CNN correspondant saved by a legal gun.

07/21/2015 09:10:55 AM · #226

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

2. There must be probable cause to believe that the vehicle has contraband or some other evidence of criminality, and

The problem with probable cause..... This is VERY loosely defined.

ok we've gotten off topic a bit. It seems that a few states are taking the initiative and arming the National Guard at recruiting facilities in the wake of that terrorist attack in Tennessee.

In Farmington NM there is a citizen stationed outside the offices with an AR15.

07/21/2015 09:20:24 AM · #227

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

i have no problem with this.

there is a big difference in my book between the government arming up arming against a real military/terrorist homeland threat and having the population arming themselves over their own bias and fears.

Message edited by author 2015-07-21 09:20:53.

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

07/21/2015 10:01:02 AM · #228

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

2. There must be probable cause to believe that the vehicle has contraband or some other evidence of criminality, and

The problem with probable cause..... This is VERY loosely defined.

ok we've gotten off topic a bit. It seems that a few states are taking the initiative and arming the National Guard at recruiting facilities in the wake of that terrorist attack in Tennessee.

In Farmington NM there is a citizen stationed outside the offices with an AR15.

That's disturbing.

klkitchens

Pentax K-1

Pentax FA 50mm f/1.4 AF

07/21/2015 10:07:44 AM · #229

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I just heard a really good quote that is very true.

Guns are a lot like parachutes, if you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again

There is another one "Minds are like parachutes; they work best when open."

Or best: "It's better to have open eyes than an open mind."

klkitchens

Pentax K-1

Pentax FA 50mm f/1.4 AF

07/21/2015 10:08:35 AM · #230

Originally posted by bohemka:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

2. There must be probable cause to believe that the vehicle has contraband or some other evidence of criminality, and

The problem with probable cause..... This is VERY loosely defined.

ok we've gotten off topic a bit. It seems that a few states are taking the initiative and arming the National Guard at recruiting facilities in the wake of that terrorist attack in Tennessee.

In Farmington NM there is a citizen stationed outside the offices with an AR15.

That's disturbing.

Not at all. He's legally doing something. He has a right carry the gun. It's not concealed. And he's defended our soldiers, something the current occupant of the White House refuses to do.

07/21/2015 10:11:23 AM · #231

Originally posted by klkitchens:

Or best: "It's better to have open eyes than an open mind."

applying for a for the clergy are we?

07/21/2015 10:12:40 AM · #232

Originally posted by klkitchens:

Not at all. He's legally doing something. He has a right carry the gun. It's not concealed. And he's defended our soldiers, something the current occupant of the White House refuses to do.

its not his job to protect the military, especially from problems they created.

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

07/21/2015 10:28:55 AM · #233

Originally posted by klkitchens:

Originally posted by bohemka:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

2. There must be probable cause to believe that the vehicle has contraband or some other evidence of criminality, and

The problem with probable cause..... This is VERY loosely defined.

ok we've gotten off topic a bit. It seems that a few states are taking the initiative and arming the National Guard at recruiting facilities in the wake of that terrorist attack in Tennessee.

In Farmington NM there is a citizen stationed outside the offices with an AR15.

That's disturbing.

Not at all. He's legally doing something. He has a right carry the gun. It's not concealed. And he's defended our soldiers, something the current occupant of the White House refuses to do.

This has zero to do with politics, but it certainly seems like it's one entire bucket vs. the other, so I guess that's expected. I cannot imagine it's legal for an ordinary citizen to carry a weapon and take a position on anything other than their own private land.

07/21/2015 11:33:14 AM · #234

Originally posted by klkitchens:

Not at all. He's legally doing something. He has a right carry the gun. It's not concealed. And he's defended our soldiers, something the current occupant of the White House refuses to do.

You might want to go back and check exactly who it was that came out with the rules that military personnel were not allowed to carry weapons on base.

I would wager that it is not the current POTUS.

Just saying,

Ray

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

07/21/2015 11:37:05 AM · #235

Originally posted by klkitchens:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I just heard a really good quote that is very true.

Guns are a lot like parachutes, if you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again

There is another one "Minds are like parachutes; they work best when open."

Or best: "It's better to have open eyes than an open mind."

Sadly, there are some who, even with eyes wide open, cannot even to begin to comprehend exactly what it is that they are witnessing.

The following quote comes to mind: "There are none so blind as those who will not see".

Ray

cowboy221977

Canon EOS-60D

07/21/2015 11:48:15 AM · #236

Ray

You are right the no weapons on base policy goes back (I think) to around the Vietnam era. I'm just going off memory...Nothing to back that up with.

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

07/21/2015 12:01:57 PM · #237

"The ban is largely due to legal issues, such as the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which prohibits the federal government from using the military for domestic law enforcement." From this.

Other interesting snippet: "I think we have to be careful about over-arming ourselves, and I'm not talking about where you end up attacking each other," Gen. Ray Odierno, chief of staff of the Army, told reporters. Instead, he said, it's more about "accidental discharges and everything else that goes along with having weapons that are loaded that causes injuries."

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

07/21/2015 12:21:04 PM · #238

Originally posted by bohemka:

I cannot imagine it's legal for an ordinary citizen to carry a weapon and take a position on anything other than their own private land.

Are you actually this amazingly ignorant of the law?

cowboy221977

Canon EOS-60D

07/21/2015 12:27:39 PM · #239

Cory some people just don't know the law. Louisiana is under the castle law. At one time this meant if you shot and killed an intruder the individual had to be inside the house. That then got expanded to your property and then expanded again to include your car. (All of this with no permit)

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

07/21/2015 12:29:01 PM · #240

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by bohemka:
I cannot imagine it's legal for an ordinary citizen to carry a weapon and take a position on anything other than their own private land.

Are you actually this amazingly ignorant of the law?

So you're telling me it's legal for an ordinary citizen to take a weapon to a strip mall and, uninvited, stand guard in front of a business or other establishment? Try that in front of a Starbucks or Apple Store and tell me how it goes.

07/21/2015 12:38:46 PM · #241

Originally posted by bohemka:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by bohemka:
I cannot imagine it's legal for an ordinary citizen to carry a weapon and take a position on anything other than their own private land.

Are you actually this amazingly ignorant of the law?

So you're telling me it's legal for an ordinary citizen to take a weapon to a strip mall and, uninvited, stand guard in front of a business or other establishment? Try that in front of a Starbucks or Apple Store and tell me how it goes.

Yes. And if Apple stores start getting shot up on a regular basis I'm not as certain as you seem to be that it would be unwelcome.

07/21/2015 12:54:44 PM · #242

Originally posted by Cory:

.

Yes. And if Apple stores start getting shot up on a regular basis I'm not as certain as you seem to be that it would be unwelcome.

... just how does one go about recognizing the real culprit if everyone has a weapon and are pointing it at someone? I shudder at the thought of a first responder arriving at a scene where everyone was armed... just who do you focus on first?

Not trying to be difficult my friend, but it's not like the bad guy has a sign identifying him.

Ray

07/21/2015 12:54:44 PM · #243

... hate it when these double posts things happen.

Message edited by author 2015-07-21 12:55:12.

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

07/21/2015 12:55:57 PM · #244

The recruitment centers don't own those properties, and even if they did the military is not about to openly condone armed nutters forming private militias on strip mall sidewalks. They're loitering, with weapons, with a stated cause, on private property that does not belong to them. The vast majority of business owners would view this accurately as a threat, and they'd be told to leave or arrested.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/21/2015 01:33:57 PM · #245

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Recent rulings and laws passed since the Martin case have expanded the Castle Doctrine to allowing chasing down a suspect and using deadly force as long as the person with the gun has a "reasonable fear of their own life". Where once the law said that self defense required retreating in the face of a threat, current law in most states holds that deadly force is justified if a person feels gravely threatened, in the home or "any other place where he or she has a right to be." To prosecute a shooter who invokes the Castle Doctrine, the prosecution must prove the state of the defendant's mind or emotional state, which is a tough position to prove in court, and one unique in American jurisprudence in that the defense hinges on state of mind rather than observable facts.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/21/2015 01:50:59 PM · #246

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Cory:
.

Yes. And if Apple stores start getting shot up on a regular basis I'm not as certain as you seem to be that it would be unwelcome.

... just how does one go about recognizing the real culprit if everyone has a weapon and are pointing it at someone? I shudder at the thought of a first responder arriving at a scene where everyone was armed... just who do you focus on first?

Not trying to be difficult my friend, but it's not like the bad guy has a sign identifying him.

Ray

Generally one would recognize the bad guy by his behavior, you know, like pointing the gun at the recruiting center, and subsequently firing. Not sure how that isn't obvious.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

07/21/2015 02:18:54 PM · #247

Originally posted by Cory:

Generally one would recognize the bad guy by his behavior, you know, like pointing the gun at the recruiting center, and subsequently firing. Not sure how that isn't obvious.

Really? Ask they guy who almost shot the the man who had wrestled the gun from the killer after the Giffords shooting in Pheonix. "Zamudio had released his safety and was poised to fire when he saw what he thought was the killer still holding his weapon. Zamudio had a split second to decide whether to shoot. He was sufficiently convinced of the killer's identity to shove the man into a wall. But Zamudio didn't use his gun. That's how close he came to killing an innocent man. He was, as he acknowledges, 'very lucky.'"

Ask any cop who arrives at a call where there has been gunfire and has to make a split second decision about which armed person at the scene, who is not in uniform and does not have a badge, is a threat and who is not. They are not trained to wait for suspects to shoot someone to show they are the bad guy. Anyone with a gun increases the threat matrix. Look at the number of children who have been shot by police while carrying realistic toy guns in the last few years and tell me you really think under stressful situations that it is easy to recognize who is and is not a threat. Tell me that untrained citizens are going to react more carefully than police, who don't have an easy time in life or death situations reacting properly to the presence of any weapon.

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

07/21/2015 02:37:34 PM · #248

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Tell me that untrained citizens are going to react more carefully than police, who don't have an easy time in life or death situations reacting properly to the presence of any weapon.

or a predisposed bias toward race or religion and possibly a hero complex.

Message edited by author 2015-07-21 14:37:44.

cowboy221977

Canon EOS-60D

07/21/2015 02:45:00 PM · #249

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Cory some people just don't know the law. Louisiana is under the castle law. At one time this meant if you shot and killed an intruder the individual had to be inside the house. That then got expanded to your property and then expanded again to include your car. (All of this with no permit)

Recent rulings and laws passed since the Martin case have expanded the Castle Doctrine to allowing chasing down a suspect and using deadly force as long as the person with the gun has a "reasonable fear of their own life". Where once the law said that self defense required retreating in the face of a threat, current law in most states holds that deadly force is justified if a person feels gravely threatened, in the home or "any other place where he or she has a right to be." To prosecute a shooter who invokes the Castle Doctrine, the prosecution must prove the state of the defendant's mind or emotional state, which is a tough position to prove in court, and one unique in American jurisprudence in that the defense hinges on state of mind rather than observable facts.

You have to prove within reasonable doubt that you are acting in self defense....Chasing someone down as you put it is not self defense unless he is running to harm someone else...ie a family member.