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10/12/2004 05:56:21 PM · #1 |
I felt I should post this having been bombarded as of lately.
I get a lot of this "hey so you're a photographer? Cause I'm really good, I take great shots of my cat". I'm dead serious. That's a direct quote from at least one person (happened to be a client) I met last week.
I know a lot of very well known Canadian artists including painters, videographers, photographers, vocalists, designers, musicians and audio engineers and they ALL agree that no true artist is ever satisfied with their work.
They also say they don't even LIKE their own work in most cases.
My point is this: if you're really happy with what you've produced, try doing it about another 100 times - see if it can be better.
This is a challenge to all (including myself)! Never be satisfied and don't brag, practice practice and practice again.
I think a lot of people post here with titles like "critique please" but are really wanting vindication. Be objective and be a perfectionist. Have you ever noticed how eccentric most 'true' artists tend to be? There's a reason: they've driven themselves MAD!
:: Goldberry ::
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10/12/2004 06:03:40 PM · #2 |
I totally agree!
No artist is ever happy with what they produce.
I do a bit of writing, I have 13 novels all written out, but none submitted cos I don't feel they are quite what I was aiming for!
Same with my photos, okay, so I submit photos for challenges, but I never feel they are quite what I wanted to show in the photograph. But, like gardening, if you think your garden is just right, then you ain't no gardener.
Likewise with photography, if you are happy with a shot, you won't need to take anymore photos. It's a great thing that we suffer from this malady, it is this failing to reach perfection that keep us trying to get that perfect shot! And, we never will, or our interest in photography will die at that point. |
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10/12/2004 06:20:51 PM · #3 |
Along the same lines, I am sometimes shocked at some of the posts asking "why did this score so low". Many times, 1) it wasn't a low score in my opinion, and 2) it is obvious and seems to be well within that score's quality, and 3) why is a DPC score so important if you are truly happy with it? Tastes ae all so relative and varied. That's my mini-rant for the day!
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10/12/2004 06:38:32 PM · #4 |
I agree with the spirit of things. I agree that I always have something to learn. I agree that nothing I do is 100% totally, completely perfect, cause if it was - I probably wouldn't be here (in 'here' - I mean this life. Not in this website :-)
I also liked the idea of trying to repeate something good. It is well known that you can't do it exactly the same. By repeating it - you have a wonderful opportunity to get something even better then the first time - or - learn what was so good in that first time that you can not repeate now, and thus learn a new thing you were probably not aware of.
Yet, I think that one should learn his weaknesses and when you create something - learn first what's good about it. Don't drive yourself mad or kill your motivation by exploring only the bad things.
I don't think that asking for vindication is a bad thing. Sometimes a post such as "WOW what a great photo" is very motivating.
To never be satisfied and to not brag is a good advice. Just don't take it too far. "Never be satisfied", but not "never like your work". You have to like it. You have to enjoy doing it. I believe that only then you can develop creativity. Never be satisfied because you can alway aim higher, you can always learn new things, you can always do it better eventually.
The key word here is not 'better'. It is 'can'.
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10/13/2004 02:48:04 AM · #5 |
So, basically your saying that it is not possible for me to like what I create if it is truly good; and also that if I truly like what I create it actually sucks -- I just don't know the true extent of its suckitude just yet. And that in order to know the suckiness of my creation I must first continue creating it past the point it is finished until I have in fact un-created it.
Uh ... No! Not even close. I am able to like what I create and have what I like truly be good; and conversely, I am able to create something that is truly good and like it.
A person can be certain about their creations; in fact, something created from nothing out of ones own imagination and ability is perhaps the only thing they can be completely certain of. To not have that certainty of ones own creation would be, imo, quite insane.
***
Maybe that is a bit harsh. I do agree with the gist of the rest of the thread that people need to be more receptive of comments and open to suggestions. However, just because there is always room for improvement, from someone's perspective, does not mean the creator can not be completely satisfied with some creation. It does not automatically mean they are rejecting further advancement, only that they have decided they are done with that particular creation. There are other creations to be created -- creations that will likely put to use the lessons learned from actually completing the previous creation.
It is possible to be happy with what you create -- and to have what you create be good.
David
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10/13/2004 02:58:57 AM · #6 |
probably why I'm poor. I "think" I have good photos, but If I really believed that, I'd have put together my portfolio already and shopped it around. Instead of procrastinating.
Or maybe I'm just lazy?
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10/13/2004 03:02:17 AM · #7 |
| I like alot of my photos, However i'm never satisfied with them I know I can do better. I am always trying to better them. I have asked for opinions here because I want to learn how others would make my shots better. |
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10/13/2004 06:16:57 AM · #8 |
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10/13/2004 06:27:36 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by grigrigirl:
what is a spotless mind? |
One that doesnt spot the joke? maybe?
it is all important to see the humour..
But I really just wanted to say that sometimes I have come up with a photo that brings me great joy and pleasure because by a combination of luck, nature and having seen "something" to try and capture, I have come up with a shot that I can gaze at anew and see what I nearly saw when I took it. Trouble is they never happen in time for a challenge...
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10/13/2004 10:26:21 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
I know a lot of very well known Canadian artists including painters, videographers, photographers, vocalists, designers, musicians and audio engineers and they ALL agree that no true artist is ever satisfied with their work.
They also say they don't even LIKE their own work in most cases. |
I have heard this before and it continues to baffle me. I simply can't understand the idea. If a 'true artist' is never satisfied with his own work, what motivates them to continue with it? If they never see anything worthwhile in what they are doing, you would think they would give it up for something else maybe?
I think this attitude and idea goes much deeper than this. I know a few photographers who claim to never be happy with what they do, but they continue to share their work in public forums. This doesn't make much sense to me either, but it happens all the time. I am always impressed by what I see these people post, but they never have much good to say about it themselves. It's a bit contradictory IMO.
Striving for excellence is always good. I just don't think that veiling excellence behind a mask of discontent is productive or beneficial in any particular way.
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10/13/2004 10:47:28 AM · #11 |
JM, we mustn't know the same people :-)
There's a difference, as far as I can tell, with your degree of happiness (in regards to your own work) dependent on the audience. It's all relative - of course. Most musicians I know can play a coffee house gig with one hand behind their back (and then discuss how much they hate coffee house gigs) but get nervous when playing with other musicians they deem better than themselves.
The point of my original post was to see your work as art, and as such, unfinished.
I think what some people just don't get is that you can have an inner sense of accomplishment with what you've done but still understand it can be better. I know I take photos that I really like but know they can be much much better ... so then I have to wonder why I really like it in the first place. Usually it's just the emotional attachment in one form or another. Which is fine and dandy.
To be philosophical, in life, it is said that you are most influenced and most like the 7 closest people in your life (that is to say, generally, the 7 people you spend the most time with). If you spend your days cooped up with engineers you're bound to be analytical. But, if you are surrounded by free-thinkers and artists, you're bound to adopt their personas and attitudes.
Who do you spend the most time with?
Message edited by author 2004-10-13 10:50:47. |
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10/13/2004 10:50:18 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
The point of my original post was to see your work as art, and as such, unfinished. |
Have you never made a photo that you are completely happy with and don't think could be better?
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10/13/2004 10:51:18 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
...I just don't think that veiling excellence behind a mask of discontent is productive or beneficial in any particular way. |
Interesting thread. My cynical view of those who post really good work and grumble about how they "can do so much better" is that they are simply trying to make themselves look even better by implying "I'm actually much better than this work suggests."
I do think that those who are really committed to an art form tend to always be striving to do better. I don't think this is equivalent to not liking one's work, but rather recognizing that no one of us is capable of perfect work, thus there is always room for improvement. In the case of my photography, vast expanses of room, LOL. |
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10/13/2004 10:52:04 AM · #14 |
| Can we rejoice in our creations because, like us, they are imperfect? By who's standard imperfect anyway? Maybe we should ask: is our creation effective in conveying the communication of our intention? What is the definition of a true artist? Seems to me that looking for new ways of stating something in a given outlet is a good thing, but not for the purposes of reducing the artist's esteem of their art or self, but rather to just learn new ways of expressing. |
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10/13/2004 10:53:44 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
The point of my original post was to see your work as art, and as such, unfinished. |
Have you never made a photo that you are completely happy with and don't think could be better? |
Absolutely not. If I ever say "wow, this is perfect" I should probably lay down in traffic because I'm obviously dillusional.
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10/13/2004 10:56:39 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
The point of my original post was to see your work as art, and as such, unfinished. |
Have you never made a photo that you are completely happy with and don't think could be better? |
Absolutely not. If I ever say "wow, this is perfect" I should probably lay down in traffic because I'm obviously dillusional. |
When you evaluate your work, what sorts of elements come into play that make you think any particular image could be better? Is it your opinion of what someone else will think about it or what YOU think about it?
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10/13/2004 10:57:00 AM · #17 |
I think you'll find most successful artists are overly fond of their own work - especially actors, musicians and directors.
Watch or read any interview with those over confident people and listen to them say how good their last album, film or artwork was - it's that 'confidence' that has made them successful.
If your going to whine about how your photo, novel, drawing isn't good enough then you will never succeed in earning anything from it.
That's from a purely money based perspective anyway - if your after personal satisfaction, well one can be satisfied in many different ways be it money, acclaim etc etc
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10/13/2004 11:03:53 AM · #18 |
I agree with your post completely, jonpink...
I think that to say that most artists are never happy with their work seems silly.
Sure...there are eccentrics but I'm one who happens to think that Salvador Dali is cool because of his paintings, not because he drove around in a car filled with vegetables in order to be even more eccentric.
Edit: That being said, my position still leaves room for the opinion that everything I do can be (and should be) improved.
I used to write and record music and I would listen to it all the time (in the car, on my walkman)...At first I felt silly but then I realised that I love listening to my music because I created something I love.
Same goes for my photographs...I often use them for my desktop background.
Few things are more irritating than false humility...other than perhaps hypocritical holiness...
Message edited by author 2004-10-13 11:05:07. |
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10/13/2004 11:21:10 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
I think you'll find most successful artists are overly fond of their own work - especially actors, musicians and directors.
Watch or read any interview with those over confident people and listen to them say how good their last album, film or artwork was - it's that 'confidence' that has made them successful.
If your going to whine about how your photo, novel, drawing isn't good enough then you will never succeed in earning anything from it.
That's from a purely money based perspective anyway - if your after personal satisfaction, well one can be satisfied in many different ways be it money, acclaim etc etc |
Yes, but there are always people who suffer from delusions of adequacy, LOL
Edit: I get your point though, the amount of people who make it in this world though no talent by sheer force of self-belief is incredible. The question for many people is, do you want to be one of those people?!
Message edited by author 2004-10-13 11:22:27. |
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10/13/2004 11:24:26 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Interesting thread. My cynical view of those who post really good work and grumble about how they "can do so much better" is that they are simply trying to make themselves look even better by implying "I'm actually much better than this work suggests." |
More like, "I'm not really this BAD" ;)
I'd say it's more from a lack of confidence...or thier own cynical outlook. If the past is full of "nothings ever good enough"s, so will their future without some major outlook adjustments.
Originally posted by kirbic:
I do think that those who are really committed to an art form tend to always be striving to do better. I don't think this is equivalent to not liking one's work, but rather recognizing that no one of us is capable of perfect work, thus there is always room for improvement. In the case of my photography, vast expanses of room, LOL. |
This coming from someone with 4 ribbons.....lol
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10/13/2004 11:26:03 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Yes, but there are always people who suffer from delusions of adequacy, LOL
Edit: I get your point though, the amount of people who make it in this world though no talent by sheer force of self-belief is incredible. The question for many people is, do you want to be one of those people?! |
This comment delves into an entirely different subject. You are looking in from the outside here. I never claim to know much about 'art' in general, but what I do see in my own view of a 'true artist' is a person who creates for themselves before others. When you look from the perspective you give here, you are judging what they do rather than looking at self judgement. I think the original theme of this thread is 'self satisfaction' in art... not what others think of your work.
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10/13/2004 11:31:28 AM · #22 |
I was told , "people who think they are the best, never get better"
i believe that. |
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10/13/2004 11:43:15 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I have heard this before and it continues to baffle me. I simply can't understand the idea. If a 'true artist' is never satisfied with his own work, what motivates them to continue with it? If they never see anything worthwhile in what they are doing, you would think they would give it up for something else maybe? |
They probably do quit, many times, and yet come back and continue until they quit again. It is possible to believe you can do something, to be convinced that you are good at something, and to want to do that something. When you have the finished art in front of you it is possible to dislike it enough that it makes it so frustrating that you quit in a tantrum because it is not good enough. Then you start believing in yourself again and start all over. It's a vicious circle.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think this attitude and idea goes much deeper than this. I know a few photographers who claim to never be happy with what they do, but they continue to share their work in public forums. This doesn't make much sense to me either, but it happens all the time. I am always impressed by what I see these people post, but they never have much good to say about it themselves. It's a bit contradictory IMO. |
I would be one of those people. I have some photograhs that I like, but normally after a period of time I grow to dislike them. It's likely the emotional attachment that I had for the image has waned and I see the image for all its technical imperfections. I also lack confidence in my ability. I see other photographers taking better photographs with better subjects. I dont get the 'wow' with my own photography that I get when I look at others. Yet I do post to public forums like DPC and pbase. Why? Because I like the validation that comes with someone else saying they like my stuff. Because if someone else doesnt say they like it then it's obviously crap. Doing photography for myself isnt enough anymore. I want to make people say 'wow'.
I use to like the photographs I took when I first started photography in Jan 2003. I look back now and they are horrid. I use to wear cool clothes in the 80's that cause me to cringe when I look back now. People develop and change and their likes and dislikes change too.
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10/13/2004 11:43:17 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by riotspyne:
I was told , "people who think they are the best, never get better"
i believe that. |
So do I, but I believe that's the other end of the spectrum. I would also offer that "people who think they're the worst, never get better".
By that, I mean that those who claim that their photos are 'no good' will probably never claim anything different (even though what they really feel about their art may differ from what they claim). |
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10/13/2004 11:43:47 AM · #25 |
I think that what goldberry was trying to say is that most artist - even if they are happy with there work - can always see room in themselves for improvement. Its the driving force that pushes us on and makes us stive to better ouselves
Why do people get so sensitive? |
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