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11/04/2013 08:41:25 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
NOOOOOOOOOOOO god NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that is not him |
Forget that you know its not him. If you are going to get the cops to act before you have to go through the fracas of a trial, thinking it just might possibly be him is your best leverage. It is the only part of this sad story that brings it above the level of a neighbor who borrowed a mower and won't give it back. |
Speaking of, one of my neighbors borrowed my mower this summer then sold it for drugs! I wouldn't have lent it but he claimed he needed to make money to feed his kids. Never again... live and learn. |
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11/04/2013 08:45:44 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
NOOOOOOOOOOOO god NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that is not him |
Forget that you know its not him. If you are going to get the cops to act before you have to go through the fracas of a trial, thinking it just might possibly be him is your best leverage. It is the only part of this sad story that brings it above the level of a neighbor who borrowed a mower and won't give it back. |
Speaking of, one of my neighbors borrowed my mower this summer then sold it for drugs! I wouldn't have lent it but he claimed he needed to make money to feed his kids. Never again... live and learn. |
FYI - I'm about 50% convinced her equipment has already been sold. |
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11/04/2013 09:06:50 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Give it back.
I really do not know what to do, we live in a small community and everyone will see the drama, fall out, it will be the gossip of the year and no one here ever forgets that.
I just do not know what to do, I have missed 2 shoots as I do not have my equipment, I do not want to cause drama as I already have so much in my life right now.
I am just at my wits end. |
Juliet- in your original post you said you live in a small community and everyone will see the drama. That's why I suggested a clergy member or off-duty poiice officer.
If it's a really small community, there is usually one (sometimes more than one) individual who has enough standing to command respect.
Get ahold of that individual and explain the situation, with your paper trail in hand. Enlist that person's support and go after the guy.
If that doesn't work, then sure, go public - or hire Cory.
But, as you say, you have to live in this small town/community. So don't brawl until/unless there is no alternative. |
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11/04/2013 09:25:29 PM · #54 |
Juliet...I'm coming to town (Phoenix right) on Wed...I'll be your back up and muscle (I'm a sturdy woman of the Northwoods (via the South). We have a week to drop him and bury him in the desert...Katie bring your shovel.....wink
Get the lawyer to draw up the papers that usually scares most people into action. Surely you have a friend in law enforcement? Talk to your hair dresser...I'll be she/he knows someone that will help...(I'm a hairdresser and therefore we know a lot of people to contact) |
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11/04/2013 09:29:53 PM · #55 |
| I'll be the bummer here and suggest it's not a good idea of accusing people of stuff and posting links to their FB account and other sites. I'm not saying he deserves better but you have to approach these things with a bit more composure. |
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11/04/2013 09:36:07 PM · #56 |
I am so sorry to read this Juliett. It's hard enough losing a friend but adding everything else is just too much. I agree with talking to the police first. If for nothing else for the proper direction. They will lead you down the right road. If you do go public in your community do it carefully. Don't go out bad mouthing him directly go out asking what people think you should do. Word will spread quickly and you are only asking for guidance and help from people in your community. They will pass on the message and you will be seen as just asking for help.
Think about it. If you go out bad mouthing him someone will go right to him and tell him that you are speaking about him and people will question your story and he will make up a story that some will believe. If you just talk about it, asking what to do the story will spread like wildfire because that is human nature. "Use" the poor you to your full advantage. Make it ALL about you. "I lost 2 jobs" "I have asked for months to get it back"
People can relate to your situation better than "he's an asshole And a thief." Then they think they have only heard one side of the story...use your situation to your advantage.
Best of luck |
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11/04/2013 09:41:53 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
 jomari, what on earth is *hooning*? Do I really want to know? |
Not sure about this my dear, but I do believe it involves drag racing. Mind you, my "strine" ain't all that great.
Ray
PS... I see that Jomari already answered this question... OH well I tried.
Message edited by author 2013-11-04 21:47:05. |
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11/04/2013 09:42:22 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
NOOOOOOOOOOOO god NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that is not him |
Forget that you know its not him. If you are going to get the cops to act before you have to go through the fracas of a trial, thinking it just might possibly be him is your best leverage. It is the only part of this sad story that brings it above the level of a neighbor who borrowed a mower and won't give it back. |
Speaking of, one of my neighbors borrowed my mower this summer then sold it for drugs! I wouldn't have lent it but he claimed he needed to make money to feed his kids. Never again... live and learn. |
FYI - I'm about 50% convinced her equipment has already been sold. |
that was actually my first thought. he has either broken/destroyed it, or sold it off for cash. .. |
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11/04/2013 09:44:18 PM · #59 |
| Reading between the lines in Juliet's first two posts, I'm finding myself wondering if this is happening because this guy felt that she was "using" him and not compensating him adequately? That could be his self-justification, I imagine... |
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11/04/2013 09:46:03 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Surely if he's making any kind of profit at all from using your equipment, for which you have all receipts etc(?) and you have demanded everything back...would that not be profiting from the proceeds of crime? Isn't that actionable?
Maybe it's time to call in the local Hells Angels and ask for their three biggest, baddest 1%rs to pay him a visit. |
I would definitely NOT recommend going that route... every her of "Conspiracy".
Ray |
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11/04/2013 09:47:07 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
NOOOOOOOOOOOO god NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that is not him |
Forget that you know its not him. If you are going to get the cops to act before you have to go through the fracas of a trial, thinking it just might possibly be him is your best leverage. It is the only part of this sad story that brings it above the level of a neighbor who borrowed a mower and won't give it back. |
Speaking of, one of my neighbors borrowed my mower this summer then sold it for drugs! I wouldn't have lent it but he claimed he needed to make money to feed his kids. Never again... live and learn. |
FYI - I'm about 50% convinced her equipment has already been sold. |
that was actually my first thought. he has either broken/destroyed it, or sold it off for cash. .. |
It's the most likely explanation for his extremely odd shift in behavior, and refusal to give it back. I've found that it's almost always the case when this happens.
Juliet dear, for what it's worth, same exact thing happened to me.. (except it was my mother, it was five figures in cash, and I eventually was reduced to bribing the assistant DA into prosecuting and convicting her for felony embezzlement...) |
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11/04/2013 09:52:56 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Reading between the lines in Juliet's first two posts, I'm finding myself wondering if this is happening because this guy felt that she was "using" him and not compensating him adequately? That could be his self-justification, I imagine... |
She also mentions a possible outstanding labor bill.
That's not justification though, period.
Perhaps, if he really has ANY reasonable counter-claim, a mediator could be used. They really are about the most effective resolution to conflicts like this if you're committed to 'doing it the right way'... If he feels that you owe him something, then you have a toehold and can use that to negotiate.
I'm under the suspicion, however, that these are just excuses, and he's simply covering up missing/broken/sold gear, or is really just straight-up robbing her. |
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11/04/2013 10:05:37 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Cory:
She also mentions a possible outstanding labor bill.
That's not justification though, period. |
No, of course it's not justification. I'm just wondering if this might be his SELF-justification, the way he convinced himself it was acceptable to pull this bullshit? |
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11/04/2013 10:18:00 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm just wondering if this might be his SELF-justification, the way he convinced himself it was acceptable to pull this bullshit? |
"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."
--Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) |
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11/04/2013 10:19:01 PM · #65 |
An important step is to get specific about the amount you have lost. Assume 3 Alien Bees at 1600 watts/$360 each (you didn't specify number or power), three Pro-photo umbrellas at $116 each (maybe yours were different number or price), one Tameron 18-270 zoom at $449 (assumption from your profile), one PW II transceiver at $134 totals to just over $2,000 and then add lost income from the missed shoots and then allow an amount for likely legal expenses and more on top for your time dealing with this. Even if I'm guessing high, your loss sounds big enough to help authorities understand the magnitude easily. Tally your actual amounts, using realistic replacement amounts and local prices. Then see what level of legal recourse you have available (in the US, some small claims courts have a maximum amount eligible, higher must go to regular court -- I don't know about Australia).
This person did wrong. Very sorry to hear of it and very sorry for your frustration and pain. Theft is bad enough, but simultaneous betrayal of a "friend" really puts it into a different category of horrible. Of all your options, I'd suggest not doing wrong yourself in seeking redress. As a practical matter, that could end badly for you, perhaps seriously so. More important, it isn't the best route toward comfortably living with yourself afterward. |
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11/04/2013 11:19:52 PM · #66 |
| Confess to not reading the entire thread. How about calling the cops! |
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11/05/2013 03:45:03 AM · #67 |
| Be careful about involving the police where you "lent" him the equipment. That sounds like a civil matter to me. Alleging a crime and not winning in some jurisdictions can leave you open to a counter suit. The best thing to do is consult an attorney in your local jurisdiction. Many will give you an initial consultation for free or a nominal fee, and may write a letter for you. If the matter is a small claim (according to the attorney) you may be able to handle it yourself as long as you don't get too emotional, bring all the documents to the Court and have any witnesses attend with you (Many courts have the trial on the first day you go to court, so be ready to go at the outset. Telling the judge that you didn't know the witness had to come that day, or that the witness wasn't available, or you left your documentation at home, is an easy way to lose a small claim case). Make sure you have copies of one or more written demands for the return of your equipment so he can't claim the two of you had some other arrangement like an exchange of equipment for his services, etc. at the last minute. It's also o.k. in some jurisdictions to have an attorney represent you even in a small claim, but some places discourage that (the attorney you consult can tell you that). Don't threaten things, don't give him an excuse to sue you (by showing up at his shoot and running amok or posting any public notices even though you believe he has wronged you). Don't let your emotions and sense of victimization (however reasonable) cloud your common sense. Again: The best thing to do is consult an attorney in your local jurisdiction. It may end up costing you some money, but at least you will know what is permissible and how to go about it in your local jurisdiction. As you can tell from the thread you are getting all sorts of opinions from people, most of whom likely do not know the law or procedure in your location. Now for the disclaimer: My answer is not intended to be a legal opinion. I don't practice law anywhere. You need to get a local attorney for proper advice. If you do anything other than consult a local attorney you missed the point of this message. Good luck. |
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11/05/2013 03:59:40 AM · #68 |
That really is crappy Juliet. I hope you can get your equipment returned. However, I do have some, er, "Friends" who would be more than willing to "assist" you in this instance.
All you have to do is pay for their return flights from the UK :-)
Good luck lady x
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11/05/2013 05:46:34 AM · #69 |
wow...this is a puker.
here are some suggestions, some related to resolving this situation, some related to preventing this from happening in the first place. some have already been suggested by others and i'm echoing them because they make sense.
1) get your story straight. in your title you refer to this person as a "friend" (my quotes). in your first post, you referred to this person as a "partner". in subsequent posts, you make references to other types of relationships with this person. the outcome here can hinge on semantics. you can be legally screwed by a partner.
1b) put on paper a timeline of your relationship. when you met, what you have done together, who has done what, who has paid for what, and who has been paid how much for what. include all materials and equipment, and all receipts.
2) if you are running a business, run the business. there is a lot more to having a photography business than just owning equipment and getting paid to use it. get contracts and use them. if you don't get them from an attorney, get them reviewed by an attorney. get insurance. keep a maintained list of all your equipment, including serial numbers. use an accountant. yes, this stuff costs money, but that's why you factor these costs into the rates you charge. your rates shouldn't be based on what you think you can ask for or what you think the market will bear, but on what it takes to cover all the costs of business and your profit. and if you are going to have "partners", you really need written and signed partnership agreements...
3) be ready to chalk it up as a loss and move on.
2 AB 1600s? $750
PW+3? $150
was that tamaron your 18-270? that retails for $1300+ by can be had right now through amazon prime for $450. if that's the case, go on and replace it.
umbrella? $25 will cover that.
it looks like $1500 could cover you.
3b & 1c) don't play at business. write a business plan that includes reinvesting in your equipment, as well as maintaining it. have backups for your backups. to succeed in business, you have to identify the things that could stop or kill your business, then plan for them. and charge accordingly. if you don't have the cash or credit to handle this, you haven't been charging enough or marketing enough.
4) if you want drama, go to the theater. otherwise, eliminate it. i tell my kids, "you only have control over TWO THINGS in this life, and TWO THINGS only: how you act, and how you react." when you strip away the drama from any situation and get down to the cold, hard, boring facts, things tend to be a lot more manageable and to make a lot more sense. i also tell me kids, "people are going to talk about you, behind your back, and you cannot stop that. some people, no matter what, are going to say things about you that you don't like, that may be untrue. all you can do to try to control that conversation is to try to give people as little bad stuff as you can to say about you. watch what you say, watch what you do, and hopefully you will create a reputation that makes for positive conversation..."
5) get an attorney that has experience with this type of thing, give him/her all your documentation, and let the attorney handle it. make arrangements to replace the necessary gear (rent if you have to), charge sustainable rates, and move on to a better place.
6) do not take matters into your own hands. do not get someone unknown to him to hire him for a shoot in the desert and have him met by 6 or 7 large friends so that you can show up and have a "chat" with him to explain why you are taking back the gear he "borrowed" from you. (see #4 above).
7) lastly: there are two sides to every story and like it or not, he has his version and he obviously believes his version is truer than yours. i don't doubt you have been wronged, but i think you are going to have to work through #1b above in order to understand where he is coming from and why he believes his version. otherwise, you run the risk of losing a lot more time and money, possibly without a favorable outcome.
good luck with this.
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11/05/2013 09:35:33 AM · #70 |
| Civil matter, consult an attorney before that equipment is long gone. |
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11/05/2013 10:19:46 AM · #71 |
No, he was here for dinner about 3 weeks ago and noticed my irrigation system was leaking, he fiddled with it for 30 mins, broke a wire and came back and fixed the wire. So when I put my foot down and demanded my stuff back, he told me he would bill me for the 45 mins.
Skip, yes he was my friend, but he also worked on shoots that I invited him to, so was a 'working partner or . You are right on the semantics.
He has never paid for anything.
Yes I was stupid not to make a contract , he was my friend, didn't think I needed one, so that is my fault.
Yes, I might well have to just give it up, woke up in a full panic attack last night, which was not pleasant.
as for the monetary amount, that sounds about right.
No would never jump him
Yes will speak to an attorney
I have learnt a very valuable/expensive lesson though. My motto of never trusting anyone is still good and I should not have lapsed.
Thanks guys for all the comments and advice, you really a bunch of great people and an excellent sounding board!
xoxoox |
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11/05/2013 10:35:54 AM · #72 |
Doveryai, no proveryai....
(Trust... But verify) |
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11/05/2013 12:22:32 PM · #73 |
The police will be reluctant to get involved, but who knows, they might be willing to help. It's happened before. Otherwise, you are probably looking at small claims or civil court which, if you prevail, will get you a judgement, which doesn't mean anything unless you enforce it. If you're lucky, he'll return your gear or pay you outright as soon as the case is settled. If he is unable to pay, you can probably work out a repayment schedule. If he just refuses, then you can turn it over to debt collectors. I have some friends in my area that do debt collection on delinquent judgments...they often seize material assets that are then auctioned to settle the debt. Nothing says sweet revenge like knowing the A-hole who wronged you comes out from work to an empty parking space where there car used to be. Or their girlfriend let them into the garage and pointed out the guy's prized motorcycle. They are, of course, free to come to the auction and buy back their stuff.
Good times. |
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11/05/2013 02:18:30 PM · #74 |
Don't go the insurance route without knowing all the side effects. In the U.S., ANY claim on your house insurance raises the price and your ability to obtain insurance. Two claims within seven years can make it virtually impossible to obtain coverage. Understand the insurance game before playing - kind-of like going up against a casino. The game is rigged (and overseen) by them.
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11/05/2013 04:36:34 PM · #75 |
| Judge Judy to the rescue!!!!!! |
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