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11/07/2012 08:13:53 PM · #326 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Then explain how people making millions pay taxes at a lower rate than most middle class people do and why that's fair.
Look at the tax rates on the wealthy during the 1950's, one of the most proserous times in our country's history. Taxes on the wealthy topped out at 90%...they still made a lot of money, the world didn't stop spinning.
If you reap a greater reward from the liberties this coutry affords you, you should be prepared to pay back a bit more. |
The reason this worked so well is that business owners who wanted to pay a lower tax would pour money back into their businesses, by building up and by hiring more workers. This money they could write off. The more money they poured back into their businesses, the less they had to pay in taxes. It was a win / win for the business, and for the unemployment rate. One income in those days sustained a family of four quite well.
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11/07/2012 08:19:55 PM · #327 |
Well, to start with, there's that business about capital gains being taxed at half the rate of "earned income" (wages). Then there are the special tax provisions available to certain corporations ($6 billion for oil companies alone) not available to "small businesses" or individuals. Of course, with only $40 billion in or so profits, the oil companies are in desperate need of governement assistance to ensure their survival ...
Virtually every provision of the tax code is skewed to the benefit of those with a lot of money, and with accountants and lawyers who can help them shield it from taxation.
There is no question that since the 1970s a large proportion of the country's wealth has shifted from the poor and middle class to the very wealthy. I see no overriding public interest in government supporting or perpetuating such a plan. |
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11/07/2012 09:51:41 PM · #328 |
i still don't see how its unfair.
so far you've just said thats its easy for the rich to keep making money.
so what is stopping say my kids or your kids or anyone from being wealthy? isn't that the point? that anyone can be wealthy? nobody has an unequal opportunity, some may have to work harder than others, but its not like i couldn't be extremely wealthy if i chose to.
its my ow fault, for instance i cold be a successful photographer but I choose to spend my time elseware i don't sell my services every chance i get, i'd rather shoot for personal fun, play with my kids, read a book, advance my toward my engineering degree, work out, argue on message boards, etc. I could have my engineering degree by now, but i choose not to quit my job and force my family to live without to accomplish it sooner, again entirely my choice.
the point is nothing is holding me back, but me. i see countless people in this country with the same opportunities who choose not to because its hard or they rather watch tv or play video games or whatever they do. I see people in my office building who treat work like its a hassle.
so the rich are able to get richer, we let them take advantage of us. its too easy to blame the rich. everyone wants change and no one want to change.
@kelli, walmart doesn't pay their employees enough? who's fault is it, their greedy nature or the fact that they can hire non-thinkers who accept it. So go to school, find another job, work two. do what you need to advance your career. or just complain about the greedy corporation bleeding us dry.
sorry but i cant honestly sit here and accept the notion that the greedy rich guys are keeping us all down. it takes two to tango. we are keeping ourselves down. we are failing our education system by not taking advantage of it, how many countries would kill to have our education system yet the kids treat it like a joke,is it the school fault or the fact the kids choose not to learn. how many people in other countries would kill for the opportunities that many people here squander?
but whatever, sorry for the rant but i just cant bring myself to blame anyone but me for my failings. i wish others would do the same.
Message edited by author 2012-11-07 21:56:42. |
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11/07/2012 10:24:56 PM · #329 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i still don't see how its unfair.
so far you've just said thats its easy for the rich to keep making money.
so what is stopping say my kids or your kids or anyone from being wealthy? isn't that the point? that anyone can be wealthy? nobody has an unequal opportunity, some may have to work harder than others, but its not like i couldn't be extremely wealthy if i chose to.
its my ow fault, for instance i cold be a successful photographer but I choose to spend my time elseware i don't sell my services every chance i get, i'd rather shoot for personal fun, play with my kids, read a book, advance my toward my engineering degree, work out, argue on message boards, etc. I could have my engineering degree by now, but i choose not to quit my job and force my family to live without to accomplish it sooner, again entirely my choice.
the point is nothing is holding me back, but me. i see countless people in this country with the same opportunities who choose not to because its hard or they rather watch tv or play video games or whatever they do. I see people in my office building who treat work like its a hassle.
so the rich are able to get richer, we let them take advantage of us. its too easy to blame the rich. everyone wants change and no one want to change.
@kelli, walmart doesn't pay their employees enough? who's fault is it, their greedy nature or the fact that they can hire non-thinkers who accept it. So go to school, find another job, work two. do what you need to advance your career. or just complain about the greedy corporation bleeding us dry.
sorry but i cant honestly sit here and accept the notion that the greedy rich guys are keeping us all down. it takes two to tango. we are keeping ourselves down. we are failing our education system by not taking advantage of it, how many countries would kill to have our education system yet the kids treat it like a joke,is it the school fault or the fact the kids choose not to learn. how many people in other countries would kill for the opportunities that many people here squander?
but whatever, sorry for the rant but i just cant bring myself to blame anyone but me for my failings. i wish others would do the same. |
A true demonstration of compassion at its best.
I will work on the premise that you have never been poor... I mean really poor, because if you had you would realize just how inane your generalizations are. I found this comment particularly appalling " they can hire non-thinkers who accept it " When one is dirt poor, rejection of a job prospect is not at the forefront of your thought process.
Schooling you say... ever consider that if you come from a wealthy family that you really do not have to worry about pesky things like tuition. Ever notice who the poor schmucks are that end up being cannon fodder during those pesky things called wars... I will give you a hint... it ain't the rich folks because they are too busy building and selling the arsenal that will ultimately blow those poor bastards to kingdom come.
I could go on but I won't... and in answer to the next question some might consider, NO I am not currently poor... but I sure as hell remember when I was... One never forgets POOR.
Ray
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11/07/2012 10:33:14 PM · #330 |
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries.
Message edited by author 2012-11-07 22:53:37. |
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11/07/2012 11:05:46 PM · #331 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries. |
Yep... we wouldn't want compassion to jumble up your lack of logic now would we?
I would hate to break the news to you, but poor is poor regardless of where you live...and I would wager that I have visited more states in the USA than the vast majority of Americans and that as such, I most certainly do not need your assistance in arriving at a conclusion relative to the opportunities in America.
... and NO, I was not poor forever, and yes I did ascend to a higher social class and surprises of surprises, I truly do not mind or resent the taxes I pay, a factor which could possibly be attributable to the fact that I still vividly recall being poor.
I most certainly do not envy the rich, but am not so blind as to believe that they do not reap a host of benefits that the rank and file pay for.
Just another man's view.
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-11-07 23:07:12.
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11/08/2012 10:25:38 AM · #332 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Romney ran a campaign entirely based on fixing the budget but never provided any details as to how he was going to do it. It's amazing it was as close as it was. |
True. On the other hand, the Republicans had every advantage going into this election -- unemployment above 8 percent, more money than they could spend (they literally had so much money that after they'd purchased all the air time in some states, they started advertising in states like NY where their ads would have very little, if any, effect), and voter suppression tactics (which I think backfired in a big way) -- and STILL they couldn't beat Obama OR win any of the Senate races where their goal was to oust the Democratic incumbent. It's a beautiful thing that the majority of voters actually rejected all their ugliness and bullshit. My faith is (somewhat) restored. |
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11/08/2012 10:37:08 AM · #333 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries. |
If all that you say is true regarding the want and desire to be rich, wouldn't it trouble you, and the staunchest of free market capitalists alike, to learn that the USA has fallen from the ranks of the most mobile(ability to change social rank and get "rich") far behind many other socialist and otherwise "faulty" governments?
What say you to our increasing lack of ability to get rich, to break into the upper echelons? What is the cause in your mind, lazy welfare codependence? Teachers, unions, they caused it?
Message edited by author 2012-11-08 10:39:07. |
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11/08/2012 11:25:08 AM · #334 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries. |
Yep... we wouldn't want compassion to jumble up your lack of logic now would we?
I would hate to break the news to you, but poor is poor regardless of where you live...and I would wager that I have visited more states in the USA than the vast majority of Americans and that as such, I most certainly do not need your assistance in arriving at a conclusion relative to the opportunities in America.
... and NO, I was not poor forever, and yes I did ascend to a higher social class and surprises of surprises, I truly do not mind or resent the taxes I pay, a factor which could possibly be attributable to the fact that I still vividly recall being poor.
I most certainly do not envy the rich, but am not so blind as to believe that they do not reap a host of benefits that the rank and file pay for.
Just another man's view.
Ray |
Nice sentiments. One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
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11/08/2012 11:37:58 AM · #335 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries. |
Yep... we wouldn't want compassion to jumble up your lack of logic now would we?
I would hate to break the news to you, but poor is poor regardless of where you live...and I would wager that I have visited more states in the USA than the vast majority of Americans and that as such, I most certainly do not need your assistance in arriving at a conclusion relative to the opportunities in America.
... and NO, I was not poor forever, and yes I did ascend to a higher social class and surprises of surprises, I truly do not mind or resent the taxes I pay, a factor which could possibly be attributable to the fact that I still vividly recall being poor.
I most certainly do not envy the rich, but am not so blind as to believe that they do not reap a host of benefits that the rank and file pay for.
Just another man's view.
Ray |
Nice sentiments. One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
Cory you seem to harp on this part all the time. But most states have time limits for welfare. I know NJ's is 2 years, here's an article about how that works... //www.mdrc.org/state-welfare-time-limit-policies-and-their-effects-families
Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached a time limit; at least 93,000 families have had their welfare case closed due to a time limit, and another 38,000 have had their benefits reduced. Most of the case closures have been in a few states with time limits of fewer than 60 months. As of December 2001, families had begun reaching the federal time limit in fewer than half the states, and relatively few families had reached the 60-month limit in those states; most recipients do not remain on welfare for 60 consecutive months.
Message edited by author 2012-11-08 11:39:52. |
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11/08/2012 11:47:38 AM · #336 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries. |
Yep... we wouldn't want compassion to jumble up your lack of logic now would we?
I would hate to break the news to you, but poor is poor regardless of where you live...and I would wager that I have visited more states in the USA than the vast majority of Americans and that as such, I most certainly do not need your assistance in arriving at a conclusion relative to the opportunities in America.
... and NO, I was not poor forever, and yes I did ascend to a higher social class and surprises of surprises, I truly do not mind or resent the taxes I pay, a factor which could possibly be attributable to the fact that I still vividly recall being poor.
I most certainly do not envy the rich, but am not so blind as to believe that they do not reap a host of benefits that the rank and file pay for.
Just another man's view.
Ray |
Nice sentiments. One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
Cory you seem to harp on this part all the time. But most states have time limits for welfare. I know NJ's is 2 years, here's an article about how that works... //www.mdrc.org/state-welfare-time-limit-policies-and-their-effects-families
Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached a time limit; at least 93,000 families have had their welfare case closed due to a time limit, and another 38,000 have had their benefits reduced. Most of the case closures have been in a few states with time limits of fewer than 60 months. As of December 2001, families had begun reaching the federal time limit in fewer than half the states, and relatively few families had reached the 60-month limit in those states; most recipients do not remain on welfare for 60 consecutive months. |
Yes, those 17 states are doing something right. The 23 with limits longer than 60 months, and the 10 without any limits are the problem.
FYI, I say welfare, but I'm really including quite a bit more, including crap SSDI claims, and other forms of social program abuse.
Honestly, I think even 60 months is a bit long, five years? That's basically 25% of a full length career. If you can't change your circumstances in two years of effort there's a problem.
Besides all of this, the question which I asked wasn't answered by your post. Please don't ignore my questions when responding to my posts, it honestly bothers me, as I find it very disrespectful.
Message edited by author 2012-11-08 11:50:43. |
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11/08/2012 11:50:40 AM · #337 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
What say you to our increasing lack of ability to get rich, to break into the upper echelons? What is the cause in your mind, lazy welfare codependence? Teachers, unions, they caused it? |
imo, i think we ourselves caused it.
we want to blame the teachers and the unions, lack of funding in public schools, etc but in reality i feel we squander our own opportunities.
explain to me how we can pour money into supposedly underprivileged (predominately black and Latino )districts and they still fail. lets face it those kids dont want to learn or care to and those that do can't from distraction. Their parents dont encourage them to excel, their peers continuously knock them down, anyone who escapes that system usually has extraordinary self worth and drive or they have a special talent that alos them to transcend the system they just blame their situation, not themselves.
looking at privileged system (suburban white) they fare better becuase there is more parental over sight, however still a lack of drive, from my own experience, even now in college i see all the young kids who just dont give a crap, they are in school becuase they are supposed to be. This is especially rampant in classes the are more general education, the specialized courses weed them out. Tardiness, lack of discipline, hell i was the same way when i went to college right out of high school. We blame the school system and funding. i have friends who are teachers and the the ones who teach secondary education are miserable, they cant get through to the kids, so they themselves become complacent.
The upper class (private schooling) have a reputation for being better but are are they? i know lots of people who went to private school and have not fared any better in life than myself, i also know people who went to public school who fared better than them. I think private schools do fare better in underprivileged communities when the students are pulled away from the social distractions they would face in the those urban public schools. the only reason i would ever send my kids to private school would be to get them in a safer environment if moving wasn't an option.
now take a look ate the Asian Indian ethnic groups who attend schooling in the US, why do they far exceed what the White/black/Latino communities are able to do? could it be a better home environment focused on education, more drive to excel? they certainly aren't getting special privilege than any one else isn't getting.
when i voted for Obama last term I had hoped that he would have brought an inspiration to this country that proved that anyone could in fact make it, seriously a black man president of the US? you cant ask for a better role model. he focus on better home values and drive. instead we get folks still complacent, they only vote becuase he's black, in fact that's why Obama won again, he took the entire minority vote, all of them. A vote against the rich white man.
im worried becuase i thought if anyone could change our mindset it was him. he didn't. i dont know how to fix it, i can only offer what i feel is the problem and that there is always someone else to blame.
maybe i'm way off base, but that's what i see.
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11/08/2012 11:59:28 AM · #338 |
Originally posted by Cory:
One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
I don't think it's the "job" of social welfare programs to "encourage" people to work harder and "move up socially". Social welfare, conceptually, is a safety net erected by a relatively evolved society to create a baseline beneath which no citizen has to sink. It's fundamentally humanitarian. At the opposite extreme from the "welfare state" on the scale would be the so-called "third-world countries" with massive numbers of people falling through the cracks and subsisting in abject poverty with absolutely no hope of advancement for them or their families.
If we want to "encourage people to work harder" in order to "advance themselves socially", we need to provide an economic climate that enables this sort of advancement for all. We currently don't have that. Our priorities are completely screwed up. But the solution to poverty in America is NOT to rip away the safety net and tell everyone "sink or swim!" That's not going to work. A better solution is to build a viable swimming pool first. |
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11/08/2012 12:04:40 PM · #339 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Cory:
One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
I don't think it's the "job" of social welfare programs to "encourage" people to work harder and "move up socially". Social welfare, conceptually, is a safety net erected by a relatively evolved society to create a baseline beneath which no citizen has to sink. It's fundamentally humanitarian. At the opposite extreme from the "welfare state" on the scale would be the so-called "third-world countries" with massive numbers of people falling through the cracks and subsisting in abject poverty with absolutely no hope of advancement for them or their families.
If we want to "encourage people to work harder" in order to "advance themselves socially", we need to provide an economic climate that enables this sort of advancement for all. We currently don't have that. Our priorities are completely screwed up. But the solution to poverty in America is NOT to rip away the safety net and tell everyone "sink or swim!" That's not going to work. A better solution is to build a viable swimming pool first. |
I agree with you 100%. My only real concern is that we've traded the pool for the net. |
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11/08/2012 12:05:15 PM · #340 |
This article is a great read. Even though I did not write it, I could have. The views expressed in this article follow my views exactly. Enjoy
Article
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11/08/2012 12:20:41 PM · #341 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
This article is a great read. Even though I did not write it, I could have. The views expressed in this article follow my views exactly. Enjoy
Article |
Judge Napolitano is a relative of my closest coworker. I usually enjoy what he has to say, even if that article is a little bit over-the-top. |
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11/08/2012 12:23:07 PM · #342 |
also, based on the logic keep hearing in this thread i should just be teaching my kids that they have no shot because we arent rich.
I'll just tell my daughter, "you know honey its great to get good grades but really dont bother you have no real shot since we arent already rich so, why bother. just skate by, you are only going to end up with a job that some rich guy is going to be using your labor to fund his extravagant lifestyle so dont work to hard, you dont want to wear yourself out, but hey, there is good news, the government will tax the shit out of him and use that money to fund all kinds of crap they they think needs it. what kind of crap? don't worry yourself about it, they are super efficient at everything so they will make sure it goes to the right spot. they probably appointed a whole committee to oversee it and a everything. so see you dont ever want to be rich either, not that you could anyway, just saying, becuase the government will take what they need when they need it, well not if you are weathly and have influence those guys run the whole show, but the just hardworking rich people with no influence, which you wont have, and everyone will hate you for what you have even though you didn't do anything but work hard. No, you'd be much happier just skating by paycheck to paycheck, in some dead end job watching the hard workers get taken to the cleaners. But dot worry, there wont be any hard workers left soon, becuase they are tired of getting taken taken advantage of, but you you'll have really, really rich people in power who will promise to give anything you need and take care of you so long as you keep voting for them. Doesn't that sound great!"
i hope that sounds as idiotic to you as it does to me. |
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11/08/2012 12:27:12 PM · #343 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
also, based on the logic keep hearing in this thread i should just be teaching my kids that they have no shot because we arent rich.
I'll just tell my daughter, "you know honey its great to get good grades but really dont bother you have no real shot since we arent already rich so, why bother. just skate by, you are only going to end up with a job that some rich guy is going to be using your labor to fund his extravagant lifestyle so dont work to hard, you dont want to wear yourself out, but hey, there is good news, the government will tax the shit out of him and use that money to fund all kinds of crap they they think needs it. what kind of crap? don't worry yourself about it, they are super efficient at everything so they will make sure it goes to the right spot. they probably appointed a whole committee to oversee it and a everything. so see you dont ever want to be rich either, not that you could anyway, just saying, becuase the government will take what they need when they need it, well not if you are weathly and have influence those guys run the whole show, but the just hardworking rich people with no influence, which you wont have, and everyone will hate you for what you have even though you didn't do anything but work hard. No, you'd be much happier just skating by paycheck to paycheck, in some dead end job watching the hard workers get taken to the cleaners. But dot worry, there wont be any hard workers left soon, becuase they are tired of getting taken taken advantage of, but you you'll have really, really rich people in power who will promise to give anything you need and take care of you so long as you keep voting for them. Doesn't that sound great!"
i hope that sounds as idiotic to you as it does to me. |
Actually, it seems like pretty solid advice. You might additionally advise her to start working on her "batshit crazy" act now though, since she'll need to have it well developed when she eventually applies for SSDI.
Message edited by author 2012-11-08 12:27:38. |
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11/08/2012 12:29:33 PM · #344 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
so what is stopping say my kids or your kids or anyone from being wealthy? isn't that the point? that anyone can be wealthy? nobody has an unequal opportunity, some may have to work harder than others, but its not like i couldn't be extremely wealthy if i chose to. |
You can pretty much put yourself in a position to be comfortable with hard work, determination, and a modicum of luck, but extremely wealthy? Not likely.
I also wonder if you're aware of the sacrifices you must make for a career......what do you want to do? Work to live, or live to work? If you want a family, you'd better already be on the good career path you want, because if you abandon your family for your work, in the end you'll lose them.
You need to also have something special to offer if you want any guarantees of succeeding. I had my own business, in a serious niche......I was one of a very few British car shops.......British cars are strange, and most mechanics are either afraid of, or disgusted by them. I loved them, and was very good at what I did. I never made squat , though.....I had more work than I knew what to do with an 18-24 month waiting list, but it didn't pan out......it wore me out after about twenty years. Why? Because I'm a *terrible* business manager.
There is no free money tree out there.
Originally posted by mike_311:
its my own fault, for instance i cold be a successful photographer but I choose to spend my time elseware i don't sell my services every chance i get, i'd rather shoot for personal fun, play with my kids, read a book, advance my toward my engineering degree, work out, argue on message boards, etc. |
And just how many serious money jobs do you think are out there for professional photographers? First......if you're going to make serious money, you need to be seriously good. You'll need an in to a money ticket, i.e a relative that owns a string of real-estate companies that needs YOU to do all their property shootings, or some other kind of deal where you have an edge over the next guy. Otherwise, you have ALL the rest of us out here to contend with, and who will be in direct competition with you for EVERY photography dollar. Everybody and their brother with a high-end P&S or a low-end DSLR can do commercial work without too much in the way of specific skills. Why should anyone pay you a lot more? A lot of people take care of work that used to be hired out themselves these days. When I started here at the John Deere dealer where I work, they had me shooting the used tractors & equipment that they'd put up on eBay and other places.......the owner bought a good P&S and now does it himself. It wasn't like they were paying me extra, it was just simpler for him since there are also four stores. I have friends that are realtors who shoot their own property listings, and I was talking to the owner of the sushi restaurant I ate at last Saturday night, admiring the food shots he was doing for his website. They were quite good! There is less of a need for professional photography now than ever.
Originally posted by mike_311:
I could have my engineering degree by now, but i choose not to quit my job and force my family to live without to accomplish it sooner, again entirely my choice. |
An engineering degree sure doesn't guarantee you a job, much less a good one. What branch? Civil? Mechanical? Electronics? Aerospace? Can you say tuition? Who's paying for that? If you don't have some serious education, and you're "just" a civil engineer, you can find yourself designing culverts and sewers for the township.
Originally posted by mike_311:
the point is nothing is holding me back, but me. i see countless people in this country with the same opportunities who choose not to because its hard or they rather watch tv or play video games or whatever they do. I see people in my office building who treat work like its a hassle. |
I really think you need a serious dose of reality, my friend. Heart, soul, a good attitude, are not all it takes. Education, an "in" with a company, or something so unique that everyone wants it....(Can you say Bill Gates?). Point is, yeah.......we may be the land of opportunity, but it's still not a free ride.
Originally posted by mike_311:
so the rich are able to get richer, we let them take advantage of us. its too easy to blame the rich. everyone wants change and no one want to change. |
They truly are a problem......the uber-rich also have power. And power sways votes........like the ones to elect that senator who is going to give your giant manufacturing company a tax break.
Originally posted by mike_311:
@kelli, walmart doesn't pay their employees enough? who's fault is it, their greedy nature or the fact that they can hire non-thinkers who accept it. So go to school, find another job, work two. do what you need to advance your career. or just complain about the greedy corporation bleeding us dry. |
Just FYI......I used to feel the same way when all the Wal-Mart scuttle-butt started circulating. Talk to some of the employees some time. I'm not talking about the ones that gripe. I know quite a few who had *NO* job before they built the nearby Wal-Mart. Another little factoid that I found out accidentally.......in Maryland, Wal-mart is the single largest employer in the state. So.....where do those folks go if they fold up and move on?
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11/08/2012 12:31:09 PM · #345 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
oh so wait you weren't poor forever? you were able to ascend to a higher social class?
edit: with respect to compassion, i try to keep emotion out of my thinking, it jumbles up the logic, or lack of...
also aren't you Canadian? unless you in the US i'm not commenting on the opportunities afforded in other countries. |
Yep... we wouldn't want compassion to jumble up your lack of logic now would we?
I would hate to break the news to you, but poor is poor regardless of where you live...and I would wager that I have visited more states in the USA than the vast majority of Americans and that as such, I most certainly do not need your assistance in arriving at a conclusion relative to the opportunities in America.
... and NO, I was not poor forever, and yes I did ascend to a higher social class and surprises of surprises, I truly do not mind or resent the taxes I pay, a factor which could possibly be attributable to the fact that I still vividly recall being poor.
I most certainly do not envy the rich, but am not so blind as to believe that they do not reap a host of benefits that the rank and file pay for.
Just another man's view.
Ray |
Nice sentiments. One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
Cory you seem to harp on this part all the time. But most states have time limits for welfare. I know NJ's is 2 years, here's an article about how that works... //www.mdrc.org/state-welfare-time-limit-policies-and-their-effects-families
Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached a time limit; at least 93,000 families have had their welfare case closed due to a time limit, and another 38,000 have had their benefits reduced. Most of the case closures have been in a few states with time limits of fewer than 60 months. As of December 2001, families had begun reaching the federal time limit in fewer than half the states, and relatively few families had reached the 60-month limit in those states; most recipients do not remain on welfare for 60 consecutive months. |
Yes, those 17 states are doing something right. The 23 with limits longer than 60 months, and the 10 without any limits are the problem.
FYI, I say welfare, but I'm really including quite a bit more, including crap SSDI claims, and other forms of social program abuse.
Honestly, I think even 60 months is a bit long, five years? That's basically 25% of a full length career. If you can't change your circumstances in two years of effort there's a problem.
Besides all of this, the question which I asked wasn't answered by your post. Please don't ignore my questions when responding to my posts, it honestly bothers me, as I find it very disrespectful. |
You didn't ask me a question, which is why I didn't answer one. And, I was just asking you one. I was thinking maybe you were stuck in a time warp or something, as things have been different around here for quite some time. After looking it up, I did realize not all state welfare reforms are the same. But still, it seems with a federal time limit of 5 years, most people can't possibly be on it forever. As for SSDI, the only people I personally know that have it/or had it have all deserved it. My father in law (who's been gone for some time) worked 2 & 3 jobs his whole life, until he got run over by a mack truck crushing his legs. He went on SSDI. My grandfather who was struck by a high pressure hose from his liquid hydrogen truck and had massive injuries also received it for a few years until his normal SS kicked in. My aunt who is so deformed from a crippling disease she can't move receives it (SSI). My cousin who had her first open heart surgery when she was 10 received it from when she was 18 until she was 30 (also SSI), when she started a part time job at Ross. She now makes a little more money but has no medical insurance and major heart problems. And myself, who after working 27 years (also sometimes 2 & 3 jobs at once) had two heart attacks, one massive that caused a lot of damage. I don't think any of us are/were gaming the system. I have days I can't get out of bed. Days when I struggle to get down or up the stairs. And all I seem to read about is the anger over so many freaking people that you and others believe are frauds without a shred of evidence. Maybe you know them, I certainly don't. And if I did, I'd turn them in. You already said you wouldn't, so you are as much a problem as they are. |
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11/08/2012 12:33:54 PM · #346 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
also, based on the logic keep hearing in this thread i should just be teaching my kids that they have no shot because we arent rich. |
No......that's not the point. But don't paint them any unrealistic pictures. That old, "You can be anybody you want......maybe even the President some day.".
Yeah.....you COULD, but it's unlikely. That doesn't mean roll up in a ball and give up, though.
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11/08/2012 12:35:49 PM · #347 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Yeah.....you COULD, but it's unlikely. That doesn't mean roll up in a ball and give up, though. |
now you are getting it.
and the less people that dont roll up in a ball and give up, the greater this country will be.
Message edited by author 2012-11-08 12:43:36. |
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11/08/2012 12:40:53 PM · #348 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Cory:
Besides all of this, the question which I asked wasn't answered by your post. Please don't ignore my questions when responding to my posts, it honestly bothers me, as I find it very disrespectful. |
You didn't ask me a question, which is why I didn't answer one. |
Originally posted by Cory:
One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
... Seemed like a question, albeit that it wasn't traditionally stated.
Here, let me clarify: How does a perpetual, or even long term (5 years / 25% of a normal career span) help or encourage people to work harder and move up socially? It seems to be that it only encourages people to find a way to live within their government provided, modest means. |
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11/08/2012 12:47:28 PM · #349 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Cory:
Besides all of this, the question which I asked wasn't answered by your post. Please don't ignore my questions when responding to my posts, it honestly bothers me, as I find it very disrespectful. |
You didn't ask me a question, which is why I didn't answer one. |
Originally posted by Cory:
One question though, I'm unclear on how perpetual welfare helps or encourages people to work harder and move up socially. Seems to me that a lack of permanent benefits would be more encouraging. |
... Seemed like a question, albeit that it wasn't traditionally stated.
Here, let me clarify: How does a perpetual, or even long term (5 years / 25% of a normal career span) help or encourage people to work harder and move up socially? It seems to be that it only encourages people to find a way to live within their government provided, modest means. |
Seriously dude, I don't know of anyone that could possibly live on that much money for long. The people that I knew that got welfare years ago, mostly young girls who got knocked up in high school and thought they were going to get married and live happily ever after only to see the guy bolt and never be heard from again, figured out pretty quickly they couldn't live on it. What they did was go back to school. Yes, on welfare's dime, but that got them off. One of my aunts got pregnant at 15. She ran away to Maryland and married the guy. It lasted a year. She came crawling home, applied for welfare and went back to school for a beauticians licences. She's owned her own salon for years now and is doing very well for herself. But without that system in place, who knows where she'd be now. There are success stories. |
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11/08/2012 12:54:39 PM · #350 |
Kelli, i dont think anyone is saying we get rid of all safety nets, they obviously have their place, but lets not act as if people who get a government handout are willing to just get off of it.
example, i know it isn't welfare, its insurance, but same scenario, but i know a few people on unemployment, NJ has extended the claims to 2 yrs form what was it maybe 6 months! i know people who just sat back and collected, no looking for a job, nothing, and then when it got to the end they magically found jobs right away.
unemployment used to be a burden, you used to have to look for work and report where to put applications, call in your claim every two weeks, now its cake, you never have to look for work meaning they dont check up on you you hop online and hit a few check boxes and boom a check shows up.
Message edited by author 2012-11-08 12:55:14. |
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