| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/27/2015 07:46:54 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Cory:
I think that anytime they do something we'd usually have been better off if they had done nothing. |
everyday i wish i lived in that world, where the government didn't regulate anything. :/ |
Should have noted that this only applies since the Clinton era.. And there have been a few good new laws passed, but the vast majority seem to have some terrible flaw. |
Such as? Cory, please name and credibly source a few of the "majority" which "have some terrible flaw". Don't forget to name the flaws! |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 07:32:17 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Cory:
I think that anytime they do something we'd usually have been better off if they had done nothing. |
everyday i wish i lived in that world, where the government didn't regulate anything. :/ |
Should have noted that this only applies since the Clinton era.. And there have been a few good new laws passed, but the vast majority seem to have some terrible flaw. |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 05:37:49 PM · #3 |
"I think that anytime they do something we'd usually have been better off if they had done nothing. "
Gosh, me too. Like when they made it a law that you couldn't drink and drive. Or, sell food that was contaminated. Or, get onto an airliner with a handgun. Or, pipe polluted water into your house. Or, let your kid grow up without going to school. Or, let you yell fire in a crowded theater. Or, allow nursing homes to abuse your elderly mom. Or, lock your kid in a hot car. Or, drag your dog behind your truck. Or, cheat Medicare. Shall I go on? Doh. |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 02:54:35 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I think that anytime they do something we'd usually have been better off if they had done nothing. |
everyday i wish i lived in that world, where the government didn't regulate anything. :/
|
|
|
|
08/27/2015 02:44:23 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Cory:
And on those points we are in total agreement. As I've said elsewhere, this government can't seem to do much of anything right, even when it's a problem that should be fairly easy to solve, this problem is anything but easy, so my expectation lies heavily in the "screw it up" category. |
so because you think the government is inept we shouldn't do anything, that makes perfect sense.
actually i think allowing our fucked up government to write a 1500 page incoherent bill to explain who can own a gun and how is the perfect solution :) |
I think that anytime they do something we'd usually have been better off if they had done nothing. That isn't to say doing nothing is better than doing the right thing, just that the right thing doesn't really seem to be a viable option most of the time here. |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 01:55:33 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Cory:
And on those points we are in total agreement. As I've said elsewhere, this government can't seem to do much of anything right, even when it's a problem that should be fairly easy to solve, this problem is anything but easy, so my expectation lies heavily in the "screw it up" category. |
so because you think the government is inept we shouldn't do anything, that makes perfect sense.
actually i think allowing our fucked up government to write a 1500 page incoherent bill to explain who can own a gun and how is the perfect solution :)
|
|
|
|
08/27/2015 01:31:21 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
Even when we are talking about DUI, I'm not sure that a hundred people in jail for a year is any better than one dead person. Seems the cost of the solution might be argued to be higher than the cost of the problem. |
I think the dead person would disagree ... |
But would the 100 incarcerated? Really I'm looking at this more from an economic standpoint anyway, the cost of the deaths, to society, is probably at best equivalent to the cost of enforcement and incarceration.
Frankly, I just wish people could control themselves. |
If we look at issues such as this solely from an economic perspective, then best that we get rid of all law enforcement personnel, the court system and the methods we use to incarcerate people.
|
Really don't think that would be the case at all, chaos and anarchy are VERY bad for business, there are some costs of this sort that are totally reasonable, but just like the mass incarceration of drug users, which is a FOR SURE bad deal, this seems likely to have a higher price tag than that which is obvious at first glance. The point really is that we seem to have a history of optimism and a blindness to the actual historical success/failure rates of these great ideas.
Originally posted by Cory:
I have no idea as to whether or not you have any experience relative to the costs associated with court cases, but can assure you that I do... oodles of it. A recent court case that I dealt with cost the taxpayers something close to 100K and the ensuing results were less than a year of confinement to be served at home.
|
I do in fact, and you're only helping to prove my point here.
Originally posted by Cory:
When we factor in the rights of the accused, charter of rights consideration, defence strategies, the fact that we provide free legal representation to those who cannot afford it, and a variety of other factors, one has to admit that criminal law is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination and the efficiency of same is on occasion, questionable at best.
It would most definitely be nice if people could control themselves, but for those who simply can't you have to have standards in place to at least attempt to minimize the probability of occurrence.
Sadly, the sheer number of available guns in the USA makes this a rather onerous task.
Ray |
And on those points we are in total agreement. As I've said elsewhere, this government can't seem to do much of anything right, even when it's a problem that should be fairly easy to solve, this problem is anything but easy, so my expectation lies heavily in the "screw it up" category. |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 12:43:40 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
Even when we are talking about DUI, I'm not sure that a hundred people in jail for a year is any better than one dead person. Seems the cost of the solution might be argued to be higher than the cost of the problem. |
I think the dead person would disagree ... |
But would the 100 incarcerated? Really I'm looking at this more from an economic standpoint anyway, the cost of the deaths, to society, is probably at best equivalent to the cost of enforcement and incarceration.
Frankly, I just wish people could control themselves. |
If we look at issues such as this solely from an economic perspective, then best that we get rid of all law enforcement personnel, the court system and the methods we use to incarcerate people.
I have no idea as to whether or not you have any experience relative to the costs associated with court cases, but can assure you that I do... oodles of it. A recent court case that I dealt with cost the taxpayers something close to 100K and the ensuing results were less than a year of confinement to be served at home.
When we factor in the rights of the accused, charter of rights consideration, defence strategies, the fact that we provide free legal representation to those who cannot afford it, and a variety of other factors, one has to admit that criminal law is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination and the efficiency of same is on occasion, questionable at best.
It would most definitely be nice if people could control themselves, but for those who simply can't you have to have standards in place to at least attempt to minimize the probability of occurrence.
Sadly, the sheer number of available guns in the USA makes this a rather onerous task.
Ray |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 08:03:46 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
Even when we are talking about DUI, I'm not sure that a hundred people in jail for a year is any better than one dead person. Seems the cost of the solution might be argued to be higher than the cost of the problem. |
I think the dead person would disagree ... |
But would the 100 incarcerated? Really I'm looking at this more from an economic standpoint anyway, the cost of the deaths, to society, is probably at best equivalent to the cost of enforcement and incarceration.
Frankly, I just wish people could control themselves.
Message edited by author 2015-08-27 08:04:19. |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 08:00:04 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Even when we are talking about DUI, I'm not sure that a hundred people in jail for a year is any better than one dead person. Seems the cost of the solution might be argued to be higher than the cost of the problem. |
I think the dead person would disagree ... |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 07:58:09 AM · #11 |
| Even when we are talking about DUI, I'm not sure that a hundred people in jail for a year is any better than one dead person. Seems the cost of the solution might be argued to be higher than the cost of the problem. |
|
|
|
08/27/2015 07:02:53 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
There's no sense to this sort of thing, let alone sense of the common type. Nothing can stop it. Deranged people on a mission will find a way to carry out that mission.
I just liked the nifty parallel to the thread title. Legal gun saves; legal gun kills. All depends on how you use the tools, folks. Remember the German co-pilot?
Vendettas? Revenge? Just plain nuts? Get a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an airplane. Just make sure you post or fax your manifesto and film your exploits for maximum effect!
Basically, I hate people. As a race, we kinda suck. I don't hold out much hope.
But no, not a darn thing to do to stop it. Laws mean absolutely nothing to those who are going to break them anyway. (I have a friend who points out that laws against "impaired" driving are worthless if you can lawyer up.) |
I can't speak for where you live, but in these parts one is apt to face some very harsh financial penalties, lose their vehicles or have a breathalyzer mechanism installed on their vehicle that would negate any possibility of using that vehicle after consuming a few drinks. There are also mandatory courses one has to attend if convicted.
Couple all of those things with a heightened level of vigilance by our various police forces and and educational program offered by a variety of groups and the advertising by MADD and yes we have seen some dramatic decreases in the levels of impaired driving cases.
Does it stop all instances of drunk driving... definitely not, but not unlike advances in the medical field, there has been a noticeable advancement.
We cannot hope to totally eradicate the problem, but we surely can and should strive to minimize the possibilities of similar events in the future.
Ray |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 09:32:37 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Honestly, after considering this for a few, the answer is simple: Because what you propose is an irreversible act, if it doesn't help, then we're just worse off. So I don't think a 10% chance of improvement or an improvement of 10% is sufficient for me to support the proposal. |
10,000+ gun deaths a year is an irreversiable act. Gun control laws are totally reversible: your whole claim to ownership is an amendment!
Also note that even a ridiculously low bar like 10% improvement represents more American lives saved every 3 months than have been lost to Islamic terrorists worldwide since 9/11.
Message edited by author 2015-08-26 21:39:09. |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 09:14:43 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I'd be happy with less than 100%, the question really is, how much less would YOU be happy with? |
I'd be satisfied with whatever can be attained with "reasonable measures" taken ... of course, since NRA pressure has stopped most research, we don't know exactly what that might be.
Once we know (find out) and agree on what "works" we should apply it at least relatively uniformly nationwide.
There should be several viable options between "government confiscates all guns" and "anyone with cash can buy a gun" ... |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 08:46:58 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
I'd just like to know what laws will stop the mentally ill / troubled people from successfully buying guns- |
Requiring that all sales pass through a licensed dealer with access to background check technology could stop a substantial number. Oh, and mandatory jail time for violators ...
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If medicine operated this way we could save enormous sums by not treating cancer patients alone ... |
Nothing is 100%. All shades of gray ... |
Convince Cory ... |
I'd be happy with less than 100%, the question really is, how much less would YOU be happy with? |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 08:38:54 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I'd just like to know what laws will stop the mentally ill / troubled people from successfully buying guns- |
Requiring that all sales pass through a licensed dealer with access to background check technology could stop a substantial number. Oh, and mandatory jail time for violators ...
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If medicine operated this way we could save enormous sums by not treating cancer patients alone ... |
Nothing is 100%. All shades of gray ... |
Convince Cory ...
Message edited by author 2015-08-26 20:39:19. |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 08:19:45 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If medicine operated this way we could save enormous sums by not treating cancer patients alone ... |
There are times when that SHOULD be the option. Not all cancer patients can be cured or have their lives meaningfully extended. Nothing is 100%. All shades of gray, and not in that creepy slimy poorly-written fanfiction kind of way.
Message edited by author 2015-08-26 20:19:58. |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 08:14:14 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
This happened 20 miles from my house at a place my family and I have visited multiple times. It is an extremely quiet and peaceful community. Very sad indeed. Say what you want about guns and the laws but it is obvious that it is much too easy for mentally ill and troubled people to legally purchase guns. Just go the the local flea market every Saturday and you can have your pick just like that: |
I actually agree with this. -I'd just like to know what laws will stop the mentally ill / troubled people from successfully buying guns- |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 08:08:58 PM · #19 |
| This happened 20 miles from my house at a place my family and I have visited multiple times. It is an extremely quiet and peaceful community. Very sad indeed. Say what you want about guns and the laws but it is obvious that it is much too easy for mentally ill and troubled people to legally purchase guns. Just go the the local flea market every Saturday and you can have your pick just like that: |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 07:59:22 PM · #20 |
| No, I'm merely pointing out that your "fix it 100% or status quo" position allows for no amelioration of the problem. It is an example of "the perfect being the enemy of the good" syndrome ... |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 07:52:07 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Melethia:
There's no sense to this sort of thing, let alone sense of the common type. Nothing can stop it. Deranged people on a mission will find a way to carry out that mission.
I just liked the nifty parallel to the thread title. Legal gun saves; legal gun kills. All depends on how you use the tools, folks. Remember the German co-pilot?
Vendettas? Revenge? Just plain nuts? Get a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an airplane. Just make sure you post or fax your manifesto and film your exploits for maximum effect!
Basically, I hate people. As a race, we kinda suck. I don't hold out much hope.
But no, not a darn thing to do to stop it. Laws mean absolutely nothing to those who are going to break them anyway. (I have a friend who points out that laws against "impaired" driving are worthless if you can lawyer up.) |
I agree with everything she said. Horrible world we live in folks, don't know if there's any band-aid that can fix it. |
If medicine operated this way we could save enormous sums by not treating cancer patients alone ... |
If our species had common sense and was able to remain emotionally neutral we'd put all the effort into saving those who are likely to be saved, and ease the passing of those who are going to waste huge sums of money for a virtually unavoidable outcome. And as a bonus, the low-probability patients get to endure a painful and often humiliating treatment process, and then die a slow painful death.
If you're now arguing that our modern medical practices with the terminally ill are optimum, or even not completely crazy, I'd have to strongly disagree.
Message edited by author 2015-08-26 19:53:52. |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 07:43:55 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Melethia:
There's no sense to this sort of thing, let alone sense of the common type. Nothing can stop it. Deranged people on a mission will find a way to carry out that mission.
I just liked the nifty parallel to the thread title. Legal gun saves; legal gun kills. All depends on how you use the tools, folks. Remember the German co-pilot?
Vendettas? Revenge? Just plain nuts? Get a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an airplane. Just make sure you post or fax your manifesto and film your exploits for maximum effect!
Basically, I hate people. As a race, we kinda suck. I don't hold out much hope.
But no, not a darn thing to do to stop it. Laws mean absolutely nothing to those who are going to break them anyway. (I have a friend who points out that laws against "impaired" driving are worthless if you can lawyer up.) |
I agree with everything she said. Horrible world we live in folks, don't know if there's any band-aid that can fix it. |
If medicine operated this way we could save enormous sums by not treating cancer patients alone ... |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 07:38:29 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
There's no sense to this sort of thing, let alone sense of the common type. Nothing can stop it. Deranged people on a mission will find a way to carry out that mission.
I just liked the nifty parallel to the thread title. Legal gun saves; legal gun kills. All depends on how you use the tools, folks. Remember the German co-pilot?
Vendettas? Revenge? Just plain nuts? Get a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an airplane. Just make sure you post or fax your manifesto and film your exploits for maximum effect!
Basically, I hate people. As a race, we kinda suck. I don't hold out much hope.
But no, not a darn thing to do to stop it. Laws mean absolutely nothing to those who are going to break them anyway. (I have a friend who points out that laws against "impaired" driving are worthless if you can lawyer up.) |
I agree with everything she said. Horrible world we live in folks, don't know if there's any band-aid that can fix it. |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 07:36:58 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
And I'll call out the same hypocrisy as I did in the other thread. Why are you singing the praises of defensive gun ownership that wouldn't have prevented this from happening while demanding evidence of gun laws that would? If gun control laws prevented 90% of gun violence, but not this particular case, what would that prove? |
Honestly, after considering this for a few, the answer is simple: Because what you propose is an irreversible act, if it doesn't help, then we're just worse off. So I don't think a 10% chance of improvement or an improvement of 10% is sufficient for me to support the proposal.
Owning a gun isn't an irreversible act, and because of that the 10% improvement in odds is sufficient for me.
--
Do you really think they'd prevent 90% of the violence that is currently committed with guns? Mind you, I'm not asking if you think it will reduce gun crime by 90%, but rather, will it stop 90% of the crimes that would have been committed with a gun? |
|
|
|
08/26/2015 07:11:10 PM · #25 |
There's no sense to this sort of thing, let alone sense of the common type. Nothing can stop it. Deranged people on a mission will find a way to carry out that mission.
I just liked the nifty parallel to the thread title. Legal gun saves; legal gun kills. All depends on how you use the tools, folks. Remember the German co-pilot?
Vendettas? Revenge? Just plain nuts? Get a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an airplane. Just make sure you post or fax your manifesto and film your exploits for maximum effect!
Basically, I hate people. As a race, we kinda suck. I don't hold out much hope.
But no, not a darn thing to do to stop it. Laws mean absolutely nothing to those who are going to break them anyway. (I have a friend who points out that laws against "impaired" driving are worthless if you can lawyer up.)
Message edited by author 2015-08-26 19:11:22. |
|
