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10/03/2012 10:48:15 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by pederlol:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by pederlol:
I am sorry to be a jerk, but how on earth can this get a 6+ score? Can someone tell me, why they score it that high? It's just... I don't understand.
I could pick many other pictures, this only serves as an example. |
I think it's a really nice image on multiple levels. |
Wow, looking at your portfolio, I can understand why :)
I guess it boils down to preference. I am still interesting in what makes those photographs appealing, though. Not so much the voting theorycrafting going on in this thread as well :) |
Wow! For not trying you sure as Hell are succeeding, I'll leave it at that.
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10/03/2012 10:55:44 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Venser:
Schools and this site's challenges are measuring two different things. They're not even comparable. |
No, they're measuring the exact same thing......the offering on its own merits. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
That's silly, Jeb. In a math test, to name one example, an answer is either right or wrong. When it comes to judging photographs, the criteria are inscrutable, highly personal, and not subject to any sort of objective analysis. |
Yes, but excluding math, and multiple guess questions, essays, and other forms of offerings in the way of perceptions of ideas such as in philosophy......you really can not compare the answers against each other so much as grade them on the student's understanding and presentation of the concept. Sound like voting a themed challenge?
As far as your math analogy......yes, right answers count......BUT.....grading on a curve is still skewing the results based on the performance of the group as a whole, not upon individual performance.
Message edited by author 2012-10-03 10:57:09.
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10/03/2012 11:02:54 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
No, they're measuring the exact same thing......the offering on its own merits. |
Originally posted by Venser:
Schools measure your level of understanding in particular subjects. You either know Kreb's cycle, how to differentiate a given function, or who Snowball and Napolean are, or you don't? It's black and white. This site does no such thing. |
At an elementary and middle school level, and in finite subjects, yes, but let's suppose most of us here at DPC are a little past that level. Once you proceed further in education, HOW you present your answer, and whether you do a good job of conveying your point is easily as important as your supposed black & white answer premise.
I'd truly hate to have my images voted based on a right or wrong basis......so yeah, please don't ask any math teachers to vote my images, but college professors who are teaching young minds to think on their own? Bring 'em on!
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10/03/2012 11:08:15 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
... but college professors who are teaching young minds to think on their own? Bring 'em on! |
Funny story, I was a professor before I went to work in finance.
edit - If you think universities ask people to think on their own, you're disillusioned with how the system works. The bigger universities operate like a factory. You pump students in one door and out the other end four years later. The larger the university, the worse it is. Mine had 35000 students and it was simply a revenue generating machine. Professors were asked to have four graduate students each in our department, regardless of the talent pool. Not only that, they made arbitrary restrictions which hurt the selection process. I wanted a student applying from the Sorbonne, but because they didn't meet our arbitrary standard of 84%, they couldn't be admitted. I was willing to vouch for them and everything, since standards across universities, let alone countries, are vastly different. So I got jaded with the system and went to work in finance.
Message edited by author 2012-10-03 11:14:49. |
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10/03/2012 11:24:58 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
... but college professors who are teaching young minds to think on their own? Bring 'em on! |
Funny story, I was a professor before I went to work in finance.
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A professor of awesome at FU?
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10/03/2012 11:41:30 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Venser:
Schools and this site's challenges are measuring two different things. They're not even comparable. |
No, they're measuring the exact same thing......the offering on its own merits. |
That's silly, Jeb. In a math test, to name one example, an answer is either right or wrong. When it comes to judging photographs, the criteria are inscrutable, highly personal, and not subject to any sort of objective analysis. |
But in a history test or English essay, two answers could be completely different, yet equally correct (based on a subjective question of course)... each would be graded on their own merits and not against the other students.
"What I did for Summer Vacation" for example... is a good comparison. Each student will write based on what they did and how they perceived the question. Papers written equally well in terms of grammar and length and other rules should be graded the same, not ranked against each other.
If a kid writes about his Winter vacation or just about his favorite car... then that would be a DNMC. |
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10/03/2012 11:43:01 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Originally posted by mike_311:
I dont get why its "woefully wrong".
each challenge is an individual challenge and and ribbons are awarded based on the scores compared to the the others in any given challenge.
i think its wrong to be comparing scores across challenges and over time. |
Ribbons are awarded based on the scores. CORRECT.
Scores are given based on the quality of the photos. |
so if we award ribbons according the to other entries why can we vote based on their strength to the other entries.
if my daughter enters a coloring contest they will grade her relative to the other entrants, not how good last years artists were. |
If your daughter enters a coloring contest then EVERYONE IS A WINNER :) |
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10/03/2012 12:06:24 PM · #58 |
This thread is so amusing.
Watching the debate... 
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10/03/2012 12:11:21 PM · #59 |
To jump back to the OP, the question is one of math. If your average score is a 5.5, then a 6 is not a big score. It goes this way, meets challenge, check. In focus, not horribly processed, check. Some combination of clots and shapes that are pleasing, check. A truly impressive image, not here. So it clicks most of the boxes and gets a 6+.
Now if your average score given is more like a 4,and 6s are reserved for the few best images, then I would understand your confusion. |
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10/03/2012 12:23:59 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
In fact a few people in this forum with well below a 5 voting average and tons of votes cast which means 1,2,3,4 abuse! Staying at or above a 5 average would be a healthy voter IMO. |
We should give everyone a ribbon too, we shouldn't be out to hurt anyones feelings, everyone takes great photos and we should vote accordingly. |
Agreed sir.
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Staying at or above a 5 average would be a healthy voter IMO. |
How do you figure? A 5.5 is a reflection of the quality of the ENTRIES, not the voter. |
Yes your right. But someone who votes with an average of 6 or above votes quite generously and those who vote at a 4 average or even a 3 average are voting quite poorley on most images and give a few good grades to those who usually ribbon. Just because an image isnt a 10 doesnt mean it deserves a 1,2,3, or 4. I havent voted in one challenge in which ive come in below the bell curve. So I see a few bad a few good and a lot of mediocre...aka bell curve everytime. Therefore, I believe that if voters were to simply hit the 5 for any "meh" image without a second thought, give lower for the terribles and higher for anything they look at longer than a second then they should come in at a 5 average every time. Thats "healthy" to me. If they show a lower average voting record at 3k plus votes then they vote pretty darn low all the time. Remeber....this is all in my own opinion. Just sharing to share!
P.s. I deal with statistics on a daily basis. Its something I just see. Sorry for the over analyzation. :) |
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10/03/2012 12:27:56 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Yes your right. But someone who votes with an average of 6 or above votes quite generously and those who vote at a 4 average or even a 3 average are voting quite poorley on most images and give a few good grades to those who usually ribbon. |
Check my comments. Rarely do the entries I give my top votes to finish in the ribbons.
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Just because an image isnt a 10 doesnt mean it deserves a 1,2,3, or 4. ..... Remeber....this is all in my own opinion. |
Sums it up nicely doesn't it? |
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10/03/2012 02:23:24 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Yes your right. But someone who votes with an average of 6 or above votes quite generously and those who vote at a 4 average or even a 3 average are voting quite poorley on most images and give a few good grades to those who usually ribbon. Just because an image isnt a 10 doesnt mean it deserves a 1,2,3, or 4. I havent voted in one challenge in which ive come in below the bell curve. So I see a few bad a few good and a lot of mediocre...aka bell curve everytime. Therefore, I believe that if voters were to simply hit the 5 for any "meh" image without a second thought, give lower for the terribles and higher for anything they look at longer than a second then they should come in at a 5 average every time. Thats "healthy" to me. If they show a lower average voting record at 3k plus votes then they vote pretty darn low all the time. Remeber....this is all in my own opinion. Just sharing to share!
P.s. I deal with statistics on a daily basis. Its something I just see. Sorry for the over analyzation. :) |
Stats is fun... unfortunately we're trying to compare apples and oranges and rocks and UFOs. People vote differently :)
If a shot is clean and meets the challenge, looks like it was nurtured well, then I start at 6 and work my way up.
If a shot looks like it came right out of the camera (not in Minimal of course), is poorly lit, grainy (not artistically), etc... it starts at a 5 and I work it down.
If a shot fails to meet the challenge, I rate the quality of the photo and then assess a -3 penalty. I used to do straight 1s for DNMC and that's fair too.
A 6 is not a "participation trophy" you get just for entering something. You have to try.
That said, I am as follows:
Votes Cast: 16,086
Avg Vote Cast: 5.3492
I feel that's pretty healthy for the quality of work here. |
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10/03/2012 02:52:48 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Yes your right. But someone who votes with an average of 6 or above votes quite generously and those who vote at a 4 average or even a 3 average are voting quite poorley on most images and give a few good grades to those who usually ribbon. |
Check my comments. Rarely do the entries I give my top votes to finish in the ribbons.
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Just because an image isnt a 10 doesnt mean it deserves a 1,2,3, or 4. ..... Remeber....this is all in my own opinion. |
Sums it up nicely doesn't it? |
You give wonderful comments and they are all appreciated, really they are Ive gotten plenty from you. I dont mean to attack all the people with low voting averages. However, I can only be left to assume that the ones that create the previously mention scenario "Just because it's not a 10..." have a low voting average. There are a few that do it and Im willing to bet they have low averages. Again not say you or anyone in particular does it! And im sure you dont ...or maybe you DO and try and hide it with your nice comments ;) KIDDING! Its all fun and games and this is just a friendly debate I hope. Someone made a comment waaaaaaaaay earlier and I just like debating.
Personally I care mostly about the comments not the scores. The comments are what help you get better, the scores just make you try harder and try more often. Both of which are good for a learning photographer. Many on here have been doing for years and Im happy to to learn from them and join in on the fun that is these lovely forums :) |
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10/03/2012 02:54:54 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
People vote differently :) |
Hey, there's something you (and others) could repeat to yourself over and over and over. ;-) |
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10/03/2012 02:57:58 PM · #65 |
| Come on now, Art is not subjective. There are strict guidelines that all must follow when rating other photos. How dare any of you vote am 9-10 on something I hate and is clearly not correct. We are all the same, all the photos are the same and we must all vote the same. |
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10/03/2012 02:58:59 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Originally posted by jusjoshing:
Yes your right. But someone who votes with an average of 6 or above votes quite generously and those who vote at a 4 average or even a 3 average are voting quite poorley on most images and give a few good grades to those who usually ribbon. Just because an image isnt a 10 doesnt mean it deserves a 1,2,3, or 4. I havent voted in one challenge in which ive come in below the bell curve. So I see a few bad a few good and a lot of mediocre...aka bell curve everytime. Therefore, I believe that if voters were to simply hit the 5 for any "meh" image without a second thought, give lower for the terribles and higher for anything they look at longer than a second then they should come in at a 5 average every time. Thats "healthy" to me. If they show a lower average voting record at 3k plus votes then they vote pretty darn low all the time. Remeber....this is all in my own opinion. Just sharing to share!
P.s. I deal with statistics on a daily basis. Its something I just see. Sorry for the over analyzation. :) |
Stats is fun... unfortunately we're trying to compare apples and oranges and rocks and UFOs. People vote differently :)
If a shot is clean and meets the challenge, looks like it was nurtured well, then I start at 6 and work my way up.
If a shot looks like it came right out of the camera (not in Minimal of course), is poorly lit, grainy (not artistically), etc... it starts at a 5 and I work it down.
If a shot fails to meet the challenge, I rate the quality of the photo and then assess a -3 penalty. I used to do straight 1s for DNMC and that's fair too.
A 6 is not a "participation trophy" you get just for entering something. You have to try.
That said, I am as follows:
Votes Cast: 16,086
Avg Vote Cast: 5.3492
I feel that's pretty healthy for the quality of work here. |
Yes of course I have a similar formula for voting. Im sure many do, even the ones with a lower average (nothing wrong with that of course). I shouldnt have made that comment about "A healthy voting score" that I apologize for. There is just something about those few wild cards out there though messing everyone up. Popping up on the green right before a putt and yelling "JACKASS"....yea those people..... |
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10/03/2012 03:13:25 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Come on now, Art is not subjective. There are strict guidelines that all must follow when rating other photos. How dare any of you vote am 9-10 on something I hate and is clearly not correct. We are all the same, all the photos are the same and we must all vote the same. |
Amen brother!
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
People vote differently :) |
Hey, there's something you (and others) could repeat to yourself over and over and over. ;-) |
I'm one of the culprits, but it's worth repeating every time someone says otherwise.
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10/03/2012 03:19:21 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Come on now, Art is not subjective. There are strict guidelines that all must follow when rating other photos. How dare any of you vote am 9-10 on something I hate and is clearly not correct. We are all the same, all the photos are the same and we must all vote the same. |
Minso, I think you need to go to my thread. You are definitely "think tank" material. |
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10/03/2012 07:29:36 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Come on now, Art is not subjective. There are strict guidelines that all must follow when rating other photos. How dare any of you vote am 9-10 on something I hate and is clearly not correct. We are all the same, all the photos are the same and we must all vote the same. |
You've misunderstood the discussion.
Of course Art (and art) is subjective. It's the scale used here that is the problem. If the site were more clear beyond 1 = BAD, 10 = GOOD so that people can put "meh" whereever on that line they choose it would be a great help.
Yes, I may rate yours EXCELLENT and someone else rates it FAIR -- that's the subjective part. But if all EXCELLENTS were 9s and all FAIRS were 5, we'd be a lot better off. |
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10/03/2012 07:39:44 PM · #70 |
| your problems with the complexity of 10 numbers assigning varying degrees of grades and that people view these numbers to mean different things? You d like a POS-BAD-OK-GOOD-EXCELLENT rating option that's clearly defined? |
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10/03/2012 07:44:08 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Devinder:
your problems with the complexity of 10 numbers assigning varying degrees of grades and that people view these numbers to mean different things? You d like a POS-BAD-OK-GOOD-EXCELLENT rating option that's clearly defined? |
Exactly!
Then we'd have one level of subjectivity instead of two.
Much more balanced. |
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10/03/2012 07:44:09 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
But if all EXCELLENTS were 9s and all FAIRS were 5, we'd be a lot better off. |
In your opinion. This is the part you seem to fail to comprehend, not every adheres to this, and they don't have to. |
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10/03/2012 07:47:29 PM · #73 |
Dang - this wasn't the thread I was hoping it was. I want to know HOW to GET high votes on boring photographs! I'm VERY good at boring photographs! I just don't know how to get the high votes on them.
Oh, sure, the DPC pros will tell me that if I just comment a bit more, I'll pick up on how to get high scoring photographs here (I'm working on that, the commenting part) but that really won't help me much. What I want to know is how to score well with BORING photographs. Snapshots. That sort of thing. |
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10/03/2012 07:52:09 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Come on now, Art is not subjective. There are strict guidelines that all must follow when rating other photos. How dare any of you vote am 9-10 on something I hate and is clearly not correct. We are all the same, all the photos are the same and we must all vote the same. |
You've misunderstood the discussion.
Of course Art (and art) is subjective. It's the scale used here that is the problem. If the site were more clear beyond 1 = BAD, 10 = GOOD so that people can put "meh" whereever on that line they choose it would be a great help.
Yes, I may rate yours EXCELLENT and someone else rates it FAIR -- that's the subjective part. But if all EXCELLENTS were 9s and all FAIRS were 5, we'd be a lot better off. |
Well put sir, weeeeeeellllll put. |
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10/03/2012 07:53:30 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Dang - this wasn't the thread I was hoping it was. I want to know HOW to GET high votes on boring photographs! I'm VERY good at boring photographs! I just don't know how to get the high votes on them.
Oh, sure, the DPC pros will tell me that if I just comment a bit more, I'll pick up on how to get high scoring photographs here (I'm working on that, the commenting part) but that really won't help me much. What I want to know is how to score well with BORING photographs. Snapshots. That sort of thing. |
Just wait and itll happen eventually if you dont change a thing :) |
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