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08/17/2014 08:43:36 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
... For example, my starting vote is a six... I go up from there... but rarely do I give lower than a six. ... |
Hmmm ... seems to me that the skewing actually takes place with voting patterns like this (starting at six, rarely going lower). I really don't understand why people don't use the entire range while voting.
From the Voting Rules page:
"You must - rate entries on a scale of 1 to 10. A score of 1 is a badĂ‚ť photo, and a score of 10 is a goodĂ‚ť photo."
When the entire range isn't used it's basically modifying the voting scale of DPC. Is it because people are worried about what others' will think if their vote cast average is not high enough or something? Seems to be more prevalent the past couple of years ...
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08/17/2014 09:00:04 PM · #52 |
Stats: You have rated 0 of 39 images (0%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 39 images (98%) in this challenge. |
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08/17/2014 09:14:16 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Lydia:
... For example, my starting vote is a six... I go up from there... but rarely do I give lower than a six. ... |
Hmmm ... seems to me that the skewing actually takes place with voting patterns like this (starting at six, rarely going lower). I really don't understand why people don't use the entire range while voting.
From the Voting Rules page:
"You must - rate entries on a scale of 1 to 10. A score of 1 is a badĂ‚ť photo, and a score of 10 is a goodĂ‚ť photo."
When the entire range isn't used it's basically modifying the voting scale of DPC. Is it because people are worried about what others' will think if their vote cast average is not high enough or something? Seems to be more prevalent the past couple of years ... |
Average between 1 and 10 is actually 5.5, not 5.0
And you don't have to use the whole scale. 5.5 is an average photo (imo) just like it's an average score. I happen to think that the photography on this site is better than average. In my case, I figure average is what my imaginary Uncle Bob does with his point and shoot. That's what the majority of the world does -- point and shoot, cell phones, etc. Those are the average to which I'm comparing the photos on this site. Thus my voting average is 6.14.
Just because the lower end of the scale is there, doesn't mean that I feel that any, some, all, or anywhere in between merit that low of a score. I give a number of 5s, occasional 4s. But 1-3 on the scale I find extremely rarely warranted. It's hard to make a photo that sucks that badly.
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08/17/2014 09:21:36 PM · #54 |
I thought I had commented on more -- but I did the voting. :)
You have rated 39 of 39 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 4 images (10%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 6.1282. |
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08/17/2014 09:23:10 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
... That's what the majority of the world does -- point and shoot, cell phones, etc. Those are the average to which I'm comparing the photos on this site. ... |
Strange, I thought we were comparing and voting on the entries in each challenge as a wholly contained group - not worldly photos in general.
If that were the case you'd not only have to include the "snapshots" of the world (which there actually are plenty of here on DPC) but also the acclaimed high-end stuff as well (think of all the "in the style of" type photographers, etc...).
There's some great photography here, but there's also enough on the other end to use the entire voting range as intended. |
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08/17/2014 10:12:13 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
... to use the entire voting range as intended. |
Where does it say that we have to use every number while voting?
I only see that we have to apply the scale to every image upon which we vote.
And... actually... I don't see how we have a choice on that matter! LOL!
The scale is the scale... and those are all of the choices we have. We can't give a -1 or an 11.
I've wanted to give an eleven before...
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08/17/2014 10:16:51 PM · #57 |
I'd like the scale to be 1 to 100. Much more room for fine tuning.
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08/17/2014 10:23:02 PM · #58 |
I would like to suggest as an exercise, to have one challenge in which the extra rule shall be the following:
- all participants shall vote on all images
- all voters shall evaluate each image without using any system or preconceived idea and look at the image for what it is
- all participants shall leave aside any memory of his/her image or how the mark given will affect his/her average score
If participants are not capable of leaving aside their own ambition for a virtual ribbon, let's make this proposed challenge a Side Challenge and somehow be able to give marks that would not affect the average score.
And one last remark. I believe that what we try to do here at DPC is to work at a higher level than the average person who takes pictures. That's why we have topics and several different types of editing for instance. Otherwise we would have only free challenges but we insist of introducing elements that require a healthy dose of thinking or technical difficulty.
Let's pretend at least once that we make art for art's sake
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08/17/2014 10:26:52 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by mariuca:
If participants are not capable of leaving aside their own ambition for a virtual ribbon... |
This does not enter into my decision not to vote on challenges in which I'm entered. I'm actually quite surprised at the thought.
I'm not sure why so many others don't vote in challenges in which they've entered. Perhaps it's just that they want to make entirely sure that they are voting fairly... leaving no chance of any question about their motives on voting how they do.
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08/17/2014 10:35:14 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by mariuca:
And one last remark. I believe that what we try to do here at DPC is to work at a higher level than the average person who takes pictures. |
This part is quite interesting. WHY DO WE enter images here? Is it to get a high average? Is it to learn more about photography? Is it to see what people who aren't our relative (and therefore won't lie to us) think about our images? Is it for the thrill of competition?
What?
I think the answer to that is as different for each participant as is each person's voting habits.
If what I think you're saying is what you're actually saying, though... I'd think that you'd value comments more than votes. I think that comments from others help us to "work at a higher level than the average person..." and a vote... means... really... the same thing.
It's a comment with a number when one's not willing to comment with words.
Or... the opposite is true... A comment is a vote without being willing to give a number.
What does it matter WHICH one we give? It seems like one or the other would be enough if we're just looking to see how we're doing in the scheme of things...
But, since I'm so frequently asked why I "comment only" (ad nausem... even by the same people over and over)... and NEVER have I been asked why I "vote only"... I think that votes must be what people want more than comments.
Why is that?
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08/17/2014 10:44:37 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
But, since I'm so frequently asked why I "comment only" (ad nauseam... even by the same people over and over)... and NEVER have I been asked why I "vote only"... I think that votes must be what people want more than comments.
Why is that? |
The challenge is central to the site. Voting validates the challenge, for most people. Commenting is icing on the cake; it makes the cake special, but it isn't "the cake". There are plenty of "comment-only" places out there, and "voting-but-not-anonymous" places as well, but not many like this. Voting is central to the experience of challenges, basically. |
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08/17/2014 10:45:46 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
Originally posted by mariuca:
And one last remark. I believe that what we try to do here at DPC is to work at a higher level than the average person who takes pictures. |
This part is quite interesting. WHY DO WE enter images here? Is it to get a high average? Is it to learn more about photography? Is it to see what people who aren't our relative (and therefore won't lie to us) think about our images? Is it for the thrill of competition?
What?
I think the answer to that is as different for each participant as is each person's voting habits.
If what I think you're saying is what you're actually saying, though... I'd think that you'd value comments more than votes. I think that comments from others help us to "work at a higher level than the average person..." and a vote... means... really... the same thing.
It's a comment with a number when one's not willing to comment with words.
Or... the opposite is true... A comment is a vote without being willing to give a number.
What does it matter WHICH one we give? It seems like one or the other would be enough if we're just looking to see how we're doing in the scheme of things...
But, since I'm so frequently asked why I "comment only" (ad nausem... even by the same people over and over)... and NEVER have I been asked why I "vote only"... I think that votes must be what people want more than comments.
Why is that? |
In answer to your last question: "never underestimate the power of a free t-shirt".
In our case, of a ribbon.
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08/17/2014 10:49:43 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Lydia:
But, since I'm so frequently asked why I "comment only" (ad nauseam... even by the same people over and over)... and NEVER have I been asked why I "vote only"... I think that votes must be what people want more than comments.
Why is that? |
The challenge is central to the site. Voting validates the challenge, for most people. Commenting is icing on the cake; it makes the cake special, but it isn't "the cake". There are plenty of "comment-only" places out there, and "voting-but-not-anonymous" places as well, but not many like this. Voting is central to the experience of challenges, basically. |
I do love hearing everyone's opinion. |
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08/17/2014 10:52:00 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Lydia:
But, since I'm so frequently asked why I "comment only" (ad nauseam... even by the same people over and over)... and NEVER have I been asked why I "vote only"... I think that votes must be what people want more than comments.
Why is that? |
The challenge is central to the site. Voting validates the challenge, for most people. Commenting is icing on the cake; it makes the cake special, but it isn't "the cake". There are plenty of "comment-only" places out there, and "voting-but-not-anonymous" places as well, but not many like this. Voting is central to the experience of challenges, basically. |
Yes. As the Bear said. Therefore that's why I suggested a challenge in which all participants have to vote on all images and I did not specify that comments are required. Some people do not seem capable of giving a 10 to a photo that they like out of fear of reducing their own average. Same reason sometimes with the opposite purpose though, for giving 1. |
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08/17/2014 10:53:11 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by mariuca:
In answer to your last question: "never underestimate the power of a free t-shirt".
In our case, of a ribbon. |
So... you're saying you do it for the ribbon?
I do it for the fun... and to learn photography.
This site has done more for me in both areas than any other place I've been.
I've learned more from the comments than the votes (I rarely understand the score I receive), but I like the votes, too.
To each his own, I suppose.
We all have different reasons for being here. I like to encourage people. I think that comments do that... just as well as votes... and maybe more so.
You seem to disagree and I'm totally okay with that.
That's why the site (and the world)is so interesting... and fun! Everybody's unique... just like everybody else! LOL!!
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08/17/2014 10:58:01 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
Originally posted by mariuca:
In answer to your last question: "never underestimate the power of a free t-shirt".
In our case, of a ribbon. |
So... you're saying you do it for the ribbon? |
Wow wow wow Lydia!!!!! We've been on the same team but you must have forgotten why I take pics.
No, was not talking about me.
Au contraire said a mighty surprised me.
I was talking about the people to whom you addressed the question.
Must be late and I lost coherence |
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08/17/2014 11:02:26 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by mariuca:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Lydia:
But, since I'm so frequently asked why I "comment only" (ad nauseam... even by the same people over and over)... and NEVER have I been asked why I "vote only"... I think that votes must be what people want more than comments.
Why is that? |
The challenge is central to the site. Voting validates the challenge, for most people. Commenting is icing on the cake; it makes the cake special, but it isn't "the cake". There are plenty of "comment-only" places out there, and "voting-but-not-anonymous" places as well, but not many like this. Voting is central to the experience of challenges, basically. |
Yes. As the Bear said. Therefore that's why I suggested a challenge in which all participants have to vote on all images and I did not specify that comments are required. Some people do not seem capable of giving a 10 to a photo that they like out of fear of reducing their own average. Same reason sometimes with the opposite purpose though, for giving 1. |
That is Bear's opinion (and I respect that)... but that doesn't make it true for everyone.
If you're going to require everyone who enters to vote on every image... why not require everyone who enters to comment on every image?
We have two different views on this... you're adamant on yours, it seems and I... am happy to carry on as before. If you require me to vote on every image, I will not enter.
If you require me to comment on every image, I'll enter.
If I require you to comment on every image... I wonder if you'd enter.
It doesn't seem like I'm making myself clear.
There are many reasons that people are here. If we start putting MORE "must dos" on them... then some will leave. I think we need to focus on letting everyone enjoy why they are here... instead of pointing out flaws in their plan of enjoyment.
Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for the site, I am strong willed and confident. So... no matter how many times I get questioned on my "commenting only" practice, I will continue.
The first few times I was questioned in detail by many, I quit commenting altogether. That doesn't help anyone.
So, I suggest we just allow people to enjoy the site as they like to enjoy it, be grateful for any participation... be it votes or comments or both... and move on.
I'm not going to vote when I don't want to... but I will still comment when I want to.
I'm not going to comment when I don't want to... but I will still vote when I want to.
And... I can't see how this could possibly be a problem to anyone. It's just that I announce it that I'm "commenting only".
I'm CERTAINLY happy to give that up (it does take more time to add that to each comment), IF someone can promise me that no one will send me an email asking me about a vote I didn't make.
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08/17/2014 11:05:29 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by mariuca:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Originally posted by mariuca:
In answer to your last question: "never underestimate the power of a free t-shirt".
In our case, of a ribbon. |
So... you're saying you do it for the ribbon? |
Wow wow wow Lydia!!!!! We've been on the same team but you must have forgotten why I take pics.
No, was not talking about me.
Au contraire said a mighty surprised me.
I was talking about the people to whom you addressed the question.
Must be late and I lost coherence |
Ok... really I didn't mind for what reason you enter, Mariuca! I was just thinking you were answering my question of why people enter...
I was not judging... There's nothing to judge. People enter for all kinds of reasons... as I've said. And... ALL are valid. :D
I've enjoyed the time I've spent with you!
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08/17/2014 11:15:43 PM · #69 |
I would be happy to comment on very image if, in exchange, everyone who enters a challenge is required to vote.
In other words, I agree with Bear that for these challenges the votes are "the cake".
To that end, Lydia, would you prefer to get ribbons or comments? |
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08/17/2014 11:20:35 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
I would be happy to comment on very image if, in exchange, everyone who enters a challenge is required to vote.
In other words, I agree with Bear that for these challenges the votes are "the cake".
To that end, Lydia, would you prefer to get ribbons or comments? |
As I said, I don't see anything wrong with the system as it is now. I think REQUIRING people to do MORE when we already have a participation problem... is DPC Suicide.
To answer your question, I want BOTH! Just like everyone else here!
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08/17/2014 11:24:01 PM · #71 |
I really, truly have NO idea what the problem is.
What are we trying to fix here?
What's broken?
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08/17/2014 11:32:23 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
What's broken? |
Arguably, when we routinely get fewer votes than we have challenge entries, that's a problem. Not YOUR problem, of course, but DPC's collectively. For an especially disheartening example, look at the numbers on the July Free Study: the blue-ribbon image looked like this:
Place: 1 out of 176
Avg (all users): 7.2875
Avg (commenters): 8.8750
Avg (participants): 7.2656
Avg (non-participants): 7.3750
Views since voting: 1100
Views during voting: 154
Votes: 80
176 entrants and not even half that many votes? What are people THINKING?
Message edited by author 2014-08-17 23:42:41. |
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08/17/2014 11:45:04 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Lydia:
What's broken? |
Arguably, when we routinely get fewer votes than we have challenge entries, that's a problem. Not YOUR problem, of course, but DPC's collectively. For an especially disheartening example, look at the numbers on the July Free Study: the blue-ribbon image looked like this:
Place: 1 out of 176
Avg (all users): 7.2875
Avg (commenters): 8.8750
Avg (participants): 7.2656
Avg (non-participants): 7.3750
Views since voting: 1100
Views during voting: 154
Votes: 80
176 entrants and barely half that many votes? What are people THINKING? |
People all have lives. They do what they can where they can... but sometimes all they have time for is to enter... and not vote.
But... sometimes they don't have time to enter... but they vote.
It all seems a bit unnecessary to put too much thought into why people do what they do.
This started because someone asked me (for the second time in a week) on two different threads... WHY I comment only.
And that's just ONE week. I've gotten it many times... And I'm tired of it.
It's not your fault... and it's not Lynn's fault. It's a collective thought that people should do what THEY think is perfect... instead of what the OTHER person thinks is perfect.
Is either one right? Probably not.
But... the fuss drives people away.
And not just the ones who are involved in the fuss.
Why can't we all just get along?! LOL!
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08/17/2014 11:59:46 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Lydia:
What's broken? |
Arguably, when we routinely get fewer votes than we have challenge entries, that's a problem. Not YOUR problem, of course, but DPC's collectively. . . . |
Just a couple of random thoughts in an argument a discussion I've been following but not participating in :)
I almost never vote in challenges that I don't enter. I simply do not have time to vote in every challenge here so I choose to vote at least the challenges I enter (but shamefully, sometimes I don't get finished there, either - to me finished means not just voting 100% of the entries I have not seen but going back and fine-tuning my initial pass). Lydia has cast over 53,000 votes. Guess where she spends her voting time. Voting the challenges she does not enter and commenting both.
And why is no one taking to task those who basically use the bottom end of the scale for their votes, routinely handing out almost all 4's and lower?
And for the record, I have no problem with either approach as long as it's applied consistently.
You have rated 39 of 39 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 15 images (38%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 6.2051.
PS I was writing this while Lydia was writing the post that just precedes mine :)
Message edited by author 2014-08-18 00:13:34. |
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08/18/2014 07:01:26 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by nam:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Lydia:
What's broken? |
Arguably, when we routinely get fewer votes than we have challenge entries, that's a problem. Not YOUR problem, of course, but DPC's collectively. . . . |
And why is no one taking to task those who basically use the bottom end of the scale for their votes, routinely handing out almost all 4's and lower?
And for the record, I have no problem with either approach as long as it's applied consistently. |
Actually, people have been taken to task for only using the bottom end of the scale for voting.
What strikes me is when people say they're only going to vote using a 6 or greater. IMO that skews results as much as using only the lower end of the scale.
I get the impression from reading various forums here that some people are quite concerned that they won't be viewed as highly if their average vote cast is below (some x number ... say 6). Some even take it so far as to "pass" on images they can't give this higher score to ... they will just skip it and not vote on it. That REALLY skews voting results.
Yes, consistency is important (i.e. voting in a similar manner all of the time) - but so is voting on all images rather than just casting high votes to what some see as the cream of the crop. |
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