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10/09/2004 12:26:41 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Threads like this one seem to repeat every few months. How do you guys know so much about what is in the minds of those who cast low votes, their motivations?
And how come nobody complains about high votes for images they don't care for? Why isn't there talk about ulterior motives and name calling directed at people who vote high?
Isn't it all just people not accepting the fact that someone else doesn't like an image as well as they do?
In my scheme for voting I make an effort to decide which are the best and the worst entries in every challenge, and therefore, give at least one 1 and one 10 almost every time. Anyone want to psychoanaylze that? |
I sign under it with both of my hands. This is what I tried to explain in "revenge votes" thread.
I believe is time to stop such discussion. |
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10/09/2004 12:27:29 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
I'll mention it briefly again for those that are new. |
Lack of brevity: karma penalty -10. |
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10/09/2004 12:30:16 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by dwoolridge:
Lack of brevity: karma penalty -10. |
LOL. Point taken.
I started out with good intentions of keeping it short... |
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10/09/2004 12:30:29 PM · #29 |
| The karma system would probably also require that the "helpful" comment rating be taken more seriously, or perhaps modified ... the only real problems I see with that system are that it is (potentially) so complex as to make it hard to try as an experiment for a month or so, and that people who want a high karma rating will necessarily be forced to adjust their voting pattern to more closely mirror the site average, making it unlikely that the site's concept of "good photo" will evolve significantly over time. |
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10/09/2004 12:33:29 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by dwoolridge:
Lack of brevity: karma penalty -10. |
LOL. Point taken.
I started out with good intentions of keeping it short... |
I found it an excellent summary for those who didn't want to research the full discussion at the posted links.
Karma penalty overturned on instant replay. |
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10/09/2004 12:40:06 PM · #31 |
| You don't have to conduct experiments for future events. Past challenges can be used to check validity of the karmic solution. Yes, such a system seems to be subtly coercive in maintaining the middling forms of "photographic art" that is so representative of dpc. It reminds me of figure skating. |
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10/09/2004 12:42:03 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by marksimms:
I have been looking at the results for the current masters challenge ans saw that on the winning photo, some people had marked it as a one. Surely these people are not voting fairly as there is no way that anyone, even the blind could vote that as a 1.
What I ask is this.
1. The people who voted 1, have they an entry in the challenge also.
2. Should then be contacted (randomly) and asked why they voted that picture so low.
This has probably been mentioned before, but maybe now is the time to do something about it?? |
Giveing 1's to popular photographs is no worse than giving 10's to some of the bad photographs in every challenge.
Message edited by author 2004-10-09 12:42:25. |
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10/09/2004 12:42:31 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
I started out with good intentions of keeping it short... |
The road to hell...or something like that.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I found it an excellent summary for those who didn't want to research the full discussion at the posted links.
Karma penalty overturned on instant replay. |
Guffaw! As yoda might say: Summary it was, brief it was not, hmmm? |
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10/09/2004 12:48:26 PM · #34 |
Easy idea for the score thing.
You can vote if you can't see your score.
You can't vote if you can see your score.
So start everyone in voting mode... can't see your score. There will be a toggle switch that can set you to view score mode but you cannot go back to voting after you toggle, but you can now see your score. While in voting mode you can vote and revote to your liking, just that your score is not there. And once you toggle, you see the your score but your votes are now locked in.
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10/09/2004 12:48:33 PM · #35 |
| This topic has been beaten over and over in past forums. Is there really a need to keep flogging the horse so long after is is dead and rotten? |
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10/09/2004 12:49:24 PM · #36 |
| Low voters should not have to justify their marks. I try to be honest when commenting but time is always a factor. If the amount of entries are high like this weeks, I want to comment on all levels of votes. Masters or weak beginners should not be singled out as special treatment guests. If I want to react to a photo being presented to me in a challenge, I need not be told to neglect the middle folk due to complaints or grand standing. If the party is fun I'll stick around otherwise me and my friends look elsewhere. I love this site and the format as is. I could comment on all pictures but who wants to wait an extra 2 weeks for a first impression or fresh opinion. I sometimes neglect commenting on 1's and 10's and let my score do the talking. The curious can always inquire but why leave all this work to the viewer. Self evaluation is a great way to determine what made a photo popular. A very unpopular vote could hold a splendid idea that teaches the rest of us to take one step beyond our limits. Attitude ladies and gentlemen. |
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10/09/2004 01:08:12 PM · #37 |
ive suggested a solution a couple times that solves two problems:
1) too many pictures to vote and comment, and
2) how to keep people from lowballing each other to help themselves.
It's simple: have two challenges at the same time: you can submit to one challenge and vote in another. you can't vote on the challenge you submit to.
that effectively solves both problems.
Message edited by author 2004-10-09 13:08:54.
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10/09/2004 01:23:50 PM · #38 |
:)
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
ive suggested a solution a couple times that solves two problems:
1) too many pictures to vote and comment, and
2) how to keep people from lowballing each other to help themselves.
It's simple: have two challenges at the same time: you can submit to one challenge and vote in another. you can't vote on the challenge you submit to.
that effectively solves both problems. |
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10/09/2004 01:50:12 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by yeoua:
Easy idea for the score thing.
You can vote if you can't see your score.
You can't vote if you can see your score.
So start everyone in voting mode... can't see your score. There will be a toggle switch that can set you to view score mode but you cannot go back to voting after you toggle, but you can now see your score. While in voting mode you can vote and revote to your liking, just that your score is not there. And once you toggle, you see the your score but your votes are now locked in. |
This doesn't sound like such a bad idea..... |
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10/09/2004 01:54:37 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by richterrell:
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
The real question is whether to judge an image based on a set of standards we can agree on (I believe such standards exist), or whether to express our personal taste for the image itself. Judging and voting are not the same. I feel it would be best to try and separate them. That calls for a different scoring scheme. |
I'm not sure how this is possible. Art is so subjective, and so variable in perception from one person to the next that it does not seem realistic to have everyone judging a photo using the same standards. What is the old adage? One person's garbage is another person's treasure? Something along those lines, anyway.
I would definitely be interested in the standards you mention, though. |
For some reason, I've rarely seen a watercolor I like. The same applies to most abstract paintings (oil or water). On a scale of 1 to 10, I doubt I'd give a watercolor any more than a 3 - based purely on how the image pleases me - my own warped taste. I wouldn't hang one on my wall.
I have a good friend who does a fantastic job with watercolor. On a scale of 1 to 10, he's a consistent 8 or 9. It's obvious to me that he's talented, has a good command of the art and the craft, and that he knows how to apply that talent. I admire his work. I just don't like it...
I think we can separate our judgement of creativity and execution from our own personal tastes.
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10/09/2004 01:57:20 PM · #41 |
| oh, Yick, if someone has given me a 1, 2, or 3, I already know their oppinion of my shot. Forcing them to tell me they hate it (and most comments would not even be that polite) would do neither me nor them any good. Better to get actually feedback on what I can do better from people who see potential in the shot. |
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10/09/2004 02:00:25 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by C-Fox:
oh, Yick, if someone has given me a 1, 2, or 3, I already know their oppinion of my shot. Forcing them to tell me they hate it (and most comments would not even be that polite) would do neither me nor them any good. Better to get actually feedback on what I can do better from people who see potential in the shot. |
Quite -- it's actually the photos in the 4-5 range which get the fewest comments, even though they have the most to gain from constructive suggestions as to how to turn those potentially good pictures into 6-9 ones.
If anyone should be forced to comment, it should be those who rate the photo a 4 or 5 -- slightly below average -- so they can become above average.
Message edited by author 2004-10-09 14:01:47. |
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10/09/2004 02:50:42 PM · #43 |
| In regards to thread title: NO |
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10/09/2004 02:57:58 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
ive suggested a solution a couple times that solves two problems:
1) too many pictures to vote and comment, and
2) how to keep people from lowballing each other to help themselves.
It's simple: have two challenges at the same time: you can submit to one challenge and vote in another. you can't vote on the challenge you submit to.
that effectively solves both problems. |
I had made this suggestion before because this eliminates the vested interest. The ususal compain I received is that this will cut down on the total votes. But if this idea could be implemented it would go a long way to solve many problems. |
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10/09/2004 03:03:53 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
have two challenges at the same time: you can submit to one challenge and vote in another. you can't vote on the challenge you submit to. |
That seems reasonable until you realize that both challenges would have to have equal "interest" in order for it to be as fair as possible. If "Team Sports Action" is scheduled at the same time as "Flowers", there are going to be hundreds of entries in "Flowers" and (using past challenge entry numbers as a guide) significantly less in "Team Sport Action". Having to schedule "equally likeable" challenges every week would add a pretty big level of complexity, especially since it might be hard to predict "interest". But I think that potential differential in submissions would be problematic in a lot of cases.
Message edited by author 2004-10-09 15:05:31. |
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10/09/2004 03:12:27 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
But what stinks is when, let's say George knows which photo is Tom's and Tom's score is higher than his by .003. George goes back and revotes for Tom's and lowers it to a 1 instead of a 7. Now, guess who is in the lead? George!
I do think this goes on. I don't want any part of it. My score for some reason dropped that last few hours of voting for the Master's challenge.
What can we do? Nothing. There are always going to be people do that. The only thing you can do is just enjoy the fun. Let it go. (which is hard) |
If this is what people are doing just to win, then they must be pretty sad. Everyone would like to be a winner of a ribbon or two, but to go to those lengths reflects their mental state as well as their lack of competitiveness.
However, is it worth stress and hair tearing when it is beyond our control. If they need to win by 'cheating', then let them have what they want, for they will soon tire of this and move on from the site.
I have stated on numerous ocassions that I vote how I feel about a photo, not on who I think the photographer is or whether they are ahead or behind me in the challenge. There are no usually many behind me, so I try to be as fair and honest as possible. |
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10/09/2004 03:12:56 PM · #47 |
So many suggestions, I must suggest one myself!
Setup two divisions: Division A and Division B
Each challenge, the 50% with highest score in Division B are upgraded to division A, and the lowest 50% in Division A are degraded to division B. Then have the two divisions vote on each other division.
People will be moved up and down to A and B each challenge, and you never vote on images in your own "division".
That would solve the problem AND create a more exciting form of challenge, it will not only be about winning ribbons, but also staying the longest in Division A.
:-)
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10/09/2004 03:24:42 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
In my scheme for voting I make an effort to decide which are the best and the worst entries in every challenge, and therefore, give at least one 1 and one 10 almost every time. Anyone want to psychoanaylze that? |
I don't agree with this at all. It has always been my understanding that we are supposed to simply judge each photo individually on it's own merits, period. The order of the photos will be determined electronically and that is not for us to try to determine. I don't think one score should be at all related to another score and that goes for subject matter too if you are truly trying to vote objectively. Sure, individual biasis are going to creep in (some people really dislike puppy pictures) but you should, at least, be trying to overcome them and be attempting to vote for the quality of the image as apposed to your personal feelings of the subject matter.
T
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10/09/2004 03:34:28 PM · #49 |
Anyone have any idea -- even a wild guess -- as to how many times this subject has been brought up on this site? It seems like it comes up at least once a month, maybe more!
Geesh! |
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10/09/2004 03:35:40 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by boomer:
Anyone have any idea -- even a wild guess -- as to how many times this subject has been brought up on this site? It seems like it comes up at least once a month, maybe more!
Geesh! |
Once per challenge.
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