Masters' Challenge - Explanations and Answers

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/07/2004 10:51:23 PM · #152

Originally posted by ScottK:

*Still pondering how I can possibly live up to the title "master"...*

Show me what you see. Show me your passion. And be patient with me while I try to understand both. :)

Clara

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

09/07/2004 11:33:00 PM · #153

This is going to be one of the most, if not THE MOST, exciting challenge in the history of DPC to date. I can't wait for the voting to start. There will be limited number of entries, so for all those without two ribbons, now's your chance to show that you're a master critiquer. Go through the list of pics one-by-one... slowly, and not just once, but twice and maybe thrice. Critiquers should also try writing in-depth critiques that are considerable attempts to understand the photographers intentions and whether they attained them. This challenge won't only be muscle flexing for those taking the pictures, but for all voters and critiquers...So come one and all to the greatest DPC show on earth!

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

09/08/2004 03:50:39 AM · #154

Many deserving 'masters' will be missing from this challenge.

There are a lot of entries that have scored in the 7s and not made a ribbon (three of mine included). I think a fairer system would be to select a top percentile for qualification - which would at least deliver an element of excitement to see if some new faces appear in the top 3.

David.C

09/08/2004 04:17:39 AM · #155

Originally posted by Imagineer:

I agree completely. It would also have been nice for it to have begun with the actual qualification process.

David

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

09/08/2004 04:43:49 AM · #156

Originally posted by Britannica:

Originally posted by Imagineer:
Many deserving 'masters' will be missing from this challenge.

There are a lot of entries that have scored in the 7s and not made a ribbon (three of mine included). I think a fairer system would be to select a top percentile for qualification - which would at least deliver an element of excitement to see if some new faces appear in the top 3.

I agree completely. It would also have been nice for it to have begun with the actual qualification process.David

I agree also this would have been a much better system. A little commonsense goes a long way.

09/08/2004 07:27:35 AM · #157

Originally posted by Imagineer:

And that prevents some longtime members who have lower averages due to their time on site from competing. If GeneralE were to ribbon three times in the next couple of months (aside from us all checking to see if Issac was submitting pictures on dad's account ;)) he would be excluded from participating due to his overall low average.

Again, this suggestion was all about finding an easy to code solution that would allow us to conduct the experiment. The type of multiple query solutions many have suggested are good ones. But they are a pain in the tush to code.

I understand the frusteration. Just keep in mind that I suggested this. I have not a ribbon to my name, and don't anticipate getting one any time soon.

Clara- Queen of Average! ;)

09/08/2004 07:56:44 AM · #158

Originally posted by blemt:

... And that prevents some longtime members who have lower averages due to their time on site from competing.

Not what I meant. I think the qualification should be changed to anyone who has scored 2 shots in the top 5% percentile of a challenge.

That way the ribbons will not automatically be won by existing ribbon winners. It could be anyone who's taken a very highly rated shot within the month.

Incidentally your concept as it stands already penalises those who have not been around for a long.

09/08/2004 08:09:52 AM · #159

Originally posted by Imagineer:

Incidentally your concept as it stands already penalises those who have not been around for a long.

Ivash. Feb 2004, 7 challenges entered. 2 ribbons as of today.

I think there's a bit more equality than you may think. :)

Clara- and congrats to Ivash.

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

09/08/2004 08:13:24 AM · #160

Originally posted by blemt:

Originally posted by Imagineer:

Incidentally your concept as it stands already penalises those who have not been around for a long.

Ivash. Feb 2004, 7 challenges entered. 2 ribbons as of today.

I think there's a bit more equality than you may think. :)

Clara- and congrats to Ivash.

How many people who have joined since Feb 2004 without 2 ribbons.

09/08/2004 08:25:17 AM · #161

Originally posted by keegbow:

How many people who have joined since Feb 2004 without 2 ribbons.

More importantly- what the heck was this guy thinking?

//www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/08/pitchfork.robbery.ap/index.html

It's a strange world we live in.

Clara- and I'm stranger than most. :)

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

09/08/2004 08:41:33 AM · #162

Originally posted by blemt:

... I think there's a bit more equality than you may think...

A confusing post - but good for him anyway. My point is that, in general, this idea keeps ribbons with the existing ribboners - which is a bit dull in my view. And as people have stated before this site is full of talent, some as yet unrecognised by ribbons, which can only change if they have the opportunity to compete.

You didn't respond to my suggestion by the way (top 5% qualify, etc.). Any thoughts - pros/cons? I can't see any cons so far...

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

09/08/2004 12:41:36 PM · #163

Originally posted by Imagineer:

You didn't respond to my suggestion by the way (top 5% qualify, etc.). Any thoughts - pros/cons? I can't see any cons so far...

There are benchmarks everywhere you turn. There are certain qualifications that must be met to get involved in certain things. This particular challenge has its own qualification benchmark of two ribbons. There are many more ways the benchmark could have been set, as you see in your own suggestions. Benchmarks exist for a reason, which is to limit the number of qualifiers. All the other suggestions for benchmarks that have been posted here serve no purpose other than to include more people in the field. My personal opinion of the reasoning behind the two ribbon requirement is relatively simple. This challenge is intended to be much smaller than the average challenge. There are all sorts of ways the benchmark for entering this challenge could be set up. Changing it would do nothing more than increase the number of entries. I have yet to see a request that tightens the restrictions. Why has no one changing the benchmark to a minimum of 5 ribbons? Anyone with 5 or more ribbons certainly must have a knack for making great photos.

I also understand that those who don't qualify feel left out. I get left out of things every day. I'm not qualified to participate in a lot of things that I would love to do. I can't recall contacting those people and asking them to change their requirements so I could participate though.

I don't see any particular "pros" to your suggestion. I believe the idea behind this challenge is based on a small number of entrants who have exhibited the capability of winning ribbons. I also believe that the challenge is designed to contain a much higher percentage of excellent photographs than an average challenge. Based on this, I can't see how adding extra participants is going to improve that concept.

The "cons" of your idea are that the challenge will be much larger, there will be a lot more photos to evaluate, and it would become just another challenge like the rest we already have. It would be no different.

This reminds me of the public school system here in the US in many ways. We have dumbed ourselves down significantly in the last 30 years or so. We manage to graduate people from high school that can't read. We graduate people who can't give you proper change for your purchase from a $100 bill. Have we improved our society by minimizing the requirements in any way? We have rewarded poor performance and given people a false sense of success.

DPChallenge is just a game. This game, however, has a lot of tremendous benefits if you learn to play it well. Winning ribbons here is the benchmark of excellent performance. There are no rewards for 4th place and down, other than personal satisfaction. The masters challenge is a reward of sorts for those who have managed to achieve two ribbons.

I agree with you that there are a lot of photographers here who have produced excellent photographs and not achieved a ribbon. There is no doubt about this. In fact, most of my favorite photos on this site are not ribbon winners.

My suggestion, which has probably been stated here already, is to let this challenge run as is and take a look a the results. If you are truly here to learn and improve your photography, this particular challenge should be a favorite for you to vote on. You should get to see a lot of great photographs.

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

09/08/2004 12:51:49 PM · #164

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

I think your enthusiasm for the challenge will inspire the Masters'. I wish you had included them in the group you are urging to make the in-depth comments.

midnightride2

Canon EOS-10D

Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

09/08/2004 01:12:13 PM · #165

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

My suggestion, which has probably been stated here already, is to let this challenge run as is and take a look a the results. If you are truly here to learn and improve your photography, this particular challenge should be a favorite for you to vote on. You should get to see a lot of great photographs.

I believe that the cream of the crop always rises to the top and so it is here on this site. I think it is great that they have a challenge like this; it helps us who may be well below the average to see what the top level photographers can do against each other. I joined this site to raise my knowledge and to improve in other areas of photography. I needed to broaden my knowledge in order to learn and improve. I have learned much from such photographers as John, and I believe we can all learn more than just photographer from them. When I am lucky enough to have John comment on one of my entries he is always helpful and never makes one feel as if they are not equal or not worthy to be in the challenge. His posts in the threads are always helpful and worded in a way that makes one take notice to what he is saying. So I look forward to seeing what these guys come up with. But I am a bit curious to see how the ones who finish in the bottom 5% react. Good luck John I am one who is pulling for you.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/08/2004 01:17:39 PM · #166

A considered post John. However, I still take the view that the concept is flawed.

One way to tighten it up and make for interesting challenge would be to have a 7-up contest with only scorers of 7 and over competing. Sometimes the field in a challenge is so poor that the ribbons are not exactly inspiring. In fact, rather than making a habit of the terribly titled 'Master's' challenge they could be varied in this way too.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

09/08/2004 01:50:34 PM · #167

Originally posted by mocabela:

Sometimes all it takes to do better is a little more confidence in your abilities. I think it's easy to feel like you're simply never going to win with what seems like unbeatable competition, and that's not good for inspiration.

Take encouragement and inspiration from the fact that I've qualified for the masters challenge. I in no way see myself as a "master" and I'm not at all in the same class as pretty much everyone else who qualified. But if you work hard at it and pour your heart into it, it is possible to rise above what seems like "unbeatable competition".

Originally posted by mocabela:

A Novices' Challenge (or something to that effect) would also be a good way for people who are still learning to get more exposure by achieving better placements, and perhaps receive more constructive comments.

Just my two cents. I'm not going to complain either way, but I think it'd be fun for those of us who are less skilled to have more of a chance at winning, even if we can't beat the masters in the regular challenges :) It'd be a bit of an honour in itself to be amongst the top novices, I should think.

Something to consider: If you step up and win in a challenge where the "best" have been kept out, have you really won? Or would your win be tainted with the knowledge that it came not against the full field, but it came with a "handicap"? I think, for me, it would feel like a bit of a hollow victory.

I also wonder how many of the "best of the rest" would sit out this kind of a challenge, diluting the competition even more. Some have already been insulted by being excluded from a "masters" challenge - would they be any happier to be relegated to a challenge for the "rabble", the "wanna-be's" and the "also rans" (to use others' language, not mine)? Or would they be insulted further and drop out of that as well?

Just a thought...

Originally posted by mocabela:

I can certainly think of several photographers on here who would fit in that category, or who have just been unlucky with voting and come 1 or 2 placements shy of ribbons, but truly belong in the higher category, and this sort of challenge would give them that chance.

I do agree with you here. I think the criteria could be refined a bit. But that's the experiment aspect of this challenge. They'll work out the kinks, I'm sure.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/08/2004 02:37:33 PM · #168

Originally posted by Imagineer:

One way to tighten it up and make for interesting challenge would be to have a 7-up contest with only scorers of 7 and over competing.

I agree with jmsetzler. This experiment is certainly one valid (and obvious) approach to qualifying a top group. Some deserving photographers have been excluded, but I'm sure they'll qualify for the next one (or even this one by month's end).

Scoring a 7 or better to qualify has its own shortcomings- out of the 100,000+ photos on this site, only 644 have scored 7 or better- and the VAST majority of those have come from the same group of multi-ribbon winners (Heida's last six entries have all been over 7). You'd just be trading a few ribbon-winners for a few 7 shooters. Let's just see how this challenge works out rather than complaining on assumptions.

FWIW regarding the earlier post- I joined in February.

TooCool

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/08/2004 02:40:02 PM · #169

Originally posted by Imagineer:

I think the qualification should be changed to anyone who has scored 2 shots in the top 5% percentile of a challenge.

Then the crybabies who only have scored in the top 6 percentile would be whining about how unfair the selection process is. It's been decided. Live with it... Jeesh!