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07/23/2015 05:02:43 PM · #326 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
You are duly reminded that the bad guys with knives in your article were related to the victims, so it's more likley that they would have USED any guns available in the house rather than be stopped by them. |
Very true. And such goes my point that guns are simply convinent, the lack of them will not prevent homicides. |
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07/23/2015 05:35:09 PM · #327 |
Originally posted by Cory:
And such goes my point that guns are simply convinent, the lack of them will not prevent homicides. |
Hang on while I catch my breath after you moved the argument's goalposts all the way from "we need guns for protection" to "OK, guns wouldn't have helped, but we can't prevent 100% of deaths, so there's no point in doing anything." Now I'll remind you that your article included survivors, which would by considerably less likely if the attackers had guns. |
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07/23/2015 06:07:57 PM · #328 |
| How come these threads don't have "LIKE" buttons? If they do, where the hell are they? |
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07/23/2015 08:37:49 PM · #329 |
Originally posted by Luciemac:
How come these threads don't have "LIKE" buttons? If they do, where the hell are they? |
LIKE |
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07/23/2015 09:35:03 PM · #330 |
Originally posted by Luciemac:
How come these threads don't have "LIKE" buttons? If they do, where the hell are they? |
Still waiting for an answer as to your solution to the problem.
Since you're so vehement in your objections, surely you have a solution.
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07/23/2015 10:39:06 PM · #331 |
It just becomes more inevitable. WTF, people just can't behave I guess.. Don't think a ban will really help, but its pretty much a given at some point soon, and the whole damn thing sucks.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people? |
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07/23/2015 10:39:52 PM · #332 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
And such goes my point that guns are simply convinent, the lack of them will not prevent homicides. |
Hang on while I catch my breath after you moved the argument's goalposts all the way from "we need guns for protection" to "OK, guns wouldn't have helped, but we can't prevent 100% of deaths, so there's no point in doing anything." Now I'll remind you that your article included survivors, which would by considerably less likely if the attackers had guns. |
Boy, I bet you're gonna need an ambulance when you read my last post. ;-)
BTW: I understand there was a survivor, not survivors. That's 1\6th .. The one I posted just a moment ago would seem to contradict the argument you made above, as the death\injury ratio is significantly 'better' despite the use of a gun'..
Also,I've always argued that guns discourage crime, the risk isn't worth it to some, but then again who knows.. I do think the evidence agrees that genuine defense only arguments aren't sufficient.. But its is a part of the reason I still like them being legal..
Message edited by author 2015-07-23 22:46:56. |
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07/23/2015 11:24:13 PM · #333 |
Originally posted by Cory:
But its is a part of the reason I still like them being legal.. |
And there in lies the problem. This thread, and most any discussion about guns comes down to the question of should all guns be banned or are guns a sacred part of American life.
It is a false choice promulgated by those who do not want to have any restrictions on guns for fear of some "world government" coming in and confiscating all our guns, or all our rights, and all our liberties. Such a position eliminates any possibility of having a rational discussion about the best way to lower the cost of the damage of having so many guns in our nation, in lives, in dollars, and in the moral strain on the fabric of our nation.
Every other first world country has been able to have this debate on a rational basis. Every other first world nation is able to practice hunting, yet has greater safety in their homes and persons, and many fewer murders per capita. Limiting who can have guns will not change our violent nature as humans, but guns are the most efficient weapon for doing people in. England is still a much more violent place than America, but they beat each other up, they don't shoot each other, and however much you love guns, you have to admit it is harder to kill a person with a brick or a lawn chair than with a gun.
Until we can get through the concept that gun control is not the elimination of all guns, simply limitations to try to make guns more rare and make a serious effort to keep them out of the hands of criminals, and an effective federal control system of existing weaponry, the delusions of the paranoid scuttle any rational solution. |
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07/23/2015 11:32:03 PM · #334 |
Another mass shooting at a theater in Louisiana, 3 people shot in East Baltimore, another killed in West Baltimore, a sixth gun homicide in Poughkeepsie, community leader killed in a Seattle drive-by shooting, a man shot in the leg at a PA rifle range, a fatal shooting in Milwaukee, suspect shot in a Houston gun battle, another shot in east Houston, shots fired at two apartment complexes in AR, a man shot in Compton, 4 dead and 1 injured in Suwanee, GA, man fatally shot in Buffalo, man shot and killed in Los Angeles, 10 year old accidentally shoots himself in the face in Oklahoma City, fatal shooting after a drunken argument in Fort Smith AR, man critically injured with multiple gunshot shots in New Orleans, fatal shooting in Darlington, SC, man fatally shot in Huntsville, AL, 2 teens injured in Syracuse drive-by shooting, 1 killed 2 injured in Selma, AL drive-by shooting, a deadly shooting in Cleveland, pedestrian shot near Chicago, man fatally shot in Harrison, OH after confronting police with gun, man shot in Lincoln Park, two men open fire with a shotgun and semi-auto pistol in La Puente, CA, man with felony drug convictions shoots up his own house in Brainerd, MN, fatal shooting in Franklin County, TX, woman shot in Rochester, shooting in Athens, AL, man shot in Memphis, deadly shooting in Peoria, child playing with gun fatally shoots his brother in Traverse CIty, MI, two 15 year olds playing with dad's gun in Weslaco, TX leave 1 wounded, double shooting with injuries in Portsmouth, VA, man fatally shoots self in head while playing gun game in Conyers, GA, woman beaten and fired upon in Augusta, GA, 18yo shot several times in Wilmington, NC, man shot in Richland County, SC, a shooting in Santa Maria, two pedestrians shot in Newport News, shooting at an apartment complex in Phoenix... THAT'S JUST IN THE PAST 24 HOURS, and there are more– I got bored listing them.
This is not freedom, it's insanity, and its bears no relation whatsoever to a well regulated militia securing the state. If even a fraction of these incidents were the actions of ISIS or an outbreak of ebola, every newspaper and media figure would be screaming 24/7 about a national emergency as politicians trip over each other to safeguard the the country at any cost. Less than 100 Americans have been killed by terrorists since 9/11, while tens of thousands have perished from our own refusal to address a basic public safety issue. This MUST change, of course, but it'll take an act (or several) even more horrific than Sandy Hook to raise national awareness above the din of gun fanatics clinging to a warped interpretation of a Constitutional revision before we enact demonstrably effective measures like comprehensive background checks and the already-accepted ban on automatic weapons. The lunatic fringe will have the requisite temper tantrum that follows any social progress like gay marriage or desegregation, and then it'll settle down and we'll look back on those people as crazed zealots and wonder what all the fuss was about. While I feel sorry for all the victims that will needlessly die to bring about the freedom to live without fear of being shot in your own home or church, that day can't come soon enough.
Message edited by author 2015-07-23 23:36:42. |
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07/23/2015 11:57:02 PM · #335 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Boy, I bet you're gonna need an ambulance when you read my last post. |
Nope. You tend to face reality eventually. I haven't heard details or a motive yet, but what do you think the chances are that same person would pick up a knife or baseball bat and head to the theater to kill people?
Originally posted by Cory:
I understand there was a survivor, not survivors. |
Two people, a girl and a toddler, survived the attack. The ratio of survivors was not the point, though, just the undeniable killing efficiency a gun provides.
Originally posted by Cory:
I've always argued that guns discourage crime, the risk isn't worth it to some, but then again who knows... |
People who actually study guns and crime know, and it's a myth (never mind the well documented fact that having a gun in the house vastly increases your odds of being shot). Note that many of the shootings listed in my previous post were in deep red southern states like GA, SC and TX where criminals could face a gun practically anywhere. The Chattanooga shooter was actually fired upon and killed two armed soldiers. Heck, guns are one of the most frequently stolen items, and when a map of gun owners in Westchester was published a few years back, the biggest fear was that criminals would be MORE inclined to go where the guns are.
Message edited by author 2015-07-24 00:01:55. |
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07/24/2015 02:10:31 AM · #336 |
Cory, one of your strip mall sentinels has shot and wounded a chunk of cement on the ground next to his foot. Pesky triggers. The recruitment centers were advised days ago to treat these people like threats, the shooter has been arrested, and the strip mall owner has had the police escort all the other bafoons off their property.
I didn't feel "amazingly ignorant of the law" when you accused me of such when I suggested this would be the way it would go, but I won't ask for an apology as I understand you're hard at work trying to link the word "but" to "unregulated militia." Spoiler: tough climb.
Over/under on lost arguments you'll abandon tomorrow is sitting at seven, though I've just tampered, so now you'll either hide or come out guns blazing. Either way it'll be a good day. |
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07/24/2015 07:22:23 AM · #337 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Until we can get through the concept that gun control is not the elimination of all guns, simply limitations to try to make guns more rare and make a serious effort to keep them out of the hands of criminals, and an effective federal control system of existing weaponry, the delusions of the paranoid scuttle any rational solution. |
Why is this so unacceptable? Shouldn't the NRA be all over this? The *ONLY* way the madness will stop is for gun owners to get on board with this.
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07/24/2015 07:40:26 AM · #338 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Luciemac:
How come these threads don't have "LIKE" buttons? If they do, where the hell are they? |
Still waiting for an answer as to your solution to the problem.
Since you're so vehement in your objections, surely you have a solution. |
I don't know if there IS a good solution. Too many 'Muricans enjoy killing for sport, find their courage and self-worth in guns, resist regulation or background checks as threatening their manhood and overreach by gummint. Excuses are made, silly rhetoric and semantics take over the discussion rather than talk about finding solutions. "Protection" has so little to do with gun ownership, it's barely worth mentioning.
Even Obama has become part of this thread. HE is the problem, subverting the constitution in order to grab yer gunz.....how many of yours has he confiscated so far?
This very long and contentious thread, and especially the defensiveness from you hard-core types bears out what I said above and it should make you happy that most of the country is on your side. As long as the bullshit continues, the hatred for government, your ignorance of the constitution, and your lust for gun violence, nothing will ever change. Every tragedy underscores the fact that you're winning your bloody battle. Congratulations.
What has to happen for you to change your mind? If Sandy Hook, Aurora, Charlston, or..or.....didn't do it for you, what will? Nuthin'? I get it, Bubba. |
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07/24/2015 07:44:51 AM · #339 |
| Mass Shootings in America by the Numbers -- NPR report (audio available now, transcript later) |
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07/24/2015 07:59:50 AM · #340 |
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07/24/2015 08:45:54 AM · #341 |
As with most things, follow the money.
Nothing generates sales of guns more than paranoia of them being taken away. The NRA (and gun and ammo companies) benefit greatly from every publicized effort to prevent more gun violence. So it has a spiral effect - they want more guns to be sold - and the more guns out there, the better chance someone irresponsible has them.
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07/24/2015 08:59:28 AM · #342 |
Originally posted by tate:
As with most things, follow the money.
Nothing generates sales of guns more than paranoia of them being taken away. The NRA (and gun and ammo companies) benefit greatly from every publicized effort to prevent more gun violence. So it has a spiral effect - they want more guns to be sold - and the more guns out there, the better chance someone irresponsible has them. |
this line says it all.
Notoriously, tobacco executives even attempted to form their own version of the NRA in 1993, seeing the inherent benefit to the industry that such an effort would have. Philip Morris bankrolled the National Smokers Alliance, a group that never quite had the groundswell of support the industry wanted.
Read more: //www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1#ixzz3goUMP7tR
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07/24/2015 08:59:59 AM · #343 |
That's an old article...There is on statement in it that kindof irks me
One of the most interesting aspects of all is how an association for sportsmen became the prime defenders of assault weaponry.
I have an ar-15 (that the govmt has labeled an assault weapon even though it is a semi automatic) I use it to hunt with and it does me good.
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07/24/2015 09:00:29 AM · #344 |
| we really need to reign in the corporate lobbies in the USA. |
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07/24/2015 09:34:04 AM · #345 |
A couple of years old but still valid ...
Out of curiosity, What kind of animal does one hunt with an AR-15?
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have an ar-15 (that the govmt has labeled an assault weapon even though it is a semi automatic) I use it to hunt with and it does me good. |
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07/24/2015 10:06:16 AM · #346 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
That's an old article...There is on statement in it that kindof irks me
One of the most interesting aspects of all is how an association for sportsmen became the prime defenders of assault weaponry.
I have an ar-15 (that the govmt has labeled an assault weapon even though it is a semi automatic) I use it to hunt with and it does me good. |
If you lived in this country, you would be hard pressed to own one since it is a "Controlled Good" and the US government frowns on these being sold to persons outside of the USA.
Interesting eh?
Ray |
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07/24/2015 10:09:06 AM · #347 |
| i have a family member that just acquired one. illegally i might add, they are trying to figure out how to register it legally, so there is that. |
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07/24/2015 10:38:23 AM · #348 |
Originally posted by Luciemac:
Too many 'Muricans enjoy killing for sport, find their courage and self-worth in guns, resist regulation or background checks as threatening their manhood and overreach by gummint. Excuses are made, silly rhetoric and semantics take over the discussion rather than talk about finding solutions. "Protection" has so little to do with gun ownership, it's barely worth mentioning.
Even Obama has become part of this thread. HE is the problem, subverting the constitution in order to grab yer gunz.....how many of yours has he confiscated so far?
This very long and contentious thread, and especially the defensiveness from you hard-core types bears out what I said above and it should make you happy that most of the country is on your side. As long as the bullshit continues, the hatred for government, your ignorance of the constitution, and your lust for gun violence, nothing will ever change. Every tragedy underscores the fact that you're winning your bloody battle. Congratulations.
What has to happen for you to change your mind? If Sandy Hook, Aurora, Charlston, or..or.....didn't do it for you, what will? Nuthin'? I get it, Bubba. |
Okay, you took offense to an older gentleman calling you "Dear lady" so knock it off with the Bubba garbage.
And we'll stipulate that you equate any and all gun owners with being bloodthirsty, one-eyebrowed, mouth-breathing, lower life forms.
But do you really think that we're happy about these tragedies? Seriously??? Why would you blame the entire gun owning populace with the actions of a few extremists? What makes you feel that you can paint an entire segment of the population with "the hatred for government, your ignorance of the constitution, and your lust for gun violence"?
I'm sorry, but you're just way out of line and no better than the type of person you attempt to paint us as. And it's tiring.
I'm certainly not that type of person, I know Ray isn't, Brennan isn't, and Adam? Well, he's trained by our military, and he has answered a call to duty, willingly, to defend your right to abuse us verbally without knowing one damn thing about us. So temper your tongue a little if you want to discuss this.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Still waiting for an answer as to your solution to the problem.
Since you're so vehement in your objections, surely you have a solution. |
Originally posted by Luciemac:
I don't know if there IS a good solution. |
Well, then how about some suggestions, ideas, or even random thoughts on what type of steps that can be taken to move in a constructive forward direction.
That would be such a welcome change from someone obviously so superior to the rest of us.
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07/24/2015 11:27:13 AM · #349 |
Originally posted by tate:
A couple of years old but still valid ...
Out of curiosity, What kind of animal does one hunt with an AR-15?
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have an ar-15 (that the govmt has labeled an assault weapon even though it is a semi automatic) I use it to hunt with and it does me good. |
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Well actually I have brought down deer with my AR. I use match grade ammo...It packs a punch. It is illegal to shoot a rim fire bullet at larger game (like deer) the ar is centerfire.
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07/24/2015 12:33:51 PM · #350 |
| Blurring the lines of trust - please don't protect me. Geez, they just can't wait for the zombie apocalypse? |
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