Is this hypocrisy? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/20/2013 06:35:02 PM · #726

Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
... you can go rent and shoot at a shooting range is a .22LR Rifle anything else requires a permit to shoot.

One way to control the accumulation of huge amounts of ammunition might be to make sales over a certain quanitity be limited only to on-site at shooting ranges, and to control the price to prevent gouging in a monopoly market.

What are you finding wrong with "the accumulation of huge amounts of ammunition"?

That -- outside of destroying targets on a shooting range -- the only purpose of "huge amounts of ammunition" could be to destroy huge numbers of people or animals, either of which is so likely to fall outside the legal limits of either justifiable homocide or hunting regulations as to present an unjustifiable risk to the public safety.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

01/20/2013 06:49:15 PM · #727

Do you only buy enough food for one meal?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/20/2013 07:24:51 PM · #728

Originally posted by David Ey:

Do you only buy enough food for one meal?

No, but I don't drop by the supermarket and grab a side of beef either -- I'd have to make special arrangements for that.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

01/20/2013 07:37:37 PM · #729

I bet you ask for the left side.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/20/2013 08:06:17 PM · #730

Originally posted by David Ey:

I bet you ask for the left side.

You always think you're right ...

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

01/20/2013 10:55:57 PM · #731

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Feds investigate how suspected white supremacist -- a felon -- obtained arsenal

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
This is fantastic, this discovery through law enforcement investigation of a criminal who is hell bent on breaking the law was caught and discovered his illegal cache of firearms and the the existing laws on the books will put him away. I love it! This is how it is supposed to work.

On the contrary, this case demonstrates that current law utterly failed in preventing this man from acquiring firearms. AND, even though the firearms are now in the possession of law enforcement, they can't be traced either:

"Despite a federal law that prohibits convicted felons from buying firearms, Schmidt was still able to acquire his stockpile â�� though authorities donâ��t yet know how he acquired them. Federal agents have been trying for weeks to trace the weapons, but officials said they have so far made little progress."

And this is where we differ. I think that laws are for the law abiding. Criminals will do what they are compelled to do regardless of the law and I infer from your position, that you believe that more laws would have prevented this criminal from acquiring these firearms.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

01/21/2013 11:16:42 AM · #732

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Feds investigate how suspected white supremacist -- a felon -- obtained arsenal

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
This is fantastic, this discovery through law enforcement investigation of a criminal who is hell bent on breaking the law was caught and discovered his illegal cache of firearms and the the existing laws on the books will put him away. I love it! This is how it is supposed to work.

On the contrary, this case demonstrates that current law utterly failed in preventing this man from acquiring firearms. AND, even though the firearms are now in the possession of law enforcement, they can't be traced either:

"Despite a federal law that prohibits convicted felons from buying firearms, Schmidt was still able to acquire his stockpile â�� though authorities donâ��t yet know how he acquired them. Federal agents have been trying for weeks to trace the weapons, but officials said they have so far made little progress."

And this is where we differ. I think that laws are for the law abiding. Criminals will do what they are compelled to do regardless of the law and I infer from your position, that you believe that more laws would have prevented this criminal from acquiring these firearms.

I'm not an expert on this subject, so I don't know if it's more laws, different laws, better enforcement of the laws already on the books. I agree with what BrennanOB said in Post #641: "Riders have been slipped into bills to no longer require annual stock reporting from dealers, to weaken penalties and raise the standard of proof in charging dealers. The ATF is legally limited to inspecting a dealer to a maximum of once a year, and their budget only allows an inspection every 17 years. We know that 52% of all guns used in crimes originate from 1% of gun dealers, but the NRA is making sure that We The People are allowed to do nothing to close them down." And, "I doubt those who do not own guns know that the careful background check that applicants are put through before they are allowed to purchase a gun, last less than a day. Background check records are legally required to be destroyed after 24 hours. That the ATF are not allowed to keep computer records of gun registration, all records are limited to paper, and nothing is allowed to be shared with any other agency to help investigations. So in reality the weapons of war that are on our streets are not the primary problem; it is the fact that those who are opposed to our laws have been allowed to weaken the enforcement mechanism to the point that the ATF has virtually no power to enforce gun laws, and yet are the only agency allowed to enforce those laws. They are well funded and free to act to enforce tobacco and alcohol laws, but are handcuffed by the NRA when it comes to firearms"...

I suggest you go back and re-read his entire post.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

01/21/2013 01:14:27 PM · #733

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Why don't you fix your post?.....and this one too.

Message edited by author 2013-01-21 13:15:48.

01/21/2013 01:22:31 PM · #734

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
... you can go rent and shoot at a shooting range is a .22LR Rifle anything else requires a permit to shoot.

One way to control the accumulation of huge amounts of ammunition might be to make sales over a certain quanitity be limited only to on-site at shooting ranges, and to control the price to prevent gouging in a monopoly market.

What are you finding wrong with "the accumulation of huge amounts of ammunition"?

That -- outside of destroying targets on a shooting range -- the only purpose of "huge amounts of ammunition" could be to destroy huge numbers of people or animals, either of which is so likely to fall outside the legal limits of either justifiable homocide or hunting regulations as to present an unjustifiable risk to the public safety.

I always stay stocked up on ammo. Every weapon that I own has a small arsenal of ammo with it. It is not uncommon for me to shoot 5 or 6 boxes of ammo in a day. (with the exception of my Mosin-Nagant...That rifle kicks like hell)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/21/2013 01:46:58 PM · #735

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

I always stay stocked up on ammo. Every weapon that I own has a small arsenal of ammo with it.

"Small" is the operative word. Just as an example, I can see having a box of 100 cartridges/weapon on hand for self-defense or hunting purposes, but not 1000/weapon ... if you're going shooting at a range you can buy the extra cartridges there (if my suggestion was in effect) at a "reasonable" cost (say, the same or less as if you ordered off the web or at your local gun shop).

01/21/2013 01:53:48 PM · #736

I usually try to keep 500 rounds per weapon. Sometimes more.....but usually around 500

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/21/2013 01:59:14 PM · #737

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

I usually try to keep 500 rounds per weapon. Sometimes more.....but usually around 500

Well, in my personal opinion that's more than I'd like to see, but the idea is more important than the specific cut-off number. For example, would you agree that 10,000 rounds/weapon is excessive, and that 10 rounds/weapon ridiculously inadequate? Somewhere in between should be a number to which everyone can agree.

01/21/2013 02:07:59 PM · #738

I don't think ammo should be limited to a number..... If an individual wants 10,000 rounds for what ever reason. He/she should be able to keep it.

Keep in mind there are also people that like to reload. Usuallt they will load way more than they actuall need. Ive got a buddy that will spend a full day reloading ammo. I would imagine he reloads prob close to 5000 rounds... who know maybee more.

01/21/2013 03:10:45 PM · #739

It's not at all unusual to put 1000 rd through a gun during a day at the range. After all practice makes perfect. If it's easy for me to put shots in the 10 ring on the range because of that practice, I have that much less to worry about when taking a shot the field.

Also, my usual range is a gun club consisting of volunteers. There's no staff or central office to rent guns or buy ammo for a day of shooting. It's just not practical to expect that they will be able to open a retail operation. I've used other ranges that are even more rudimentary. Just steel plates/gongs set up at paced off distances with a hill for a backstop.

01/21/2013 03:12:46 PM · #740

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I always stay stocked up on ammo. Every weapon that I own has a small arsenal of ammo with it.

"Small" is the operative word. Just as an example, I can see having a box of 100 cartridges/weapon on hand for self-defense or hunting purposes, but not 1000/weapon ... if you're going shooting at a range you can buy the extra cartridges there (if my suggestion was in effect) at a "reasonable" cost (say, the same or less as if you ordered off the web or at your local gun shop).

Why? If I get a bargain by purchasing 5k at a time, it only makes sense to stock up.

01/21/2013 03:18:03 PM · #741

Originally posted by Spork99:

To add to this. Can you expect for the range to carry a supply of every type of ammunition made. What happens if you are shooting a rare weapon. My range is run by the police department. I will also go to my family's land and shoot

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/21/2013 03:22:38 PM · #742

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by Spork99:
It's not at all unusual to put 1000 rd through a gun during a day at the range. After all practice makes perfect. If it's easy for me to put shots in the 10 ring on the range because of that practice, I have that much less to worry about when taking a shot the field.

Also, my usual range is a gun club consisting of volunteers. There's no staff or central office to rent guns or buy ammo for a day of shooting. It's just not practical to expect that they will be able to open a retail operation. I've used other ranges that are even more rudimentary. Just steel plates/gongs set up at paced off distances with a hill for a backstop.

To add to this. Can you expect for the range to carry a supply of every type of ammunition made. What happens if you are shooting a rare weapon. My range is run by the police department. I will also go to my family's land and shoot

The ranges where I shoot are not run by the police department, however, many members are part of local law enforcement and the club routinely makes their facilities available to law enforcement for training.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

01/21/2013 03:27:07 PM · #743

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

The way it is handled in some countries is you can only have ammo shipped to ranges. They store your ammo and dole it out to you as you need it for use on their range. Sort of like how some high end restaurants keep wine for patrons.

The difficulty is connecting ammo stocks to any way of reducing a crime. Sure it sounds weird when some crazy shots up a town and has a few thousand rounds at home, but he only had a few hundred with him, so the thousand rounds have as little to do with the risk of mayhem as any other product he bought in bulk and stored at home. It is worth looking at, but the connection between bulk sales and crime is pretty tenuous.

01/21/2013 03:36:17 PM · #744

The flaw with the range "keeping" my ammo. That has effectively eliminated any home protection, hunting, or target practice that doesnt take place at the range. There are lots of times when I go out shooting on the farm. Unfortunately I cant shoot in my back yard. (the land lord might not understand that)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/21/2013 03:38:40 PM · #745

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

The flaw with the range "keeping" my ammo. That has effectively eliminated any home protection, hunting, or target practice that doesnt take place at the range.

They can hold whatever is over the number necessary for self-defense or hunting.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/21/2013 03:55:32 PM · #746

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

In Israel I think you get 50 rounds a year, and yes, it does limit hunting and open area shooting (which are not too plentiful in Israel anyway). If you need more than 50 rounds to defend your home, you are facing invasion. Get down to your local armory and sign up.

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

01/21/2013 04:36:26 PM · #747

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:
The flaw with the range "keeping" my ammo. That has effectively eliminated any home protection, hunting, or target practice that doesnt take place at the range.

They can hold whatever is over the number necessary for self-defense or hunting.

I need 2k rounds for target shooting out on the farm...

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

01/21/2013 04:37:49 PM · #748

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:
The flaw with the range "keeping" my ammo. That has effectively eliminated any home protection, hunting, or target practice that doesnt take place at the range.

They can hold whatever is over the number necessary for self-defense or hunting.

I need 2k rounds for target shooting out on the farm...

Sounds like you need better aim.

01/21/2013 04:49:20 PM · #749

I don't think limiting ammo is a viable solution. If a psyco leaves with his allotted "50" rounds....He could still do a ton of damage.