Photo Request Dilemma - DPChallenge Forums

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Canon

09/21/2004 11:36:35 PM · #1

I'm in a pickle and not sure what I should do.

At the last motocross race (which it started raining as soon as racing started, so I couldn't shoot) there was a freelance writer there to do a piece for a Cycle News Rag.

His real job is an independant distributor for synthetic lubes. He sponsors some of the pro and about-to-go-pro riders and he works very closely with another track about an hour from me. He browsed my portfolio of motocross images and found one of a rider he's working to get sponsored. He asked me to send him the photo, removing proof from it but keeping my copyright in place. He wants to use it for a 'rider card' to hand out, on his web site (which is a 200x200 image) and on the web site of the company he distributes for. He's not offering any money, only photo credit in the form of my copyright on the image.

I want to get my images out there and hopefully get picked up by some other tracks, but I don't want to start a trend of giving my photos away.

What would you do?

Edit: This is the image he wants to use

Click for larger version

Message edited by author 2004-09-21 23:39:31.

wimbello

Canon EOS-10D

09/21/2004 11:39:39 PM · #2

Personally, I'd be happy with recognition on EVERY USE of the image. Not just at the bottom of the web-page somewhere, or a "Credits" page, but at the bottom of EVERY image.
If he starts wanting regular photo's from you, you know by then you're good enough to get PAID for it.

EDIT: It's not too much to ask for your name to be on it, seeing as you're not getting any money from him...

Message edited by author 2004-09-21 23:40:40.

graphicfunk

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/21/2004 11:56:12 PM · #3

Photo credit is good. just specify that the photo will not be reproduced elsewhere without your written consent.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

09/21/2004 11:59:36 PM · #4

I'd ask for your name as well as your website/email/phone# or some other contact info of your choice be included.

thatcloudthere

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

09/22/2004 12:02:06 AM · #5

Whoaaaaa...this question comes up every once in a while and I usually say 'just go for the credit' but we're talking about somebody who sponsors riders AND is a distributor of synthetic lube companies?

If it was me, I would do some research and ask for an appropriate sum...I don't think this is a giveaway shot, not this time!

My humble 2 cents (Canadian - 1 cent US)

Edit: I know of a similar situation in which an oil distributor/retailer sponsors a car and the oil company also sponsors the car directly to a small degree, just to get their logo on there as well. If this is the case, there's plenty of bucks floating around for your photo...

Message edited by author 2004-09-22 00:04:51.

cbeller

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

09/22/2004 12:03:34 AM · #6

I'd be sure to include a Limited Copyright Release stating the photo can be used for promotional purposes, but can not be sold.

Pretty much what graphicfunk and Spaz said. :)

pcody

Canon PowerShot G6

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

09/22/2004 12:22:46 AM · #7

I would usually say do a deal to get your name out, but in this case I agree with the cloudman. Don't give it away. You are good at what you do and I think he would be more likely to respect you (as a business person) if you ask for the price your picture deserves. You will also feel better if you get cold hard cash for your efforts.If you want to be seen as a pro, act like a pro. This is such a turnaround for me.

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

09/22/2004 12:31:52 AM · #8

If this guy is what he claims to be he should be offering you some money, maybe not a lot but you can make up the difference with credits and a referral e-mail or phone #. He is a business man asking to use the photo for a business purpose.

jxpfeer

Nikon D70

09/22/2004 08:55:58 AM · #9

i would say not to give it away for free. even if it's just a small fee. considering it's going to be used for promotions and the like, I would definitely try to do some research and charge an appropriate use, based on how many people will see it, and of course give him a limited use licensing.

PaulMdx

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

09/22/2004 09:27:50 AM · #10

I'd say whatever you do, make sure you're likely to get something in return.

If you expect to get referals from the copyright message (or link maybe?), then maybe it could be considered payment in kind.

If giving him a freebie would act as a sweetener to get you in at other venues he deals with, then maybe that would be worth it too.

If you're gaining nothing back, you choices are to either give it away completely, or ask for hard cash.

As a developing business, I'd probably opt for the second, as I think it would provide the best potential payback. Unless you can get a coupla hundred dollars. :)

Let us know how you get on!

09/22/2004 09:39:46 AM · #11

Thanks for all the replies...

I'm still in between decisions. I can't say that it will get me into other venues or tracks. Making him happy will really help I'm sure as he seems to have a lot of clout at this other mx track.

If I just leave a copyright message at the bottom of the picture, it would be way too easy to crop that off and use it on the 'rider cards' he is going to make without me being the wiser. Of course, the web site I will know about...

Since he sponsors quite a few riders and is always looking for others as well, offering him this one for free allows him to keep asking for free pictures.

If this rider approached me and asked for the picture to be used in the same way, I would charge him. When I'm at the mx track, I print pictures onsite for a fee.

I think I'm seeing my answer develop here. Even though I would like what he could possibly bring me, giving it to him for free could possibly cost me more in the end....

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/22/2004 12:12:04 PM · #12

Well, this is what I decided to do and how I wrote it up.
Anyone have a Limited Copyright Release they would be willing to let me use?

------------------------------------------
Iâ��m glad I had a photo of Ryan that you can use. Iâ��m honored that you would like to use my photo for Ryanâ��s business card, your web site and the company web site. I would very much like to supply you this image; however Iâ��m struggling a bit with doing so for no charge. As a professional photographer, I canâ��t afford to give out my photos.

I do appreciate you trying to help me by getting my photos in front of the public, so I would be willing to provide a web sized image file, but I will require photo credit on the business cards, and the 2 web sites you plan to post the photo on with a link back to my site. I would also request that you sign a Limited Copyright Release. I hope youâ��ll understand that as a professional I have to protect my work and my reputation with the riders, fans and parents.

It is by no means my intention to be difficult to work with; I just want to set my expectations up front so we can continue to work together in the future with little or no misunderstandings. If I provide photos here for no charge, it will become difficult to justify charging the riders and their fans/parents.

Please let me know if you have any input or suggestions.
--------------------------------------------

Although I absolutely agree with not giving out photos, I'm really trying to get my name into the motocross circle. I have competition out at the track closest to my house and I'm trying to get in there. The manager of the track is currently not happy with my competition so staying in the good graces of some of the larger players, both vendors and riders, might be a good thing.

Thanks again for the help guys and gals

BobsterLobster

Fujifilm FinePix S3 Pro

09/22/2004 12:23:58 PM · #13

I would skip out the sentence 'Iâ��m struggling a bit with doing so for no charge.'... I think it sounds much stronger just saying 'However, as a professional photographer, I canâ��t afford to give out my photos.

I'm also not sure about 'It is by no means my intention to be difficult to work with'... this in fact makes it sound like you're being difficult, because you've just put the thought in his head. Perhaps 'I hope you're not too disappointed', or 'I hope you can understand my decision'.

Bob

SandyP

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 200mm f/2.8 USM

09/22/2004 12:36:52 PM · #14

I agree totally with Bobster Lobster. It sounds like you are apologizing for charging what your work is worth -- or like you feel the need to explain why you have to charge. A professional just charges people for his work and that's that. The more confident you are that your picture warrants a fee, the better the buyer is going to feel about paying for it. My dad always used to tell me "Blessed is the man who expects nothing -- because that's exactly what he's going to get."

Good Luck!

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/22/2004 01:05:04 PM · #15

tina, i pm'ed you.

09/22/2004 01:08:45 PM · #16

Thanks for the advice, I made the changes you suggested Bob and you are right. I tend to be more passive when I need to be more aggresive. :-)

I sent the email off, so hopefully this will go over well.

Right now, it's just one small image file for a rider about to go pro - but who knows what the future will hold and I have to protect that.

I'll keep everyone posted with the response.

09/22/2004 01:10:34 PM · #17

Originally posted by skiprow:

tina, i pm'ed you.

Great advice Skip - thanks for taking the time to create an email with a wealth of information and advice. :-)

thatcloudthere

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

09/23/2004 10:40:33 AM · #18

Let us know what happens, Tina. I think you made a wise decision and I hope this is the beginning of some of your dreams coming true!

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

09/23/2004 11:07:30 AM · #19

It's a great shot, I say just get it out there...it's still copy writed so tis all good!
Unless you have other offers..

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

09/23/2004 11:20:29 AM · #20

If your going to really get something back. I.e closer to riders, fee entry, press pass etc then I would give ti away for free.

However if the only thing you have to gain is a tiny credit on their site, you must ask how many visitors the site gets, what page is it going to be on etc etc before summing up if it's worth it to you.

One thing I did notice, is that you have PROOF written all over your images. This will hurt your sales, so if you are keen on selling them via your website - my first piece of advice is to remove all the text that interferes with the photo. Never a good thing.

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

09/23/2004 11:23:59 AM · #21

Jonpink,

EVen though he's not selling his photos marked you still think he should have them unmarked on his site?

Hmm I dunno about that. It's way too easy to copy and paste images off the net and then they can be used anywhere without you knowing. Even if you have copy/paste disabled you can use photoshop or paintshop to cut the image right off the web [which I've done...forshame!].

If you're concerned about image theft, marking is a good thing..maybe consider a smaller mark or something? Just a thought..

Message edited by author 2004-09-23 11:26:10.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

09/23/2004 11:44:04 AM · #22

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Jonpink,

Even though he's not selling his photos marked you still think he should have them unmarked on his site?

Hmm I dunno about that. It's way too easy to copy and paste images off the net and then they can be used anywhere without you knowing. Even if you have copy/paste disabled you can use photoshop or paintshop to cut the image right off the web [which I've done...forshame!].

If you're concerned about image theft, marking is a good thing..maybe consider a smaller mark or something? Just a thought..

I used to mark all my photographs too - Then I read a few articles online written by stock photographers, and also spoke with some personally and they advised me to remove mine.

I did, and I must say I have sold more images since doing so.

To me, it can ruin the attractiveness of a photograph - and with so many out there, competition is high so I would do everything to make it as attractive as possible.

Even if someone was to 'steal it' (with all due respect, that is a long shot for 99.9% of us here if we are all honest with ourselves) then it's not going to be used in anything of huge value because it's unprintable.

Any company that is going to pay good money for a photograph isn't going to need to steal one. And any company that needs to steal an image is never going to buy one.

And regardless of all the above, it only takes a couple of minuets in full zoom on photoshop to remove any kind of watermark / copyright text.

If you weigh up the risk of someone stealing a low res image against the risk of loosing a $400 sale I think it makes good business sense.

Message edited by author 2004-09-23 11:44:41.

09/23/2004 12:07:10 PM · #23

The only images I put proof on are the event/portrait photos. I've had many a rider want their picture in a digital/email format and I have no doubt that if it didn't say proof they would be taken more times than I care to think about to be used as profile pictures in forums, email around to friends/family and rider web sites. When I won't give them their photo for free they don't want anything. I find this happens mainly with the pro's. The riders that aren't pro will pay for their picture, generally. While it's not that big of a deal I suppose, there is no need to charge for pictures then because they'll just go get them off the net. Every other motocross photographer I have come across so far (which has been my competition) also puts a watermark on their photographs when selling from the web.

Update:
I decided to give him the photo for no money, but it will be a 400x200 web sized image to be used on 2 web sites and on a rider card. It will get me some attention at another track and with the riders, so it's worth it. He will go somewhere else for a photo if I don't cough it up, so it might as well be me that gets the attention.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone! :-)

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

09/24/2004 04:45:18 AM · #24

Well I would never charge the subject - isn't that a little rude?

PaulMdx