| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/04/2012 04:59:50 PM · #426 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by myqyl:
I would (and will) withhold my support for any group, minority or majority, that seeks to impose it's will on others. |
We'll see what the IRS has to say about that ... :-( |
Religion I'll talk about... Politics I'll talk about... but the IRS? No comment ;-)
|
|
|
|
12/04/2012 05:17:07 PM · #427 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Like everything else it's reasonable to hold that this right has its limitations. |
When you elucidate the right plainly, I find it hard to agree. Do gays have the right to marry? It would seem to me that either they do or they don't. It isn't a question of, "They have a right to marry unless they get uppity," or, "They have a right to marry so long as they are treated differently from other married couples in law or in fact." The right itself is black and white in my opinion. Likewise, you either support it or any other right, or you don't.
To use a hyperbolic example that seems pretty plain: Jehovah's Witnesses are intolerable proselytizers with a set of tiresome beliefs that make them appear childish at best, or destructive to modern society at worst. That's an opinion.
In Germany in World War II, Witnesses famously resisted the Nazi regime due in part to their faith's proscription on idolization of any kind, including the worship of the state. They were as inhumanely persecuted as the Jews. They had as much right to freedom, dignity, religion, and protection from suffering as any human being does today, but under the Nazis, that right was removed.
My opinion of the worthlessness of their beliefs, and the blatant agenda they have of converting the population of the planet to their particular flavour of god belief, has no bearing on how strongly I feel that their rights must be wholly protected so that they never again suffer the injustice they experienced. Either I support that right, or I don't; there can be no two ways about it. I can't withdraw my support for an inalienable right when I feel like the Witnesses are getting just a little too pushy, or when I feel like I've had enough of the routine weekend door knocking, or even when the majority of people have converted to their zany religion.
After all, not all Witnesses knock on doors. (Actually, they're all supposed to.) Not all gays sue bigoted proprietors. Not every gay married couple wants every froth-mouthed bigot at their wedding reception so they can rub their face in it.
Most just want to get on with their lives. Either you support that, or you don't. |
|
|
|
12/04/2012 05:42:29 PM · #428 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I never said it wasn't protected by the First Amendment. That wasn't the discussion. YOU stated that you wouldn't support any group that seeks to impose its will on others. (See emboldened above.) You don't feel the Catholic Church does that?????
|
Certainly the Catholic Church imposes it's will on others. But on Catholics. I'm ok with that. When they try to overstep like some Bishops have done in the case of Gay Marriage I have NOT supported them. I was also very vocal about it too.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Somehow I have trouble believing that the Catholic Church doesn't view porn sites as evil.
|
It's true none the less... I have insider information...
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So now you're stating that the homosexual act is evil? So.....it's okay to be homosexual, just don't realize your love for your partner in a physical way. Yeah......that works. NOT!
So who is having trouble with understanding how things truly are relative to the church?
|
Actually no, I'm not saying anything of the sort. The Catholic Church is. Big differance there. I disagree with the Church. But I really do understand the teachings of the Church. I'm beginning to assume you're not Catholic or at least not a well caticized one, so it's understandable that you find this stuff confusing. Like the loving Spoonful said "It's like trying to tell a stranger about Rock & Roll"... Very hard to understand from the outside. You have snipits and phrases... You can't see the whole picture that way.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And......we've discovered over time you *can* pick up a stick on a Tuesday, and God will not smite you, and womens' ankles have actually become a common sight in many parts of the world. As far as the secular humanists go, I can't speak for them, but I'd imagine that they view subscribing to some religions as foolish.......they leave the judging of who are sinners to the religions, who in turn, brand them as heathens because they *DON'T* subscribe to their particular way of doing things.
|
Actually Tuesday has always been ok... It's Friday sundown to Saturday sundown... And just cause God doesn't smite you doesn't make it ok :) But I get your point. However the part about "they leave judging who are sinners to the religions", sorry, but i gotta call Bullshit on that one... I've been on the receiving end often enough to know that's not how it goes...
Also just because you don't like someones rules doesn't give you the right to say they can't follow them. If someone decides not to pick up sticks, i'll respect their right to do so...
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oh, trust me! NEVER in a million years would I ever join the Catholic Church. Personally, I feel it's the world's largest terrorist organization.....after all, they rule through fear and intimidation. I'm not whining about your rules, I merely feel that for the most part, they're patently absurd, and in some cases, harmful and destructive. |
You actually don't know the rules so I can understand how you find them absurd. I find many things I have no understanding of absurd. But I don't feel inclined to tell other people that they can't be absurd if they want to. Why should it bother you so that i choose to follow rules you consider absurd? I'm sure you follow rules that I don't understand and I have no desire to denegrate you or tell you that your a bad person. As far as I can tell, you're probably a fairly nice person (to non-Catholics)...
|
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:07:58 PM · #429 |
Originally posted by Louis:
When you elucidate the right plainly, I find it hard to agree. Do gays have the right to marry? It would seem to me that either they do or they don't. It isn't a question of, "They have a right to marry unless they get uppity," or, "They have a right to marry so long as they are treated differently from other married couples in law or in fact." The right itself is black and white in my opinion. Likewise, you either support it or any other right, or you don't.
|
I respect your right to your opinion.
However I reserve my right to lend my support to causes that I believe in. I believe that the Gay Rights movement is just. However, many such movements throughout history have been highjacked by extremist elements and have resulted in some of the worse cases of human rights abuses. When I see the wheels coming off on a movement, I reaccess my position and adjust accordingly.
The analogy you gave was interesting. Let's suppose you were a young German in the 1930's that saw your country oppressed by neighboring countries for things that happened before you were born. You support the movement to restore rights to your countrymen... Once you're asked to go round up the Jehovah's Wittnesses, would you be wrong to reaccess your support for the Brown Shirts?
I can't believe this actually degraded to a discussion of Nazis so quickily... I'm use to threads where that takes a couple of days at least :)
|
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:08:42 PM · #430 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Like everything else it's reasonable to hold that this right has its limitations. |
When you elucidate the right plainly, I find it hard to agree. Do gays have the right to marry? It would seem to me that either they do or they don't. It isn't a question of, "They have a right to marry unless they get uppity," or, "They have a right to marry so long as they are treated differently from other married couples in law or in fact." The right itself is black and white in my opinion. Likewise, you either support it or any other right, or you don't. |
Maybe we're just talking about two different things. I was most directly speaking to the case with the photographers. Recall that the decision in New Mexico has nothing to do with marriage because same-sex marriage isn't even recognized in that state. The question is whether the right of freedom of conscience does or does not trump the right to equal protection based on sexual orientation when it comes to businesses. The court answered, "probably it doesn't, but we don't promise."
We do know that equal protection does have its limits. Agreed or not, a religious institution could fire someone just because of their sexual orientation. This has been upheld by the courts and would represent a limit to the right. OTOH we have seen limits to religious freedoms as well. Nothing holds trump in all circumstances. |
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:10:38 PM · #431 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
I can't believe this actually degraded to a discussion of Nazis so quickily... I'm use to threads where that takes a couple of days at least :) |
Four times out of five Westboro gets brought up, not the Nazis... |
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:18:34 PM · #432 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
If you don't subscribe to the teachings of the Catholic Church than Don't Be A Catholic! Why all the fuss? You quoted from the "CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH"... That's our rules. If we don't want to live by them we can leave the Church! |
No, unfortunately we can't:
"The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process." |
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:18:49 PM · #433 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by myqyl:
I can't believe this actually degraded to a discussion of Nazis so quickily... I'm use to threads where that takes a couple of days at least :) |
Four times out of five Westboro gets brought up, not the Nazis... |
HeHe... Those looney tunes make me doubt the wisdom of the First Amendment.
|
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:23:57 PM · #434 |
Are the nazis invading....lol. Again
|
|
|
|
12/04/2012 06:25:04 PM · #435 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by myqyl:
If you don't subscribe to the teachings of the Catholic Church than Don't Be A Catholic! Why all the fuss? You quoted from the "CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH"... That's our rules. If we don't want to live by them we can leave the Church! |
No, unfortunately we can't:
"The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process." |
hehehe... True, but we can leave it informally :) Kind of a Casual Friday defection...
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 06:39:43 AM · #436 |
Originally posted by JH:
"The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process." |
Typical Catholic arrogance......
Got news for ya......If *I* say I'm done with you, it's formal. YOU don't tell me you're in charge of my life and soul.
This is exactly why I hate organized religions. How dare these robed jerks tell me what I can or can't do. This isn't about God, or being good and kind to your fellow man. This is about power and control. It's human, and it sucks. I can't tell you how much misery I have seen wrought on peoples' lives because of the absurd and ridiculous strictures placed on people.
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 09:24:39 AM · #437 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by JH:
"The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process." |
Typical Catholic arrogance......
Got news for ya......If *I* say I'm done with you, it's formal. YOU don't tell me you're in charge of my life and soul.
This is exactly why I hate organized religions. How dare these robed jerks tell me what I can or can't do. This isn't about God, or being good and kind to your fellow man. This is about power and control. It's human, and it sucks. I can't tell you how much misery I have seen wrought on peoples' lives because of the absurd and ridiculous strictures placed on people. |
+1 |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 12:22:18 PM · #438 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by JH:
"The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process." |
Typical Catholic arrogance......
Got news for ya......If *I* say I'm done with you, it's formal. YOU don't tell me you're in charge of my life and soul.
This is exactly why I hate organized religions. How dare these robed jerks tell me what I can or can't do. This isn't about God, or being good and kind to your fellow man. This is about power and control. It's human, and it sucks. I can't tell you how much misery I have seen wrought on peoples' lives because of the absurd and ridiculous strictures placed on people. |
+1 |
LoL!!!
Seriously? This bothers you?!? It's about bookkeeping. There are people that "break ties" with the Catholic Church after every other Homily and then "reunite" the next week. It generates too much damned paperwork.
If THIS truly bothers you, you need to adjust your meds...
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 12:41:08 PM · #439 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
There are people that "break ties" with the Catholic Church after every other Homily and then "reunite" the next week. It generates too much damned paperwork. |
It's the 're-unite' piece that should be difficult surely, not the defection piece?
It should be difficult to get into the club as you have to prove your commitment through baptism. It's at that point they should confirm that you're in it for the long haul.
Of course, it's difficult to ask a 6-month-old baby to confirm his commitment to the Catholic Church through baptism, or ask a 7-year-old boy if he understands what Communion really means (apart from the party and the bouncy castle) or even ask an 11-year-old if they know what 'confirmation' means.
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out.
In this country it's about the numbers. The Catholic Church are desperate to show how many 'catholics' there are to enable them to maintain control over the education system and parts of the constitution. The census is even worded in such a way as it's almost impossible not to tick the 'Religion: Catholic' box for most people.
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 12:58:05 PM · #440 |
Originally posted by JH:
"The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process." |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Typical Catholic arrogance......
Got news for ya......If *I* say I'm done with you, it's formal. YOU don't tell me you're in charge of my life and soul.
This is exactly why I hate organized religions. How dare these robed jerks tell me what I can or can't do. This isn't about God, or being good and kind to your fellow man. This is about power and control. It's human, and it sucks. I can't tell you how much misery I have seen wrought on peoples' lives because of the absurd and ridiculous strictures placed on people. |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Seriously? This bothers you?!? It's about bookkeeping. There are people that "break ties" with the Catholic Church after every other Homily and then "reunite" the next week. It generates too much damned paperwork.
If THIS truly bothers you, you need to adjust your meds... |
First.....other than empathy for some of my friends who are Catholics, no, this stupid sh*t your church pulls doesn't bother me in the least. since I'm not a member, I don't have to defend any of this garbage.
The paperwork!
Here I thought it may have been about something important.
Can you at all see how you're helping to make my case?
And  JH makes multiple good points below. You cannot ignore the inconsistencies and strange practices.
Originally posted by JH:
It's the 're-unite' piece that should be difficult surely, not the defection piece?
It should be difficult to get into the club as you have to prove your commitment through baptism. It's at that point they should confirm that you're in it for the long haul.
Of course, it's difficult to ask a 6-month-old baby to confirm his commitment to the Catholic Church through baptism, or ask a 7-year-old boy if he understands what Communion really means (apart from the party and the bouncy castle) or even ask an 11-year-old if they know what 'confirmation' means.
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out.
In this country it's about the numbers. The Catholic Church are desperate to show how many 'catholics' there are to enable them to maintain control over the education system and parts of the constitution. The census is even worded in such a way as it's almost impossible not to tick the 'Religion: Catholic' box for most people. |
BTW.....just as a funny aside.....a friend of mine's ex-husband just got remarried, in a huge Catholic wedding, by a bishop. It was okay that he remarried 'cause his first marriage was annulled.
Just imagine his four kids' surprise at finding out they don't exist!
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 01:11:40 PM · #441 |
Originally posted by JH:
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out. |
I know you are taking a bit of license here, but do you really think this is true? Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 01:17:45 PM · #442 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by myqyl:
There are people that "break ties" with the Catholic Church after every other Homily and then "reunite" the next week. It generates too much damned paperwork. |
It's the 're-unite' piece that should be difficult surely, not the defection piece?
It should be difficult to get into the club as you have to prove your commitment through baptism. It's at that point they should confirm that you're in it for the long haul.
Of course, it's difficult to ask a 6-month-old baby to confirm his commitment to the Catholic Church through baptism, or ask a 7-year-old boy if he understands what Communion really means (apart from the party and the bouncy castle) or even ask an 11-year-old if they know what 'confirmation' means.
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out.
In this country it's about the numbers. The Catholic Church are desperate to show how many 'catholics' there are to enable them to maintain control over the education system and parts of the constitution. The census is even worded in such a way as it's almost impossible not to tick the 'Religion: Catholic' box for most people. |
I haven't been to Ireland yet but I very much want to visit. The US Church is different, apparently in several ways. 1st Communion is at about age 8 or 9. Both of my daughters understood what it was about before I let them Receive. Confirmation isn't until 16 here, by which time they should be able to make that call for themselves. I agree that 11 is way too early.
The lay people in the US have pushed back pretty hard against the Church becoming a political entity. Also the US Constitution was designed to prevent that kind of abuse.
In fact, I'm not sure how it works in Ireland, but in the US it's pretty hard to get into the Church if you weren't born in. When my wife converted she had to take a year of classes and carefully consider if she really wanted to join before she was accepted (a process called RCIA).
Religion and Politics have melded in Ireland to the detriment of both. Very sad. You are in my prayers.
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 01:49:28 PM · #443 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JH:
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out. |
I know you are taking a bit of license here, but do you really think this is true? Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
What about the first sentence, about requiring a lifelong commitment from those too intellectually immature to make a truly informed choice?
Of course, the Catholic church is not the only entity to use this technique ...  |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 02:00:07 PM · #444 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JH:
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out. |
I know you are taking a bit of license here, but do you really think this is true? Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
What about the first sentence, about requiring a lifelong commitment from those too intellectually immature to make a truly informed choice?
Of course, the Catholic church is not the only entity to use this technique ... |
A lifelong commitment doesn't mean anything unless it's a lifelong commitment, no? It seems like a really small bone to pick. I'm fairly sure that there are a number of people on this thread who would have a problem with, "The Catholic church does X." The interpretation of X would be with a maximally cynical view and no possibility of good intentions or good results would be considered.
It's pretty worthless to pursue such a conversation. |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 02:02:47 PM · #445 |
Wow did this get off topic.
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 03:54:49 PM · #446 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JH:
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out. |
I know you are taking a bit of license here, but do you really think this is true? Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
What about the first sentence, about requiring a lifelong commitment from those too intellectually immature to make a truly informed choice?
Of course, the Catholic church is not the only entity to use this technique ... |
I had a long running fight with a highschool teacher because I refused to say "with liberty and justice for all". It simply wasn't true and i wouldn't say it. To his credit he argued his point rather than so "because I said so", until we finally came to a comprimise... To this day I end the pledge "FOR liberty and justice for all".
But we shouldn't think that kids can't understand what's going on. Now that I'm no longer one but have a couple of them, it turns out they know full well when they are being sold a bill of goods.
And indoctrination works in many directions. I remember helping out in one of my daughter's preschools several years ago and listening to the teacher basically telling a group of 4 and 5 year olds to question all authority and i wanted to hang a sign in front of her classroom...
"The Revolution Begins Here"
|
|
|
|
12/05/2012 04:14:43 PM · #447 |
| No, that's wrong. I have been taught for years here on Rant that indoctrination is only something that religions do. Everybody else teaches. How can that be wrong?!? |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 04:15:01 PM · #448 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JH:
That's the issue - It's too easy to get in, they catch people when they're too young and incapable of making an informed decision themselves whether they want to be in the club for life. But when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they make it impossible to get out. |
I know you are taking a bit of license here, but do you really think this is true? Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
What about the first sentence, about requiring a lifelong commitment from those too intellectually immature to make a truly informed choice?
Of course, the Catholic church is not the only entity to use this technique ... |
I had a long running fight with a highschool teacher because I refused to say "with liberty and justice for all". It simply wasn't true and i wouldn't say it. To his credit he argued his point rather than so "because I said so", until we finally came to a comprimise... To this day I end the pledge "FOR liberty and justice for all".
But we shouldn't think that kids can't understand what's going on. Now that I'm no longer one but have a couple of them, it turns out they know full well when they are being sold a bill of goods.
And indoctrination works in many directions. I remember helping out in one of my daughter's preschools several years ago and listening to the teacher basically telling a group of 4 and 5 year olds to question all authority and i wanted to hang a sign in front of her classroom...
"The Revolution Begins Here" |
I had the same fight... Except it was about the whole "god" thing... I was pretty sure there wasn't any such thing, and I knew it was wrong to swear myself to something that I didn't believe in.
We never really found any resolution to the issue, other than for me to simply shut up and pretend to participate. |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 04:21:23 PM · #449 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No, that's wrong. I have been taught for years here on Rant that indoctrination is only something that religions do. Everybody else teaches. |
Did you look at my picture? It's not taken in a church ... |
|
|
|
12/05/2012 04:21:56 PM · #450 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I had the same fight... Except it was about the whole "god" thing... I was pretty sure there wasn't any such thing, and I knew it was wrong to swear myself to something that I didn't believe in.
We never really found any resolution to the issue, other than for me to simply shut up and pretend to participate. |
I was an athiest in my junior year of highschool, and I just left out the "Under God" part... I was kind of ok with the rest of it.
|
|
