Boo Apple! - DPChallenge Forums

08/28/2012 04:11:53 PM · #76

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I also realize because of the same IP protection laws some medicines I used are $500/month...

Do you think companies would be motivated to develop new drugs if they couldn't charge a premium for them?

MistyMucky

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

08/28/2012 04:14:15 PM · #77

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Mmmm hmmm. I also realize because of the same IP protection laws some medicines I used are $500/month, $15,000/year, and, the record for ones we use, $500,000/year. It's a tension that demands protection on both sides...

I guess this is a very difficult ethical question. Could you decide not to prescribe it because it is overpriced?
In the case of an iPhone it would be easy not to buy it. But of course some people want exactly the same functions with another brand, because of a fruit phobia ;-)

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/28/2012 04:18:39 PM · #78

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I also realize because of the same IP protection laws some medicines I used are $500/month...

Do you think companies would be motivated to develop new drugs if they couldn't charge a premium for them?

You missed I said there is a tension between both sides. You are looking at it from only one side. I can see it from both sides. Patent laws encourage innovation, but at the risk of monopolies (which I hope we all agree are bad).

Do you think the state of patent law when it comes to software is healthy? Honest question. I do not.

scarbrd

Leica M10

08/28/2012 04:32:59 PM · #79

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I also realize because of the same IP protection laws some medicines I used are $500/month...

Do you think companies would be motivated to develop new drugs if they couldn't charge a premium for them?

You missed I said there is a tension between both sides. You are looking at it from only one side. I can see it from both sides. Patent laws encourage innovation, but at the risk of monopolies (which I hope we all agree are bad).

Do you think the state of patent law when it comes to software is healthy? Honest question. I do not.

I'm not so sure, but the harder question is where do you draw the line? What is patentable in software and device-less input? Though question.

One way to resolve the issues is to let the courts and jury decide where the line is. Kinda like what happened last week.

08/28/2012 04:48:28 PM · #80

Originally posted by scarbrd:

True. The problem is you get a gemisch because Apple's nearly identical lawsuit against Motorola was thrown out. The lines become all gray and this only really benefits the lawyers.

Listen. I'm not an Apple "hater". I've got an iPad. I now have an iPhone. But I've also had an Android phone. My desktop is Windows. My MP3 player is a small company called iRiver. I have no alliegences so it's easy for me to be down on a company when I think they are acting without my interest in mind.

Message edited by author 2012-08-28 16:56:05.

08/28/2012 05:18:59 PM · #81

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

it's easy for me to be down on a company when I think they are acting without my interest in mind.

Since when does a for-profit company act with your interest as the priority? Companies will do what is in THEIR interest, and thrive or crumble by the consumer response. The response to iStuff has generally been Apple trying to keep up with demand.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Patent laws encourage innovation, but at the risk of monopolies (which I hope we all agree are bad).

Design patents expire after 14 years. I'm OK with companies being temporarily dominant on the strength of consumer demand for their product. If competitors have a problem with that, then their task is to make something even better (see Sony Walkman, Atari game consoles, Zip drives, etc.).

MistyMucky

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

08/28/2012 05:33:09 PM · #82

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

True. The problem is you get a gemisch because Apple's nearly identical lawsuit against Motorola was thrown out. The lines become all gray and this only really benefits the lawyers.

Yeah, I hate that too. But what's the alternative? Patent surveillance by a state agency? Not sure that's better...

The iStuff succeeded because of the great human/machine interface. I am not sure why that should be lesser IP than let's say for an interface between two hardware devices, which is totally undisputed. In other words, an invention should not be penalized just because it is beautifully simple.

Monopolies of course are a concern. If an innovation becomes of public interest, companies can get forced to sell licenses to competitors at an appropriate price. This is what happened to IBM with harddrives for instance.

scarbrd

Leica M10

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/28/2012 05:35:54 PM · #83

Originally posted by MistyMucky:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
True. The problem is you get a gemisch because Apple's nearly identical lawsuit against Motorola was thrown out. The lines become all gray and this only really benefits the lawyers.

Yeah, I hate that too. But what's the alternative? Patent surveillance by a state agency? Not sure that's better...

The iStuff succeeded because of the great human/machine interface. I am not sure why that should be lesser IP than let's say for an interface between two hardware devices, which is totally undisputed. In other words, an invention should not be penalized just because it is beautifully simple.

Monopolies of course are a concern. If an innovation becomes of public interest, companies can get forced to sell licenses to competitors at an appropriate price. This is what happened to IBM with harddrives for instance.

I am sure Apple would license the technology to Samsung just as they have done with others.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

08/28/2012 06:21:06 PM · #84

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by MistyMucky:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
True. The problem is you get a gemisch because Apple's nearly identical lawsuit against Motorola was thrown out. The lines become all gray and this only really benefits the lawyers.

Yeah, I hate that too. But what's the alternative? Patent surveillance by a state agency? Not sure that's better...

The iStuff succeeded because of the great human/machine interface. I am not sure why that should be lesser IP than let's say for an interface between two hardware devices, which is totally undisputed. In other words, an invention should not be penalized just because it is beautifully simple.

Monopolies of course are a concern. If an innovation becomes of public interest, companies can get forced to sell licenses to competitors at an appropriate price. This is what happened to IBM with harddrives for instance.

I am sure Apple would license the technology to Samsung just as they have done with others.

Which is pretty much what they're doing along with asking for bans on 8 specific products.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/28/2012 07:10:17 PM · #85

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by scarbrd:
DrAchoo, you've always had a bee in your bonnet about Apple.

And Yanko, this is for you.

This graphic pretty much tells the story.

If you can't connect the intellectual property dots on this one, then you're not trying very hard.

Oh yeah I forgot your calendar only goes as far back as Apple's birth. We need new era designations. Start of Apple is AD2 or AA and before Apple is B.S. Appropriate since whatever happened back then is just myth now.

Not if they had a patent on it.

You guys make fun of so called fanboys, but it's equally comical to watch you guys fall over yourselves to make sure Apple doesn't get any credit for what they've done.

Looks like serious sour grapes to me. I just don't understand why.

Hey, I just get a kick out of people running around like if the place is on fire. Shannon is making sure every spark is put out. I hope Apple appreciates the pro bono work.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/28/2012 07:21:50 PM · #86

Originally posted by scalvert:

Well clearly not the ones motivated only by money.

Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7 ASPH

08/28/2012 07:35:49 PM · #87

Originally posted by yanko:

Hey, I just get a kick out of people running around like if the place is on fire. Shannon is making sure every spark is put out. I hope Apple appreciates the pro bono work.

How come I keep thinking of Christmas Vacation?

Cousin Eddie: "He's cute ain't he? Only problem is, he's got a little bit a Mississippi Leg Hound in him. If the mood catches him right, he'll grab your leg and just go to town. Word of warning though, if he does lay into ya, it's best to just let him finish."

Message edited by author 2012-08-28 19:36:09.

heavyj

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4

08/29/2012 06:24:42 AM · #88

Here's some good information on the case

Groklaw

MistyMucky

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

08/29/2012 06:51:06 AM · #89

Originally posted by yanko:

This is quite cynical. Even if a company would not be motivated by money, they would still have to pay back their R&D and validation costs. A competitor who does just copy never had these costs, therefore he should buy a license at an appropriate price. That's the basics for a fair market allowing innovation.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/29/2012 07:36:48 PM · #90

Originally posted by MistyMucky:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I also realize because of the same IP protection laws some medicines I used are $500/month...

Do you think companies would be motivated to develop new drugs if they couldn't charge a premium for them?

Well clearly not the ones motivated only by money.

This is quite cynical. Even if a company would not be motivated by money, they would still have to pay back their R&D and validation costs. A competitor who does just copy never had these costs, therefore he should buy a license at an appropriate price. That's the basics for a fair market allowing innovation.

How am I being cynical? Shannon is the one implying that people only do things for money. I'm implying the opposite. Non-profits do exist. People do create things and then give it away. This web site wouldn't even exist if that wasn't the case. It uses PHP scripting (free), JavaScript (free), Apache (free), CSS, HTML, mySQL, all free and you're viewing it in a free browser. How do you explain that?

Message edited by author 2012-08-29 19:37:50.

08/29/2012 09:36:46 PM · #91

Originally posted by yanko:

Shannon is the one implying that people only do things for money...

Um, no. Shannon stated specifically that for-profit companies do things for money. The examples you note were either not created by for-profit companies or given away to establish strategic market dominance or a licensed standard. Pharmaceutical companies often give away free samples for awareness and marketing, too, but they're not going to spend millions to develop a drug and then let everyone else copy it. That would be business suicide.

bohemka

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

08/29/2012 10:06:45 PM · #92

Originally posted by scalvert:

Pharmaceutical companies often give away free samples for awareness and marketing, too, but they're not going to spend millions to develop a drug and then let everyone else copy it.

No, they let others (often universities and publicly funded ventures) develop it for them, and then swoop in and package and market it and turn enormous profits. Apt analogy.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/29/2012 10:23:20 PM · #93

Originally posted by scalvert:

Pharmaceutical companies often give away free samples for awareness and marketing, too ...

You left out sponsoring "educational seminars" and other forms of bribing doctors. FWIW the pharmacetical industry as a whole has been the number one or two most-profitable business sector (along with big oil) for about fifty years ... that would be net profit after paying for all that R&D and marketing and multi-million dollar executive salaries ...

When I was ordering for a clinic dispensary I had occasion to order the common antihistamine chlorpheniramine maleate -- available OTC for about $2.79 for a package of twelve as Chlor-TrimetonÂ® -- while I was ordering a bottle of 1000 tablets of the generic equivalent for under $10 ...

I think most of the feeling of discomfiture is driven by a difference of opinion about just where on the continuum running from charity to "reasonable profit" to "exploitation" certain business/legal practices fall.

08/29/2012 10:43:37 PM · #94

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I think most of the feeling of discomfiture is driven by a difference of opinion about just where on the continuum running from charity to "reasonable profit" to "exploitation" certain business/legal practices fall.

Yep, and this isn't that conversation. Regardless of whether we think they charge too much, pharmaceutical companies, big oil and tech companies alike have the right to assert patent protection over their products. Without such protection there is considerably less motivation to develop innovations in the first place.

bhuge

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/29/2012 11:31:16 PM · #95

Relevant TED talk.

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

08/29/2012 11:44:06 PM · #96

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Pharmaceutical companies often give away free samples for awareness and marketing, too ...

You left out sponsoring "educational seminars" and other forms of bribing doctors.

Depending on when you were last in the industry, this has more or less vanished. They don't even give us pens now.

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

08/30/2012 12:25:40 AM · #97

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Pharmaceutical companies often give away free samples for awareness and marketing, too ...

You left out sponsoring "educational seminars" and other forms of bribing doctors.

Depending on when you were last in the industry, this has more or less vanished. They don't even give us pens now.

I was pretty surprised when I had to go through the certification on this stuff... Amazing all of the limitations, frankly I can't even remember all of them at this point... Don't tell the project lead that though, ok? ;)

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II