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11/05/2013 04:49:11 PM · #76 |
you say he threatened to bill you for the work he did for you.... Well send him a bill for the rental of the equipment. There are plenty of sites where you can get proper pricing
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11/05/2013 04:52:13 PM · #77 |
Strictly fwiw...this issue is a large reason why I won't go Canon, despite pressure from  Magnumphotography to do so. If I ever broke or damaged any of his gear I'd not only feel terrible but would then be on the hook to replace the item. Let alone the whole snarl of borrowing each other's gear, something happens, the other party doesn't notice or denies they damaged it, the blame game starts...*sigh* |
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11/05/2013 07:08:55 PM · #78 |
| Well here in the states I have found small claims court to be worthless. I won but collecting is another issue. Involving the po po also worthless....you "loaned" the stuff to the A.H. I doubt they still have it. I think your better action is a letter from an attorney. Unless you have a friendly one....likely will cost at least a couple hundred. Good luck. |
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11/05/2013 07:14:20 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Strictly fwiw...this issue is a large reason why I won't go Canon, despite pressure from Magnumphotography to do so. If I ever broke or damaged any of his gear I'd not only feel terrible but would then be on the hook to replace the item. Let alone the whole snarl of borrowing each other's gear, something happens, the other party doesn't notice or denies they damaged it, the blame game starts...*sigh* |
LOL!!! We're ALSO a two-system household :-) |
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11/05/2013 07:22:09 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by Skip:
wow...this is a puker.
here are some suggestions, some related to resolving this situation, some related to preventing this from happening in the first place. some have already been suggested by others and i'm echoing them because they make sense.
1) get your story straight. in your title you refer to this person as a "friend" (my quotes). in your first post, you referred to this person as a "partner". in subsequent posts, you make references to other types of relationships with this person. the outcome here can hinge on semantics. you can be legally screwed by a partner.
1b) put on paper a timeline of your relationship. when you met, what you have done together, who has done what, who has paid for what, and who has been paid how much for what. include all materials and equipment, and all receipts.
2) if you are running a business, run the business. there is a lot more to having a photography business than just owning equipment and getting paid to use it. get contracts and use them. if you don't get them from an attorney, get them reviewed by an attorney. get insurance. keep a maintained list of all your equipment, including serial numbers. use an accountant. yes, this stuff costs money, but that's why you factor these costs into the rates you charge. your rates shouldn't be based on what you think you can ask for or what you think the market will bear, but on what it takes to cover all the costs of business and your profit. and if you are going to have "partners", you really need written and signed partnership agreements...
3) be ready to chalk it up as a loss and move on.
2 AB 1600s? $750
PW+3? $150
was that tamaron your 18-270? that retails for $1300+ by can be had right now through amazon prime for $450. if that's the case, go on and replace it.
umbrella? $25 will cover that.
it looks like $1500 could cover you.
3b & 1c) don't play at business. write a business plan that includes reinvesting in your equipment, as well as maintaining it. have backups for your backups. to succeed in business, you have to identify the things that could stop or kill your business, then plan for them. and charge accordingly. if you don't have the cash or credit to handle this, you haven't been charging enough or marketing enough.
4) if you want drama, go to the theater. otherwise, eliminate it. i tell my kids, "you only have control over TWO THINGS in this life, and TWO THINGS only: how you act, and how you react." when you strip away the drama from any situation and get down to the cold, hard, boring facts, things tend to be a lot more manageable and to make a lot more sense. i also tell me kids, "people are going to talk about you, behind your back, and you cannot stop that. some people, no matter what, are going to say things about you that you don't like, that may be untrue. all you can do to try to control that conversation is to try to give people as little bad stuff as you can to say about you. watch what you say, watch what you do, and hopefully you will create a reputation that makes for positive conversation..."
5) get an attorney that has experience with this type of thing, give him/her all your documentation, and let the attorney handle it. make arrangements to replace the necessary gear (rent if you have to), charge sustainable rates, and move on to a better place.
6) do not take matters into your own hands. do not get someone unknown to him to hire him for a shoot in the desert and have him met by 6 or 7 large friends so that you can show up and have a "chat" with him to explain why you are taking back the gear he "borrowed" from you. (see #4 above).
7) lastly: there are two sides to every story and like it or not, he has his version and he obviously believes his version is truer than yours. i don't doubt you have been wronged, but i think you are going to have to work through #1b above in order to understand where he is coming from and why he believes his version. otherwise, you run the risk of losing a lot more time and money, possibly without a favorable outcome.
good luck with this. |
I am quoting Skip here, because I think everyone needs to read his advice. It's perfect! I hope things work out for you. You deserve much better in a friendship. |
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11/05/2013 07:41:20 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Trotterjay:
Civil matter, consult an attorney before that equipment is long gone. |
Ain't never heard of grand theft photo? |
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11/05/2013 08:59:05 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well here in the states I have found small claims court to be worthless. I won but collecting is another issue. Involving the po po also worthless....you "loaned" the stuff to the A.H. I doubt they still have it. I think your better action is a letter from an attorney. Unless you have a friendly one....likely will cost at least a couple hundred. Good luck. |
Collecting judgements when they won't pay up can be fun. Imagine the rage when you start taking money from their paycheck or placing liens on their car or house, or better yet, have some court officer show up at their house, crack open their garage and size the contents for auction. Takes work, but can be highly amusing. |
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11/05/2013 09:15:02 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well here in the states I have found small claims court to be worthless. I won but collecting is another issue. Involving the po po also worthless....you "loaned" the stuff to the A.H. I doubt they still have it. I think your better action is a letter from an attorney. Unless you have a friendly one....likely will cost at least a couple hundred. Good luck. |
Collecting judgements when they won't pay up can be fun. Imagine the rage when you start taking money from their paycheck or placing liens on their car or house, or better yet, have some court officer show up at their house, crack open their garage and size the contents for auction. Takes work, but can be highly amusing. |
Sounds more like a hobby than an effective way to accomplish the goal. :) |
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11/05/2013 09:41:30 PM · #84 |
Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on!
Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses!!
Message edited by author 2013-11-05 21:41:58. |
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11/05/2013 10:27:50 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by Stagolee:
Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on!
Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses!! |
Ms. J, as much as it pains me to agree, this is the most sensible course to take. If you have insurance, that is. Then you can easily replace everything, and just bid good riddance to your EX friend. |
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11/05/2013 10:40:00 PM · #86 |
| So far, all great advice. You may want to also contact the local pawn shop to see if they have recently received any of that type of equipment and see if serials match any of your stuff. If they question, let them know they may be in possession of stolen property, unfortunatel I"m sorry you had to go through this. It sucks when those you trust betray you. (((Hugs))) |
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11/06/2013 07:31:00 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Strictly fwiw...this issue is a large reason why I won't go Canon, despite pressure from Magnumphotography to do so. If I ever broke or damaged any of his gear I'd not only feel terrible but would then be on the hook to replace the item. Let alone the whole snarl of borrowing each other's gear, something happens, the other party doesn't notice or denies they damaged it, the blame game starts...*sigh* |
LOL!!! We're ALSO a two-system household :-) |
Attagirl! :-) After all, you think I want to be on the hook for replacing his 500mm if anything ever happened to it? It's a $7k lens!!!
+1 on the pawn shop front...and local free classifieds websites like kijiji and craigslist. Heard of one local girl whose bicycle got stolen - she's a student, relied on it for transportation. That night she went on kijiji, saw her bike listed for sale, contacted the seller, went to go see it the next day. Met the thief, saw that it was indeed her bike, asked to take it for a test ride, and rode off into the sunset. She did have a friend in a car along for backup, btw, if things got ugly. Nice to see a happy ending every so often :-)
Message edited by author 2013-11-06 07:36:18. |
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11/06/2013 10:26:30 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by Stagolee:
Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on!
Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses!! |
+16 |
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11/06/2013 01:58:38 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Stagolee:
Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on!
Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses!! |
This is the sort of wise and kind advice that I could not disagree with more. Perhaps it has to do with my Irish background, where a fight is a joyous call to battle, and a grudge is taken to the grave. I am sure there are folks who could take a deep cleansing breath and let it all go, but if I let this b*st*rd get away with stealing my stuff without a fight, it would be like having a tick burrowing in my brain for years.
If nothing else letting it all go will always make you wonder if you could have gotten it back. You will also be enforcing the thieve's notion that his actions are a legally justifiable action, and when he rips off the next poor soul, it will be with your blessing.
As my father always said "Don't get angry, get even." Be rational, and be ruthless. Get your story straight, get your facts on paper, boil down your story to it's simplest form without emotion or tangents, and sue the b*st*rd.
In my experience, the emotional catharsis of having a judge say to a person who has stolen from me "He is right, you are wrong, pay him his money" is worth more that whatever you end up winning. |
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11/06/2013 02:23:16 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Stagolee:
Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on!
Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses!! |
This is the sort of wise and kind advice that I could not disagree with more. Perhaps it has to do with my Irish background, where a fight is a joyous call to battle, and a grudge is taken to the grave. I am sure there are folks who could take a deep cleansing breath and let it all go, but if I let this b*st*rd get away with stealing my stuff without a fight, it would be like having a tick burrowing in my brain for years.
If nothing else letting it all go will always make you wonder if you could have gotten it back. You will also be enforcing the thieve's notion that his actions are a legally justifiable action, and when he rips off the next poor soul, it will be with your blessing.
As my father always said "Don't get angry, get even." Be rational, and be ruthless. Get your story straight, get your facts on paper, boil down your story to it's simplest form without emotion or tangents, and sue the b*st*rd.
In my experience, the emotional catharsis of having a judge say to a person who has stolen from me "He is right, you are wrong, pay him his money" is worth more that whatever you end up winning. |
And as I pointed out earlier, collecting on an unpaid judgment can be a joy in and of itself. The money or stuff is nice, but when you can legally send an officer of the court over to forcibly enter their garage to take his belongings and have them sold to pay it all, can be getting even 10-fold.
My friend who does this on the side went to one house where the guy's soon to be ex girlfriend answered the door. She let them in, pointed out his gun collection and other valuables then opened the garage and directed them to his new bass boat and motorcycles, all of which were seized and auctioned. |
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11/06/2013 07:29:00 PM · #91 |
You won't get this kind of results in small claims court.....even by winning. If you take it to court plan on spending at least 10K
Originally posted by Stagolee:
" Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on! Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses " |
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11/06/2013 10:08:28 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
You won't get this kind of results in small claims court.....even by winning. |
Really? Small claims never works? Thousands of of small claims judgments are handed out each day. I have used the system several times and it works. Arizona's cap on small claims is only $2,500 (as opposed to $10,000 in my home state) but that is enough for this case, certainly better than nothing.
Sure, it is easier to just accept that you have been ripped off, but with a small amount of work, you can get some of your money back.
Filing costs around $50, and serving is about the same, but when you win, you get the expenses back. You spend a day sitting in court waiting your turn, but you get a turn to convince a person who has legal authority that you have been wronged, and the judge makes it right. After court, if you are not willing to do the work, or just don't enjoy the conflict, getting the award can be difficult, but that is why there are agencies who will do it for you for a fee somewhere between 10 and 35 percent of the judgment.
It disheartens me to hear the advice to let it go, to it allow the bully to steal your lunch money, to allow the con man to rip you off, and then say there is no point in following your legal recourse when the small claims court is so easy to use. If you can manage to get a drivers licence, or file for a business licence, you can file, win and collect in small claims court. |
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11/06/2013 10:37:38 PM · #93 |
Is it possible for you to organise a shoot at his house with all your equipment to be used (assuming he still has it and has not sold it).
Make the model a male acquaintance that would be happy to help with the return of your goods(a big tough guy type would be good)
When the shoot is finished get him to help you pack up all your equipment and take it with you from the shoot.
Just a thought. |
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11/07/2013 08:08:07 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
You won't get this kind of results in small claims court.....even by winning. If you take it to court plan on spending at least 10K
Originally posted by Stagolee:
" Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on! Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses " |
You're right if you mean that you don't get a magic payday after winning. Unless you're willing to do the work to enforce it, the judgment isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I've won in small claims court, had the defendant refuse to pay his judgment and proceeded to legally have his pay docked and to have his stuff taken by court officers and sold at auction to pay me (and the officers). |
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11/07/2013 02:58:43 PM · #95 |
As both Spork99 and  BrennanOB have pointed out, small claims court is your best, most effective way of dealing with your issue.
DO have a printout of the e-mails.
DO be honest about your relationship, yes he *was* a friend, and you lent him the equipment, but that he has refused multiple times to return it.
DO make sure you have documentation/receipts for everything you have. If you have serial numbers, that's even better. It makes it more difficult if you don't have any paperwork stating that you bought the gear.
The system *does* work, but you have to be thorough and patient. Both the aforementioned guys are correct in stating that a judgement does have teeth.......having a judgement against you does involve seizing and selling your assets if you don't pay up.
Good luck!
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11/07/2013 07:38:25 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by Stagolee:
Write the gear off! Chalk it up to experience and move on!
Honestly the whole unsavory business will consume you! The more it drags on the more it will effect you adversely! both mentally and emotionally. Just cut your losses!! |
I did this, told him he could keep my photography gear as I was getting sick and tired of thinking of his lying thieving, he wasnt worth it.
Of course still terribly upset, but right now, that is one less thing for me make myself sick on.
I only have fight in me for one battle and got thrown a magnificently horrendous one yesterday afternoon involving my kids. So he got that text right after that other thing happened.
I am also thinking of taking a year out as soon as this has all happened and just renting my house and renting someone else's for a year. Just to get away from it all |
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11/07/2013 08:07:05 PM · #97 |
| I'm sorry your life has sadness for you, you do seem to have a lot of loved ones around you, though, even if the are apita, you are not alone. Be true to your signature, take your camera and document the world beyond yours because you have beautiful eyes ;) |
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11/07/2013 08:15:38 PM · #98 |
Never mind...I cannot edit worth a damn. Better to say nothing lest something be misunderstood. What Skip said. Kudos! As always sage advice.
Message edited by author 2013-11-07 20:24:12. |
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11/07/2013 08:36:19 PM · #99 |
Nope I am just done with it., I have learnt my lesson that you really can never trust people , with our without a contract., So just never give any part of yourself out to anyone. Evvvvvvvvvvveryone wants something from you and something for nothing.
Lesson 101 { well and truly re-learnt and bolstered!.
Now fi SC would get on the ball as delete this thread that I did ask for yesterday and today we would be on a winner@ =)
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11/07/2013 11:58:20 PM · #100 |
So..
If I understand this right, Juliet, you've decided that you're not only going to lose your equipment, but also your ability to trust other people?
That's basically not only allowing him to victimize you, but further victimizing yourself as well. Damn Juliet, I'm sorry for you, and I hope you find some fight (and trust) again soon... |
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