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06/02/2012 09:46:06 PM · #1 |
a parent's perspective
Today, one of the mom's on my son's travel baseball team told me something that happened this week at the little league field.
Her son's team was playing one day, and a man happened by and just stood and watched for a few minutes. They didn't think that much about it because it *is* a public park and they just assumed that it was one of the other team member's grandfather/uncle/friend etc.
Two days later, they are playing again, and he shows up again, this time with a camera. He took pictures of the boys for about 30 minutes and one of the moms ask him, "Do you have someone playing?"
He said, basically, no, but I'm not doing anything bad with the pictures, I'm just trying to practice. She replied that she understood, but since she (and they) did not know him, she was *very* uncomfortable. He offered them free prints, if she would give him their address. She declined and he ended up deleting the pictures and leaving.
I asked her if he gave any kind of identification (card, name, etc.) and she said no, he never offered any of that, just that he told her he was staying with his grandparents up the river for a while. (Up the river makes sense to those of us around here. :P)
I found it interesting to hear this from an uneasy parent's point of view. Yes, they are in public. Yes, it was his "right" to be taking pictures. However, I think he could have done a couple of things to make her feel a bit more at ease -- starting by offering some identification.
Thoughts?
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06/02/2012 09:57:30 PM · #2 |
| Absolutely. I think parents everywhere are overreacting, but given the state of things these days, you can never be too careful. I always carry business cards with me, and always introduce myself in a situation, offer a card, and ask if it's ok to take pictures. Depending on the reaction, I'll further explain what they're being used for. I am not a reporter, so if they say no, then it's no. |
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06/02/2012 09:57:57 PM · #3 |
The mom was right to protect her son.
I was at a street fair one day with my then two year old daughter. A fairly old, large, grubby looking man came up to me with a point & shoot and asked if he could take pictures of my daughter. I said no and he asked why and I said he was a stranger and that I wanted to protect my daughters image. He walked away. I have no idea how many shots he took without my knowledge...
Parents have the right and the responsibility to protect their children, especially when they are minors. |
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06/02/2012 10:04:53 PM · #4 |
Yeap... Totally agree with you... I recently went out and took some photos of my friend's son's flag football team ages 7-9. Everyone there saw me with her and her son, so they were comfortable with me shooting, but I also made a point to introduce myself to some of the other parents. I even offered them some images and told them to contact my friend, and let me know what jersey number their son was. If I had any good shots of their kids, I would gladly email them over. Lastly, it also helps that I had my wife and child at the game too. So needless to say, as my wife made friends, I became known as the husband/photographer, so she collected many of the email addresses. Someone even remarked to her that they had lens envy over my 70-300 VR... LoL...
Anyway, I personally would not photograph a group of children if I didn't personally know at least one in the group. Simply because I know it may make some of the parents uneasy. There are plenty of places to practice photography on adults, the local park by me has adult soccer, basketball, baseball/softball, and tennis... and usually at least one of these things is going on every day/night... |
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06/02/2012 10:12:44 PM · #5 |
well don't take your kids to a department store or through a traffic light or who knows how many other places we're filmed these days. why assume the people who have access to those cameras are trustworthy?
btw what does it mean to offer identification if you're not a professional something? |
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06/02/2012 10:13:32 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
The mom was right to protect her son.
I was at a street fair one day with my then two year old daughter. A fairly old, large, grubby looking man came up to me with a point & shoot and asked if he could take pictures of my daughter. I said no and he asked why and I said he was a stranger and that I wanted to protect my daughters image. He walked away. I have no idea how many shots he took without my knowledge...
Parents have the right and the responsibility to protect their children, especially when they are minors. |
In Canada, the law is with the photographer. I shoot at the park all the time and people tell me all sorts of bullshit about child porn laws which they make up on the fly. The minute my bullshit barometer hits red, I'll stick around to simply push buttons. You can identify yourself and claim the photos are not for commercial use but once a parent thinks they're in the right, you'll never convince them otherwise.
I have a six month old daughter, so I'm talking from someone who's been in their position. If I saw someone, I might ask why, but they don't have to tell. Unlike most people, I know the laws pertaining to such situations and know there is nothing I can do.
CS |
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06/02/2012 10:15:53 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
btw what does it mean to offer identification ... |
Just ask Jim Rockford .. :-) (US TV humor ...) |
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06/02/2012 10:24:59 PM · #8 |
| What is everyone protecting their child's image from? That whole thing just boggles my mind. Is their soul going to be snatched when the image is taken? You're really afraid some perv is going to take pleasure from looking at "your" child's image? If they do, so what. Would you know about it? I take random shots of kids all the time in public places. And as Ms. skewsme points out so eloquently, so does every "security" camera in every store, on every other street corner, on the beaches & the boardwalks, pretty much everywhere. |
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06/02/2012 10:26:24 PM · #9 |
| @ CS - I think the point is not whether it's legal or not. But unless you're a journalist covering a story on some particular kid in the park, etiquette should rule. |
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06/02/2012 10:27:47 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by karmat:
a parent's perspective
Today, one of the mom's on my son's travel baseball team told me something that happened this week at the little league field.
Her son's team was playing one day, and a man happened by and just stood and watched for a few minutes. They didn't think that much about it because it *is* a public park and they just assumed that it was one of the other team member's grandfather/uncle/friend etc.
Two days later, they are playing again, and he shows up again, this time with a camera. He took pictures of the boys for about 30 minutes and one of the moms ask him, "Do you have someone playing?"
He said, basically, no, but I'm not doing anything bad with the pictures, I'm just trying to practice. She replied that she understood, but since she (and they) did not know him, she was *very* uncomfortable. He offered them free prints, if she would give him their address. She declined and he ended up deleting the pictures and leaving.
I asked her if he gave any kind of identification (card, name, etc.) and she said no, he never offered any of that, just that he told her he was staying with his grandparents up the river for a while. (Up the river makes sense to those of us around here. :P)
I found it interesting to hear this from an uneasy parent's point of view. Yes, they are in public. Yes, it was his "right" to be taking pictures. However, I think he could have done a couple of things to make her feel a bit more at ease -- starting by offering some identification.
Thoughts? |
You could have taken the opportunity to school some of these parents on the fact that it's not illegal to take a picture of their kids in public. ;D |
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06/02/2012 10:33:13 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
@ CS - I think the point is not whether it's legal or not. But unless you're a journalist covering a story on some particular kid in the park, etiquette should rule. |
Or common sense and the law. If we as a society gave in to the random etiquettes of particular groups or sections of society, it'd be very archaic.
CS
Message edited by author 2012-06-02 22:34:34. |
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06/02/2012 10:37:59 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
a parent's perspective
Today, one of the mom's on my son's travel baseball team told me something that happened this week at the little league field.
Her son's team was playing one day, and a man happened by and just stood and watched for a few minutes. They didn't think that much about it because it *is* a public park and they just assumed that it was one of the other team member's grandfather/uncle/friend etc.
Two days later, they are playing again, and he shows up again, this time with a camera. He took pictures of the boys for about 30 minutes and one of the moms ask him, "Do you have someone playing?"
He said, basically, no, but I'm not doing anything bad with the pictures, I'm just trying to practice. She replied that she understood, but since she (and they) did not know him, she was *very* uncomfortable. He offered them free prints, if she would give him their address. She declined and he ended up deleting the pictures and leaving.
I asked her if he gave any kind of identification (card, name, etc.) and she said no, he never offered any of that, just that he told her he was staying with his grandparents up the river for a while. (Up the river makes sense to those of us around here. :P)
I found it interesting to hear this from an uneasy parent's point of view. Yes, they are in public. Yes, it was his "right" to be taking pictures. However, I think he could have done a couple of things to make her feel a bit more at ease -- starting by offering some identification.
Thoughts? |
You could have taken the opportunity to school some of these parents on the fact that it's not illegal to take a picture of their kids in public. ;D |
I *could* have, and I did point out that they had a "legal right" to do it. I will also point out that at NO point did the parents ask the photog to stop or to leave, or even to delete the images. They never disputed his "right" to be there or to do what he was doing. They simply expressed their uneasiness about having a stranger studying their children (and, frankly, asking for their address was a boneheaded move, if you ask me).
Maybe it is different in larger communities, but around here, if you show up for a little league game, *someone* (or a lot of someones), even if you don't have a kid playing, will know you.
As far as worrying? There have been two incidences, one locally one near here, where a stranger approached a kid after observing the kids for a while and trying to get them to go with them. One of them was trying to get the child in a car when he (the adult) *thought* the parents weren't around or watching. The other was when a motorcycle rider approached 3 girls at a park and offered to take them for a ride. Not sure about the motorcycle incident, but the former incident was enough to pique the law enforcement's interest. |
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06/02/2012 10:48:15 PM · #13 |
| Well, trying to take kids somewhere is a lot different of a story. And I don't dispute any parents right to make sure their kids are safe. As a parent, I've always watched mine like a hawk and taught them about "stranger danger" long before it was a catch phrase. But I would never stop someone from taking a picture of them. I couldn't even think of an inappropriate way to take one if my kids/grandkids are in public, they are dressed and being watched. I might give someone my email address if they took a picture and asked for a way to contact me, but not a physical address. |
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06/02/2012 10:58:51 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by karmat:
There have been two incidences, one locally one near here, where a stranger approached a kid after observing the kids for a while and trying to get them to go with them. One of them was trying to get the child in a car when he (the adult) *thought* the parents weren't around or watching. The other was when a motorcycle rider approached 3 girls at a park and offered to take them for a ride. Not sure about the motorcycle incident, but the former incident was enough to pique the law enforcement's interest. |
I'll bet neither of them had cameras.
This still infuriates me:
//www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/perspectives/not-so-merry-at-the-mall-223984/
Message edited by author 2012-06-02 22:59:05. |
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06/03/2012 12:13:00 AM · #15 |
Two points,
when a team, club, group, or whatever rents an otherwise "Public" field for practice or games, that field is no longer "public" for that session and is under the direction of the board of the group that paid to use the field.
Second point, lots of people practice taking photos all the time. So he probably was just practicing, but yeah I might be a bit uneasy as well, that he was giving away free prints and not charging for them, he is trying to cut into your $$$ LOL |
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06/03/2012 02:03:43 AM · #16 |
Here's what happened to me last Mother's day. We had the "in the rain" challenge going on. Nice weather, no rain to shoot. I decided to go to the Seattle Center to shoot people running thru the big fountain and maybe I will find something wet to use for the challenge. I started shooting, yes lots of kids running in the water, as lots of adults. A mother came up to me and asked if I was shooting my own kids, I said no, she said, "Well I don't want you taking photos of my kids", I said "which ones are yours?" She pointed them out and I said I won't. i thought that was the end of that.
About 10 minutes later 5 cops pulled me aside for questioning, "Why are you taking pictures of kids?" I explained what I was doing and showed them my images. I must say the cops were very nice and professional. I also explained that if my shooting made any parent feel uncomfortable, then I don't want to do that. The mother called them, really pissed her off. I was polite to her, but she was uncomfortable. The cops said sense she called they had to make a report and asked me to shoot something else. I went on my way, not back to the fountain.
While what I was doing was totally legal and they couldn't stop me, I feel that if I make anyone uncomfortable, then I'm uncomfortable. Lesson learned. |
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06/03/2012 02:30:20 AM · #17 |
Since we're all sharing stories: I'll photograph kids in public, but I prefer to use my 50, which appears less intrusive and voyeuristic, and if I see a parent make eye contact with me, I always try to smile and wave. That said, I rarely take pictures of kids in public unless they're doing something particularly exciting, which causes far fewer questions because people of common sense can naturally realize the reason for what I'm doing.
The hardest time I've ever had shooting in public has been overseas, particularly in the Middle East. There is a lot of "from the hip" in my portfolio from that region. |
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06/03/2012 03:42:14 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Absolutely. I think parents everywhere are overreacting, but given the state of things these days, you can never be too careful. |
You somewhat contradict yourself there - yes, you CAN be too careful - that's a good part of what is wrong with society these days. Irrational, illogical unfounded fears. I have never heard of a pedophile or predator going around taking pictures of kids in public places - it may happen, but I think it is much like the idea that terrorists run around taking photos of buildings and bridges.
Frank's story just irks the crap out of me, but I'll admit that I would probably do what Frank and others have done when confronted - just capitulate to avoid the hassle, but I do think that the public (and some cops) need to be educated schooled on not only the rights of photographers in public places (Matt's points notwithstanding), but also informed about the irrationality of their fears (yeah, I know, good luck telling a parent they are irrational). Maybe someone could put a pamphlet together explaining the rights and the non-threatening reality of photographing anyone in public - I'd at least hand that to a parent or cop that approached me.
Side note: I took my camera out on the field at my son's tball games 3 times this (his first) season and I got some great shots of all the kids. Nobody ever asked me about it. Sure one of the kids was mine, but it was clear I was shooting all the kids. Went to the season ending pizza party tonight and gave all the parents a CD with 200 photos and they were stoked! :)
Another side note: As I was processing the photos, I noticed several suspicious characters captured in the images - they were outside the fence watching the kids and they weren't with any of the other parents. Hmmmm... but they didn't have cameras, so they were probably ok. ;-) |
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06/03/2012 03:53:48 AM · #19 |
I tend to avoid taking candids of kids, I'm pretty sensitive to the energy of people when I'm out on the street and people with kids seem to be a bit more on edge than the rest, guess that's natural.
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06/03/2012 04:23:42 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Maybe someone could put a pamphlet together explaining the rights and the non-threatening reality of photographing anyone in public - I'd at least hand that to a parent or cop that approached me. |
Photogragher's Rights PDF link.
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06/03/2012 04:35:29 AM · #21 |
Times have changed and with that peoples attitude/reaction. I would not take photos of children in public on purpose. I go out of my way when taking photos of my grandsons in public to try not to get any other children in the photo, not always possible of course but I am very aware of them.
Unlike  SwordandScales my experience of the middle east, though these were taken a few years ago, was/is different. I find when I go on holiday there people do not have the same concerns.
  
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06/03/2012 05:21:42 AM · #22 |
I think this parents stare sums it up for me.
This was taken at a busy shopping centre with a 70-200 at the long end.
Shooting in the street at kids is risky as the parent right or wrong will always have the high ground.
I shoot a lot of my clubs jjunior athletics meetings and have never had a problem although the officials from our club know me the other clubs don't.
We have other photographers turn up but as long as you speak to the officials you wouldn't have a problem. |
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06/03/2012 06:16:06 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by The_Tourist:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Maybe someone could put a pamphlet together explaining the rights and the non-threatening reality of photographing anyone in public - I'd at least hand that to a parent or cop that approached me. |
Photogragher's Rights PDF link. |
Great link, but deals exclusively with the law as it applies in the USA.
Should you ever visit the province of Quebec, and take photos that will be displayed publicly you could end up in court.
Ray |
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06/03/2012 06:27:18 AM · #24 |
A while back I was in a quaint little town and saw a gentleman on a bench playing an accordion. I asked if I could take his photo and he consented. While taking his photo, this little girl ran in front of him, followed by her shrieking mother, yelling at me that I could not take her daughter's photo.
I explained to her the difference between "can't" and "shouldn't, told her to get her child out of my shot, took a photo of my subject and left.
Everyone was happy... I think.
Ray |
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06/03/2012 06:41:44 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by The_Tourist:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Maybe someone could put a pamphlet together explaining the rights and the non-threatening reality of photographing anyone in public - I'd at least hand that to a parent or cop that approached me. |
Photogragher's Rights PDF link. |
Great link, but deals exclusively with the law as it applies in the USA. |
It needs to be combined also with a friendly "chill out" message as well though. |
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