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04/03/2015 06:27:59 PM · #26 |
Jeb, we will just have to disagree.
Yes, I am being judgmental and when I see an "average vote cast" of 4 or below I judge that person to be unfair and not playing by the rules.
I could care less about motivation. I see it as cynical and detrimental to the health of the site, period.
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04/03/2015 06:51:39 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
So, to Jane's point, if that's what you're doing, why not just leave of your own accord? I don't think anyone is saying that they shouldn't be allowed here. |
Her original post was pretty harsh. I didn't write it, and I surely disagree with someone publicly bashing another user without all the facts. Especially with the character assassination thrown in. But that's just my opinion.
Originally posted by MeMex:
I am so sick of people who consistently vote low scores. Anyone with an "average vote cast" of 4 and below should leave the site and seek treatment. The negativity is really off putting. |
I'm kind of surprised at the support, the general tarring, and that you don't want to allow that just possibly you don't have all the info that you really need to legitimately need to try to justify this kind of judgementalism.
That's fine......you guys want to decide that there's some sick and mean puppy out there whose sole purpose is to be as pissy as possible, go right ahead. I'm just glad I don't live in your world.......talk about negativity!!!
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
That said, if someone has 10,000 votes with an average of 4 and below, and comments on fewer than 1% of their votes then I would hope the SC would look into it. |
Well, again......I hate to point it out to you, but 1. There is *NO* requirement for leaving a comment for any vote. 2. If this voter is consistent with his/her votes, he/she is *NOT* violating the TOS.
So why is it that SC should look into it?
I can tell you one thing......though I may not agree with someone else's voting and commenting system, that's their business and their right. I certainly do hope y'all that are on this soapbox are squeaky clean in your approach to same.
Just for giggles, I looked up some stats....
Jane's Vote/Comment ratio: 1 comment per 17.5 votes
Your Vote/Comment ratio: 1 comment per 7.6 votes
My Vote/Comment ratio: 1 comment per 2.3 votes
Jane's Average Vote Cast:5.6631
Your Average Vote Cast:5.4032
My Average Vote Cast:6.0278
I feel that I vote too high and that I don't comment enough. But that's MY opinion of MY performance. So I task myself with sharpening up my system a little.....comment more and examine my voting a little more closely. You gonna burn me at the stake if I decide to vote more harshly?
Oh, wait! I vote basically a full half point over what you guys do. And Jake......your Average Vote Cast.....why, isn't that actually BELOW AVERAGE????
Maybe SC should look into that! (Insert LARGE smiley face emoticon here to indicate that yes, I am being super-pedantic.)
ETA:I'm kind of surprised, to tell you the truth, 'cause I like both you guys. You both generally seem pleasant & reasonable. Especially your detailed travails with the wacko parent, Jake. I guess I'm just not so sure what and why you guys seem tyo be so upset about what is a truly minor aggravation relative to the big picture here. Good luck.....I am happy to agree to disagree from this point, but will still be happy to read any further input.
Message edited by author 2015-04-03 18:56:19.
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04/03/2015 08:09:37 PM · #28 |
I am doomed. My ratio of comments to votes is 0.002808.
I have some serious catching up to do.
Ray |
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04/03/2015 08:38:17 PM · #29 |
This persons low voting tendencies not only affect us all equally it is insignificant.
You are all riled up over nothing. There are plenty of things to get up in arms over in this world. This isn't one of them. |
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04/04/2015 03:59:43 PM · #30 |
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Message edited by author 2015-04-05 01:58:44. |
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04/04/2015 05:47:38 PM · #31 |
Hmmm... this is interesting to read.
Spurred me to figure out my own stats.
After 7.5 years and 790 entries, my average vote cast is: 5.96 and I comment on one of every 3.23 votes cast.
Interesting.
Carry on, folks.
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04/05/2015 11:20:13 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by ubique:
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Darn shame you edited that.....
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04/06/2015 06:10:17 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by ubique:
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Darn shame you edited that..... |
Jeb, I removed my post because it was not relevant for most DPC members.
(The post was just some blathering about my own eccentric voting philosophy and methodology).
In view of the current challenge in which I'm cast as the perp rather than an idle bystander, I thought on reflection the post was counter-productive.
Normally my views don't matter and can be profitably ignored, but in this one challenge I have an obligation to behave. Prefacing my voting and commenting with an arguably prejudicial forum post was bad form.
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04/06/2015 08:41:46 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by ubique:
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Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Darn shame you edited that..... |
Originally posted by ubique:
Jeb, I removed my post because it was not relevant for most DPC members.in this one challenge I have an obligation to behave.
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Oh, if you MUST!!! 8~)
Message edited by author 2015-04-06 08:42:09.
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04/06/2015 01:06:31 PM · #35 |
Since we're in rant mode it bugs me when people don't vote.
If you don't have the time I get it. BUT if you view all the images and comment on a bunch is it too hard to pick a number?
It doesn't matter if you have a horse in the race or not.
It's important to vote, if everyone stopped voting then this place is nothing more than flickr.
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04/06/2015 01:17:16 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by nygold:
Since we're in rant mode it bugs me when people don't vote.
If you don't have the time I get it. BUT if you view all the images and comment on a bunch is it too hard to pick a number?
It doesn't matter if you have a horse in the race or not.
It's important to vote, if everyone stopped voting then this place is nothing more than flickr. |
Quite agree with you! I don't enter many challenges, but I do vote. It irks me a lot when I see people entering and not voting. They expect others to vote on their images, but aren't willing to do it themselves. |
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04/06/2015 02:22:12 PM · #37 |
| I've been guilty of that for the past few weeks but plan to start voting again. My goal for the year is to enter 100% of the challenges whether I'm inspired by the topic or not, and vote when I'm not too busy with work/family/home repairs/etc |
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04/06/2015 11:35:11 PM · #38 |
I am sorry if my rant was too rabid and crazed. I really wasn̢۪t reacting to my scores, they are pretty predictable and I really do not attach to them.
What i was reacting to was a friend who is new to photography and joined DP at my suggestion and then wound up submitting several
photographs without one comment and with scores below 5. She decided that it was not the right ‘fit’ for her and I really cannot blame her.
I cannot imagine how new people survive with the condition the site is now in.
When I submitted my first awful shot 5 years ago, someone (Paul) took the time to give me a thoughtful critique and some really good advise and I was hooked
and certain that this was a place where I would be able to learn, and I have. Things have changed and really not in a good way. I am at fault
for not commenting enough and I am trying to change that. I got into the habit of voting on every challenge and on every image but my comments
are sporadic and I am afraid to criticize someone for what I consider ordinary or repetitious work or poor taste or over processing or whatever I
think is wrong. I am going to change that and take the chance and hope that someone is helped by my judgment. If I get angry pm̢۪s I̢۪ll deal with
it.
I am not a crusader and I know that ranting is not going to make a difference. I really love DP and would miss it if it were not around.
Someone said that in order to change things you have to work on yourself and I really think that is true.
I am sorry guys if I was a bully.
Jane |
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04/07/2015 07:49:45 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
I am sorry if my rant was too rabid and crazed. I really wasn̢۪t reacting to my scores, they are pretty predictable and I really do not attach to them.
What i was reacting to was a friend who is new to photography and joined DP at my suggestion and then wound up submitting several
photographs without one comment and with scores below 5. She decided that it was not the right ‘fit’ for her and I really cannot blame her.
I cannot imagine how new people survive with the condition the site is now in.
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Did she even try to acclimate herself into the continuity or ask for critique on her images? The community does attempt to accept everyone but if it didn't even know she was here... |
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04/07/2015 10:47:42 AM · #40 |
no Mike, she didn't make her self known but I have had friends who have and are no longer here. The point I am trying to make is that if we are not
commenting, and are not voting fairly, there isn't a reason to be here. I include myself as a problem and I am trying to change that.
That's all. |
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04/07/2015 01:24:28 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
... and are not voting fairly, there isn't a reason to be here. |
Since votes are a reflection of one's views relative to a specific image, I amm of the opinion that all of these are "Fair" votes.
Individually we may not care for the score meted out, but that is not the crux of the issue here.
Consistent voting by someone, even at the lower echelons is indeed fair.
Ray |
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04/07/2015 01:33:50 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by MeMex2:
... and are not voting fairly, there isn't a reason to be here. |
Since votes are a reflection of one's views relative to a specific image, I amm of the opinion that all of these are "Fair" votes.
Individually we may not care for the score meted out, but that is not the crux of the issue here.
Consistent voting by someone, even at the lower echelons is indeed fair.
Ray |
Voting on a scale of 1-5 while entering and having others vote on one's own image using the scale of 1-10 is effectively advantaging one's own image. It may not have much impact, but I wouldn't call that fair... |
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04/07/2015 07:22:34 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Paul:
Voting on a scale of 1-5 while entering and having others vote on one's own image using the scale of 1-10 is effectively advantaging one's own image. It may not have much impact, but I wouldn't call that fair... |
We talked about this several years ago in some voting statistics threads. Trying to improve your score by strategic voting is a futile exercise. The impact of one person voting consistently low has a miniscule effect on the results of a challenge. We showed this through simulation a few posts down in this thread.
Link
Even IF one person could affect the overall average they would have no control of the votes that they receive. It̢۪s futile and really this age-old complaint is much ado about nothing.
The 1-5 voter has no more impact on fairness than the 6-10 voters do and the statistics have proved time and again that they balance one another.
Link
The safeguards that are in place to detect truly unfair voting are very strong on this site. |
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04/07/2015 07:55:04 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
It̢۪s futile and really this age-old complaint is much ado about nothing.
The 1-5 voter has no more impact on fairness than the 6-10 voters do and the statistics have proved time and again that they balance one another.
Link
The safeguards that are in place to detect truly unfair voting are very strong on this site. |
Thanks for that, DJ. Speaking of which, I think I just "balanced out" a lot of "unfair" low votes with my genially high votes in the Ubique challenge. |
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04/08/2015 01:07:49 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by Paul:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by MeMex2:
... and are not voting fairly, there isn't a reason to be here. |
Since votes are a reflection of one's views relative to a specific image, I amm of the opinion that all of these are "Fair" votes.
Individually we may not care for the score meted out, but that is not the crux of the issue here.
Consistent voting by someone, even at the lower echelons is indeed fair.
Ray |
Voting on a scale of 1-5 while entering and having others vote on one's own image using the scale of 1-10 is effectively advantaging one's own image. It may not have much impact, but I wouldn't call that fair... |
Just how do you know that for a fact?
Ray |
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04/08/2015 01:59:20 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
The 1-5 voter has no more impact on fairness than the 6-10 voters do and the statistics have proved time and again that they balance one another. |
Yes, I am splitting hairs, but your analysis reflects a third party recipient of 'both' votes. The 1-5 voter excludes themselves from the very slight skewing effect of their own 1-5 voting pattern while receiving (the non-compensated) slightly skewing vote of a 6-10 voter. That's a mathematical fact. But Ray, whether people actually do it? (I presume that's what you meant) That's another matter.
Is it significant? Well it might be between say 1st and 2nd places (where individual votes above 5 are very plentiful). Take a first place image with a score of 7.3662 with 71 votes. Now let's say that the second place ribbon winner was a 1-5 voter (rather than a 1-10 voter who would vote 10 in this scenario). They really liked the image and gave it their top score of 5. That would depress the 1st place score to 7.2958. There is certainly enough room within those two scores to be place-changing.
I'm not talking about the overall effect on all voters (which I accept smoothes), I'm talking about the ability for 1-5 voters to exclude themselves from the skewing effect their own voting pattern while still being a recipient of the votes of those who vote with a higher top end (whether that be 1-10 or 6-10).
[edited to parse the quote properly]
Message edited by author 2015-04-08 10:27:50. |
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04/08/2015 09:11:56 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by Paul:
The 1-5 voter has no more impact on fairness than the 6-10 voters do and the statistics have proved time and again that they balance one another. |
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Originally posted by Paul:
Yes, I am splitting hairs, but your analysis reflects a third party recipient of 'both' votes. The 1-5 voter excludes themselves from the very slight skewing effect of their own 1-5 voting pattern while receiving (the non-compensated) slightly skewing vote of a 6-10 voter. That's a mathematical fact. But Ray, whether people actually do it? (I presume that's what you meant) That's another matter.
Is it significant? Well it might be between say 1st and 2nd places (where individual votes above 5 are very plentiful). Take a first place image with a score of 7.3662 with 71 votes. Now let's say that the second place ribbon winner was a 1-5 voter (rather than a 1-10 voter who would vote 10 in this scenario). They really liked the image and gave it their top score of 5. That would depress the 1st place score to 7.2958. There is certainly enough room within those two scores to be place-changing.
I'm not talking about the overall effect on all voters (which I accept smoothes), I'm talking about the ability for 1-5 voters to exclude themselves from the skewing effect their own voting pattern while still being a recipient of the votes of those who vote with a higher top end (whether that be 1-10 or 6-10). |
I would be willing to bet that there are quite a few people, and I include myself, that vote higher on images than average. Like we all know, 5.5 is average, yet I'm gonna round up to 6 on an average shot rather than round down. And I'd bet the farm that there way more of us than the low voters. I truly feel that the averages sort things out across the board. I understand the math behind the "unfainess" of a low voting scale, but I also know that us gentler voters help balance that out.......or perhaps......the low scale voters balance out us saps???
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04/08/2015 09:19:06 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Paul:
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
[quote=Paul]The 1-5 voter has no more impact on fairness than the 6-10 voters do and the statistics have proved time and again that they balance one another. |
Yes, I am splitting hairs, but your analysis reflects a third party recipient of 'both' votes. The 1-5 voter excludes themselves from the very slight skewing effect of their own 1-5 voting pattern while receiving (the non-compensated) slightly skewing vote of a 6-10 voter. That's a mathematical fact. But Ray, whether people actually do it? (I presume that's what you meant) That's another matter.
Is it significant? Well it might be between say 1st and 2nd places (where individual votes above 5 are very plentiful). Take a first place image with a score of 7.3662 with 71 votes. Now let's say that the second place ribbon winner was a 1-5 voter (rather than a 1-10 voter who would vote 10 in this scenario). They really liked the image and gave it their top score of 5. That would depress the 1st place score to 7.2958. There is certainly enough room within those two scores to be place-changing.
I'm not talking about the overall effect on all voters (which I accept smoothes), I'm talking about the ability for 1-5 voters to exclude themselves from the skewing effect their own voting pattern while still being a recipient of the votes of those who vote with a higher top end (whether that be 1-10 or 6-10). |
I know that on one challenge I came in third by a small amount. I also know that I voted on the 2nd place finisher, but that person didn't vote on mine. The 8 that I gave that person made the difference on the placement. Because I voted and they didn't, I came in 3rd and that person came in 2nd.
Yes, the difference was very slight. But every vote or not vote does make a difference.
I doesn't matter in the long run -- because this is not something of significance. It's a virtual ribbon "game". And the more people choose not to vote, the more they affect the outcome, because the other high and low votes start making a more noticeable difference. 9 hours into a challenge and only 5 votes on Fools. Significantly less than 100 votes on freestudy. When more people vote, individual votes count less and less. And you're not stuck with someones warped vision of how wonderful or how awful a particular photo is.
Message edited by author 2015-04-08 09:20:29. |
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04/08/2015 09:25:53 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
no Mike, she didn't make her self known but I have had friends who have and are no longer here. The point I am trying to make is that if we are not
commenting, and are not voting fairly, there isn't a reason to be here. I include myself as a problem and I am trying to change that.
That's all. |
That's a shame......we as a community generally try not to let that happen. Perhaps we could work on something amongst ourselves and come up with something where we could have a group or groups of members/users who are willing to help out, critique, guide, encourage, cajole........you know......MENTORS!!!
It has happened here before, officially & unofficially, but it seems to come & go. I believe that for the most part anyone in the community is willing to help out from explaining the work & thought behind one of their images all the way up through some more than willing to take on a full-fledged mentor role.
We have the talent here, we have the bodies......how can we set something up to make it work? Could we add a mentoring forum, or include mentoring requests as part of the welcome center forum or some such thing?
I'm certainly available for any help that my limited skills could provide.......my forte is actually perspective as to how to not get depressed about never being a world class photog! LOL!!!
Thoughts???
Message edited by author 2015-04-08 09:27:05.
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04/08/2015 12:43:59 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I know that on one challenge I came in third by a small amount. I also know that I voted on the 2nd place finisher, but that person didn't vote on mine. The 8 that I gave that person made the difference on the placement. Because I voted and they didn't, I came in 3rd and that person came in 2nd. |
I believe your first conclusion, but not your second. Once you voted 8 on that person's photo, the only way that person's vote would have made a positive difference is if s/he gave your photo a score higher than your photo's average score. |
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