoakinversion:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
(Capitalism) postulates that the best motivator for inventiveness and progress is the prospect of aggrandizement of material possessions ... It is based on greed ... |
Yes, that is true. Capitalism is essentially based on a major principle of the Bible. The Bible (as opposed to many other books/philosophies) teaches that all humans have a sinful nature and are generally greedy. Capitalism is designed to take advantage of this. Other systems based on the assumption that humans are inherently good and unselfish usually fail. So the success of Capitalism actually points to the truthfulness of the Bible. |
But then its proponents must be considered the agents of Satan. |
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11/07/2004 01:56:49 AM · #237 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by postoakinversion:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
(Capitalism) postulates that the best motivator for inventiveness and progress is the prospect of aggrandizement of material possessions ... It is based on greed ... |
Yes, that is true. Capitalism is essentially based on a major principle of the Bible. The Bible (as opposed to many other books/philosophies) teaches that all humans have a sinful nature and are generally greedy. Capitalism is designed to take advantage of this. Other systems based on the assumption that humans are inherently good and unselfish usually fail. So the success of Capitalism actually points to the truthfulness of the Bible. |
But then its proponents must be considered the agents of Satan. |
People will be inherently greedy regardless of the economic system they're under, or even the religion they adopt. Capitalism simply uses that greed for good, which is better than not using it for good. Likewise, believe it or not, real Christianity uses the greed of its adherents for good. |
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11/07/2004 02:08:56 AM · #238 |
Originally posted by postoakinversion:
Capitalism simply uses that greed for good, which is better than not using it for good. |
Please provide examples. Please note that current statistics estimate that there are currently some 12-20 million undernourished children in the USA, a large percentage of which also have no access to health care, and factor that into your equation of "doing good."
Using evil to attain good sounds a lot like the "end justify the means" approach of the more oligarchic/fascist modes of governance; I hardly see it as a rallying cry to piousness. |
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11/07/2004 02:42:12 AM · #239 |
Originally posted by postoakinversion:
Capitalism simply uses that greed for good |
That is simply untrue. Profit is the motivator. Is Pepsi good for the public? Corrosive sugar caffeine water that leaches nutrients from the body being sold in schools is a good thing?
I implore anyone interested in seeing the affects and bi products of capitalism and the corporation to watch or read The Corporation. |
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11/07/2004 02:50:13 AM · #240 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Please provide examples. Please note that current statistics estimate that there are currently some 12-20 million undernourished children in the USA, a large percentage of which also have no access to health care, and factor that into your equation of "doing good." |
Nobody said Capitalism is perfect, or that it's a magic cure for all of the world's problems. All I said was that it has generally been more successful than other systems. Most of the world's most prosperous nations are capitalist. The world's major technological, scientific, and medical advancements (at least in the past few hundred years) generally came from Capitalist nations. If you want to compare poverty in America to that of other (non-capitalist) countries of its size, we can. But I don't think you want to go there, as the comparison would not be favorable to your argument.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Using evil to attain good sounds a lot like the "end justify the means" approach of the more oligarchic/fascist modes of governance; I hardly see it as a rallying cry to piousness. |
This is really confusing the issue. Nobody is advocating using evil to attain good. We're talking about an economic system that is optimized for human nature. Humans don't choose whether or not to have a greedy nature. It's an intrinsic property of the species. Governments that think they can force people to be unselfish will inevitably fail because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. Governments that follow Biblical principles would not do such a thing. |
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11/07/2004 03:07:39 AM · #241 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by postoakinversion:
Capitalism simply uses that greed for good |
That is simply untrue. .. |
The only way you can say that is if you deny that any good has come out of Capitalism. I submit that a lot of the recent advancements in medicine and technology help people, are good, and came about at least partially out of the desire for profit. Thus, Capitalism does use greed for good.
You can bring up examples of how the desire for money motivates some people to do things that are not good. But that's a red herring. The point was not that Capitalism is perfect, or that people can't abuse it. The point was that Capitalism is generally more successful than systems that deny the Biblical principle that Capitalism is based on. |
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