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08/24/2012 05:16:38 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by hopper:
There's no way to reverse what's happening in sports. |
sure there is.
if a player is found to be cheating, strip any records broken awards won, remove any stats acquired, suspend player and void contract. |
or, in this case, strip the wins even if there is no evidence of cheating |
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08/24/2012 05:20:21 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by bhuge:
I find it very funny that no where in that entire long statement does he state that the allegations are false. The only thing he keeps repeating is that there is "zero physical evidence". It's almost like he is admitting to it but thinks it's OK because he got away without leaving physical evidence behind.
I'm not going to even speculate on if he cheated or not, but if he did, you know most of the other guys racing did the same thing. The problem is more with the system as a whole than with an individual rider. |
I didn't read it like that. I read it as if the whole statement is an explanation of WHY he is no longer fighting it. He has been saying the allegations were false for the past 8 or so years -- there was no point in saying it again here. |
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08/24/2012 05:25:27 PM · #53 |
| Let me ask you this... How much did he make? How sure are you that cheating isn't worth it? I'm not sure this example convinces me... I have my reasons to not cheat, but it's certainly not because cheaters don't win. |
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08/24/2012 06:22:21 PM · #54 |
How are you so sure that he cheated?
Is it because he's tired of fighting it and finally said, "enough" after over a decade of allegations? |
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08/24/2012 07:54:33 PM · #55 |
Can't say that I care.
Ray |
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08/24/2012 09:38:53 PM · #56 |
As long as people feel the need to reward athletes with huge sums of money and fame, there will be people cheating to get it.
You can erase a record book, you can take back a medal. You can't change the victory the people watching saw. Literally, somewhere tonight is some guy saying, I just won the 2003 Tour de France! It may say so in the record book, but it never really happened.
Whether he did, or did not cheat, I can see why he gave up. Had he won this round, all it would have meant is that he would eventually have to fight another. In any other venue, once you are found not guilty that's it. In his case, every time he had his case dismissed somebody else would file the same charges. The only answer acceptable to some is guilty. If the temptation to win a Tour de France is so great as to corrupt mere mortals, just think of what the temptation to be the one who took down the man who won more than any other must be like.
I don't know if he cheated or not. I do know that the only way to stop the hunt was to surrender.
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08/25/2012 09:10:31 AM · #57 |
It must be costing a fortune to keep fighting. And it's disgusting when it seems to be a "he said, he said" deal.
I'm sorry. He passed the tests. If the tests are flawed, it's the testers' fault. Not only that, he passes multiple, multiple, multiple times. What more can he do to prove his innocence?
It seems like such a witch hunt. I'd get tired of it too.
It's just wrong.
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08/25/2012 10:12:57 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
It must be costing a fortune to keep fighting. And it's disgusting when it seems to be a "he said, he said" deal.
I'm sorry. He passed the tests. If the tests are flawed, it's the testers' fault. Not only that, he passes multiple, multiple, multiple times. What more can he do to prove his innocence?
It seems like such a witch hunt. I'd get tired of it too.
It's just wrong. |
+1 |
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08/25/2012 04:17:39 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
It must be costing a fortune to keep fighting. And it's disgusting when it seems to be a "he said, he said" deal.
I'm sorry. He passed the tests. If the tests are flawed, it's the testers' fault. Not only that, he passes multiple, multiple, multiple times. What more can he do to prove his innocence?
It seems like such a witch hunt. I'd get tired of it too.
It's just wrong. |
It's not wrong, it's the only possibility for cycling to get out of this mess (see)
Let me tell you something about doping and the tests from the point of view of a chemist. The dopers have a huge advantage: they take a drug which took years to develop by the pharma industry to cure some illness. It will take years of research again to find a reliable test, because those drugs are very close to natural substances (sometimes they are natural substances, as in the case of blood transfusions). In this timespan cheaters can freely use these substances. So what's the only way to make them think twice about it? I would say it is a witch hunt several years later, so that they do not feel safe as long as the illegal substance cannot be detected. This has nothing to do with a test being flawed. |
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08/25/2012 06:48:25 PM · #60 |
oh please. the usa culture and our entire history is BASED ON LIES AND CHEATING. from stealing this huge chunk of a continent from indigenous populations to bombing civilians in nagasaki and hiroshima to wars started based on blatant lies (viet nam; iraq). we are the greed is good nation. we believe our myths like any other nation and ours is EXCEPTIONALISM. we are exceptional only in our ability to look the other way. so lance is simply the symptom, not the disease. he joins a long line of jocks and politicians that took the easy route with a willfully ignorant populace. it is a "winning" formula. |
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08/25/2012 06:53:05 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by oldbimmercoupe:
oh please. the usa culture and our entire history is BASED ON LIES AND CHEATING. from stealing this huge chunk of a continent from indigenous populations to bombing civilians in nagasaki and hiroshima to wars started based on blatant lies (viet nam; iraq). we are the greed is good nation. we believe our myths like any other nation and ours is EXCEPTIONALISM. we are exceptional only in our ability to look the other way. so lance is simply the symptom, not the disease. he joins a long line of jocks and politicians that took the easy route with a willfully ignorant populace. it is a "winning" formula. |
Wow! Nothing beats DPC for America bashing. |
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08/25/2012 07:59:02 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
Wow! Nothing beats DPC for America bashing. |
You are kidding right?
Ray |
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08/25/2012 08:12:36 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by chazoe:
Wow! Nothing beats DPC for America bashing. |
You are kidding right?
Ray |
No. Why?
Kris |
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08/25/2012 08:26:52 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by chazoe:
Wow! Nothing beats DPC for America bashing. |
You are kidding right?
Ray |
No. Why?
Kris |
If you really believe that DPC is a bastion for American bashing I would suggest you travel the world and really find out what a good portion of the world does think of the USA.
This place pales by comparison.
Ray |
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08/26/2012 05:19:22 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
If you really believe that DPC is a bastion for American bashing I would suggest you travel the world and really find out what a good portion of the world does think of the USA.
This place pales by comparison.
Ray |
I've been a few places and find that most people are quite kind in their opinions of America, at least to the face of Americans. They may speak differently to Canadians, but I blush to think of some of the things I heard them say about Canada ;)
In all honesty, nothing brings about attacks more than the anonymity of the interwebs. Compared to them, Palestinian nationalists and Viet Cong elders seem to think well of the USA. |
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08/26/2012 07:09:11 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
If you really believe that DPC is a bastion for American bashing I would suggest you travel the world and really find out what a good portion of the world does think of the USA.
This place pales by comparison.
Ray |
I've been a few places and find that most people are quite kind in their opinions of America, at least to the face of Americans. They may speak differently to Canadians, but I blush to think of some of the things I heard them say about Canada ;)
In all honesty, nothing brings about attacks more than the anonymity of the interwebs. Compared to them, Palestinian nationalists and Viet Cong elders seem to think well of the USA.
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I have no doubt about the basis of your argument, but would bring to your attention that mine was a counter to the statement that DPC was a hotbed of anti-USA sentiments... I don't believe it is. Yes there is the occasion where someone will gripe about Americans and/or US intervention in world affairs, but that is the exception rather than the rules.
I would agree that a good portion speak fondly of Americans but I also recall Americans donning apparel and backpacks with Canadian flags and shall assume that they did so to avoid flack.
It could well be that they will not complain "to your face" as they realize a lot of you carry guns.(Kidding of course) :O)
Ray |
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08/26/2012 07:18:14 AM · #67 |
| Cant say that Lance is an angel, but on one hand, you live by the sword and you die by the sword. I can see a heartfelt weary person who just wants a life back. Money didn't buy him happiness, time for some healing, and I'm not going to throw stones. |
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08/26/2012 11:22:04 AM · #68 |
A couple of points without trying to judge without the full facts and I have read a lot of the available info and followed road cycling for many years, I don't believe we come close to having all the facts
1) The major tour races are near to the most extreme physical challenge a person can subject themselves to, and I don't just mean endure but they are races and winning means conquering the challenge and the opponents.
2) Lance Armstrong and his team (it is a team sport in which an individual wins)won the Tour de France 7 times
3) They passed the tests during the years concerned, as Lance said available for testing 365/24
4) If Lance was cheating through doping then do we really believe anyone who was good enough to come second was not?
5) So Lance and his team still beat everyone 7 times probably on a more equal playing field than current publicity would have you believe.
I'm an optimist and try to see good in all of us until proven otherwise and would prefer to think Lance achieved everything clean, but either way maybe a more relevant fact is that during this years coverage in the UK they touched quite heavily on doping as always and one of the experts pointed out that one particular climb which is regularly used (unfortunately not this year) L'Alpe d'Huez, which is particularly hard, can be used as reference for perormance and they pointed out that in recent years the average for the climb is markedly slower than it was during the late 80's and early 90's widely seen as the worst period for doping in cycling, read what you will into this.
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10/11/2012 04:00:59 PM · #69 |
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10/11/2012 04:03:51 PM · #70 |
| I believe it's the 2004 Tour De France where you have to go to 24th place before you find a rider who didn't test positive. I don't have the time at work to find the exact year, but the position is correct. |
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10/11/2012 10:01:42 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
yikes. |
...My sentiments exactly.
One could hope that these allegations are NOT true, but given the number of people making accusations, I really don't like his chances.
Ray |
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10/12/2012 01:30:16 PM · #72 |
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10/12/2012 02:14:47 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
yikes. |
...My sentiments exactly.
One could hope that these allegations are NOT true, but given the number of people making accusations, I really don't like his chances.
Ray |
somehow it seems wrong when the proof is just people talking and there has been drug testing all the way along. If the tests are negative, and people talk, I'd tend to believe the tests more. I'd rather have proof than rumors.
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10/12/2012 02:22:43 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
yikes. |
...My sentiments exactly.
One could hope that these allegations are NOT true, but given the number of people making accusations, I really don't like his chances.
Ray |
somehow it seems wrong when the proof is just people talking and there has been drug testing all the way along. If the tests are negative, and people talk, I'd tend to believe the tests more. I'd rather have proof than rumors. |
The problem is that the science of doping was and likely still is ahead of the testing. It is an analytical chemistry issue with many components - including continuously new doping agents, the sensitivity required to test each of them, and the masking tools used make doping even more difficult to test. In order to test for a compound, it is easiest to have a sample of it to figure out how to test for it. If you continually invent new substances, the analytical chemists don't know what they are testing for. They may see new peaks in a chromatogram and say "there is something here", but they don't exactly what it is. They then need to first figure out what the peaks are, decipher the structures, etc.
Message edited by author 2012-10-12 14:34:30. |
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10/12/2012 05:53:28 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by mike_311:
yikes. |
...My sentiments exactly.
One could hope that these allegations are NOT true, but given the number of people making accusations, I really don't like his chances.
Ray |
somehow it seems wrong when the proof is just people talking and there has been drug testing all the way along. If the tests are negative, and people talk, I'd tend to believe the tests more. I'd rather have proof than rumors. |
The problem is that the science of doping was and likely still is ahead of the testing. It is an analytical chemistry issue with many components - including continuously new doping agents, the sensitivity required to test each of them, and the masking tools used make doping even more difficult to test. In order to test for a compound, it is easiest to have a sample of it to figure out how to test for it. If you continually invent new substances, the analytical chemists don't know what they are testing for. They may see new peaks in a chromatogram and say "there is something here", but they don't exactly what it is. They then need to first figure out what the peaks are, decipher the structures, etc. |
I'd sure hate to see this logic stand up in a court of law, in a criminal case. Because I read this as, "Criminals are always finding new ways to commit crimes. So, even though you have passed all the forensic tests, available to us today, we are going to go ahead and send you to jail; because you might be getting away with something."
If the witnesses weren't all guilty, and getting reduced sentences for their "cooperation", I'd be more inclined to accept the reasoning.
I don't know that Armstrong is innocent. I'm not sure I even believe his is innocent. However, under the US legal system, that means acquittal. You have to prove guilt, not just raise suspicions.
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