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08/11/2004 11:03:19 AM · #151 |
To all of those who want to see outtakes posted whenever, can any of you answer this one question.
If it is an out take for a current challenge what is the big deal with waiting until at least the voting for the challenge has began before posting it in the forum?
I understand sometimes it can help you if you are having a problem and yeah most of us do have others we ask for opinions from prior to a challenge. But I am sure if you just have the photo in your portfolio no one is really going to notice it except those who you may ask for help.
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08/11/2004 11:06:25 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
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I am not arguing against any of that ... I am arguing against the relatively new phenomenon of posting those pictures in these forums during the submission period.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that sharing the images already happens. I would claim that it was more fair if it happens actually in the forums, on this site. It certainly gives everyone who is interested the most easy access to participate and to learn from those images that are shown.
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08/11/2004 11:10:04 AM · #153 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
To all of those who want to see outtakes posted whenever, can any of you answer this one question.
If it is an out take for a current challenge what is the big deal with waiting until at least the voting for the challenge has began before posting it in the forum?
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Can you answer it the other way. What's the big deal with not waiting ?
How does it actually diminish the quality of the image that anyone was actually entering ?
If you realise that your idea isn't as original as you thought - how is your idea suddenly changed ? You have more information. You are better able to make a good image.
If you realise that your picture isn't as good as an outtake posted - how is your entry suddenly changed ? You now have a better idea of the potential standard your image should achieve. Perhaps you might even be inspired to re-shoot it. Maybe you just learn some more about how it could potentially have been better shot.
So I'd ask again - how does learning more about the quality of your idea or submission reduce either your learning experience at dpc, if it is a learning site, or your ability to compete, if it is a competition.
Now, if you don't believe it is either a means to learn or a competition, then there might be reasons to push back revelation that your idea wasn't original or well taken until after voting. But honestly, I find that more a case of wanting to be deluded for a bit longer.
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08/11/2004 11:21:16 AM · #154 |
If you had an entry in a science fair, how would you feel about someone setting up their "second choice project" in the hallway outside the judging studio, "just to get some feedback?"
We have a structure for submitting photos on a stated topic. What's wrong with asking everyone to follow the same pathway to feedback?
No one says you can't submit post pictures on other topics in the forums for feedback, education, inspiration, whatever ...
And, to go WAY back to the beginning of the thread, I did appreciate that the poster included links and not actual images ... but part of the reason this thread got "hit" so hard was that it was a specific invitation for others to post images, which could get WAY out of control (check "Post your Sunset Pic" or similar thread) -- if it had just been a request for "comment on my pics" with the links to those images it would not be nearly so big a deal.
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 11:27:12. |
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08/11/2004 11:29:15 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Kavey:
I agree that there is no need to post one's own outtakes etc but I still think it's often VERY helpful to post examples of the challenge theme technique or examples that fit the theme in threads discussing ideas and concepts.
Would be interesting to hear some comments from those SC who voted against the rule change. |
I'd like to hear from any of them (besides EddyG) myself! |
This is as far as I have gotten so far in this thread (08/10/2004 05:35:06 PM), but, since you basically asked so nicely :) I will comply and reply.
I strongly feel that we need to be able to keep the topic of photography open on this site. I personally do not feel that all the arbitrary political discussions, for example, are necessary. Taking away photographic discussions of any kind would only add to those negative threads.
However, like in all things, there must be limits if there is harm being done to the "primary objective". The primary objective is the challenges.
I originally voted "no" to the SC poll as I did not want to squash the photographic discussions. I have now changed my vote, but in so doing, I still want to be able to keep these discussions alive.
I agree with GeneralE and EddyG that outtakes can be discussed after challenge voting has ended.
As it influences "current challenge" ideas and brainstorming, I think we all need to use a bit of common sense on that.
Now, I will continue to catch up on this thread. |
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08/11/2004 12:19:14 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by KarenB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
[quote=Kavey] ...I'd like to hear from any of them (besides EddyG) myself! |
...
However, like in all things, there must be limits if there is harm being done to the "primary objective". The primary objective is the challenges.
I originally voted "no" to the SC poll as I did not want to squash the photographic discussions. I have now changed my vote, but in so doing, I still want to be able to keep these discussions alive.
I agree with GeneralE and EddyG that outtakes can be discussed after challenge voting has ended.
As it influences "current challenge" ideas and brainstorming, I think we all need to use a bit of common sense on that.
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KarenB, you said it best. IMO, outtake discussion before voting has ended would tend to diminish the spontaneity of entries. And that, I think, is what makes this site so exciting and addictive.
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08/11/2004 01:17:52 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
To all of those who want to see outtakes posted whenever, can any of you answer this one question.
If it is an out take for a current challenge what is the big deal with waiting until at least the voting for the challenge has began before posting it in the forum?
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Can you answer it the other way. What's the big deal with not waiting ?
How does it actually diminish the quality of the image that anyone was actually entering ?
If you realise that your idea isn't as original as you thought - how is your idea suddenly changed ? You have more information. You are better able to make a good image.
If you realise that your picture isn't as good as an outtake posted - how is your entry suddenly changed ? You now have a better idea of the potential standard your image should achieve. Perhaps you might even be inspired to re-shoot it. Maybe you just learn some more about how it could potentially have been better shot.
So I'd ask again - how does learning more about the quality of your idea or submission reduce either your learning experience at dpc, if it is a learning site, or your ability to compete, if it is a competition.
Now, if you don't believe it is either a means to learn or a competition, then there might be reasons to push back revelation that your idea wasn't original or well taken until after voting. But honestly, I find that more a case of wanting to be deluded for a bit longer. |
First rule in education is never answer a question with a question.
I asked my question and before I answer yours why don't you try answering mine.
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08/11/2004 01:26:19 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
To all of those who want to see outtakes posted whenever, can any of you answer this one question.
If it is an out take for a current challenge what is the big deal with waiting until at least the voting for the challenge has began before posting it in the forum?
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Can you answer it the other way. What's the big deal with not waiting ?
How does it actually diminish the quality of the image that anyone was actually entering ?
If you realise that your idea isn't as original as you thought - how is your idea suddenly changed ? You have more information. You are better able to make a good image.
If you realise that your picture isn't as good as an outtake posted - how is your entry suddenly changed ? You now have a better idea of the potential standard your image should achieve. Perhaps you might even be inspired to re-shoot it. Maybe you just learn some more about how it could potentially have been better shot.
So I'd ask again - how does learning more about the quality of your idea or submission reduce either your learning experience at dpc, if it is a learning site, or your ability to compete, if it is a competition.
Now, if you don't believe it is either a means to learn or a competition, then there might be reasons to push back revelation that your idea wasn't original or well taken until after voting. But honestly, I find that more a case of wanting to be deluded for a bit longer. |
First rule in education is never answer a question with a question.
I asked my question and before I answer yours why don't you try answering mine. |
There is no big deal with waiting. There are however several advantages for all, from a learning and improved competition perspective, to sharing them prior to the vote.
Nor do I believe there is a big deal with not waiting. In fact, I think it potentially improves the submissions of all, if they care to take advantage of it.
I look forward to an illuminating answer to why it is a big deal and damaging to the creativity of submitters, learning aspects of inexperienced photographers or challenge/ competition aspects of the site.
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 13:38:39.
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08/11/2004 01:35:03 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
If it is an out take for a current challenge what is the big deal with waiting until at least the voting for the challenge has began before posting it in the forum? |
Because we have no patience. Could we wait until the challenge has ended? NO! Well... OK. If we HAVE to. ;-p
Influencing others isn't always a bad thing, either. If my unused shot gives you a better idea and you still have time to shoot it, then what's the harm in that? You get a better score and I get to see a better picture. Some of the finest images on this site are posted as outtakes, etc. and never appear in a challenge.
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08/11/2004 01:59:12 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
If it is an out take for a current challenge what is the big deal with waiting until at least the voting for the challenge has began before posting it in the forum? |
Because we have no patience. Could we wait until the challenge has ended? NO! Well... OK. If we HAVE to. ;-p
Influencing others isn't always a bad thing, either. If my unused shot gives you a better idea and you still have time to shoot it, then what's the harm in that? You get a better score and I get to see a better picture. Some of the finest images on this site are posted as outtakes, etc. and never appear in a challenge.
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Ok now my 3 biggest complaints about posting out takes prior to the beginning of voting.
First is it does ruin things for some people. I chose to sit this out simply because of this thread...when I saw the train tracks photo I thought no there are just going to be way to many of them and are there? YES...there are way to many train track photos in this challenge. But I was persauded because of this thread so there ya go it does persaude people also in negative ways.
Secondly, I fell posting your out takes here too soon can tarnish the voting. you see the three images in the thread then go to vote and you are already thinking train tracks, construction and roads so the first 30 or so entries all have one of those elements and the voter then reacts to them, cause they were in forum as out takes.
Finally, the biggest reason I hate premature out takes in any challenge is a thread like this one...Those of us who have been here a while know that there is going to be someone who just can't stand seeing images prior to a challenge for whatever there personal reason is and will complain in the thread and then suddenly you have a huge blown out debate about the pros and cons of premature posting of out takes.
So with all that said...geee just have a little patience and wait that out take isn't going to change its appearance any, and if you are having a problem and don't know what to do about it...Make your thread more like "HELP! I can't seem to get rid of the graininess" rather than "This is my out take"
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08/11/2004 02:47:40 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Ok now my 3 biggest complaints about posting out takes prior to the beginning of voting.
First is it does ruin things for some people. I chose to sit this out simply because of this thread...when I saw the train tracks photo I thought no there are just going to be way to many of them and are there? YES...there are way to many train track photos in this challenge. But I was persauded because of this thread so there ya go it does persaude people also in negative ways.
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There would still be plenty of images of train tracks without this thread. It was pretty obvious before this thread that there would be plenty of images of train tracks. I'm not entirely convinced that its a negative that you came to realise that prior to entering.
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Secondly, I fell posting your out takes here too soon can tarnish the voting. you see the three images in the thread then go to vote and you are already thinking train tracks, construction and roads so the first 30 or so entries all have one of those elements and the voter then reacts to them, cause they were in forum as out takes.
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I think in that case, the 30 images in the challenge probably do more harm than the 3 in the thread. In fact, if the threads convince people not enter a load more of the same image, you could argue that it actually improves the voting. Again - an unoriginal idea is unorginal, if it was openly shared in a thread or not. Once more, nothing to do with these sorts of threads.
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Finally, the biggest reason I hate premature out takes in any challenge is a thread like this one...Those of us who have been here a while know that there is going to be someone who just can't stand seeing images prior to a challenge for whatever there personal reason is and will complain in the thread and then suddenly you have a huge blown out debate about the pros and cons of premature posting of out takes.
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So you are mainly bothered by these threads because you, for example, are bothered about these threads to the point that you complain about them, and you are mainly bothered about the complaining ? That seems simple enough for you to fix too...
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 14:48:38.
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08/11/2004 02:59:22 PM · #162 |
My reasons are just as simple to fix as your reason...
Patience is after all a virtue.
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08/11/2004 03:28:02 PM · #163 |
There were going to be LOTs of train tracks and roads in the vanishing point challenge with or without a picture posted in a thread. If viewing this thread made you suddenly realize the obvious, then I can't see that as a negative. I'm sure just as many people were inspired by the example to do something different or improve upon the concept. If I post a picture of a flower, does that mean you're sitting out the Botany challenge?
Few outtake threads ever top 100 views (unless they stir controversy like this). Many of the views are from the same person revisiting the thread, and some of those viewers won't vote on the challenge, so even if there were some influence it would be tiny. BTW- are you influenced by one or two train track outtakes you saw in a forum thread, or the dozens you saw while voting? How do those clone entries manage to avoid contaminating your eyeballs in the same way? C'mon, this is just plain silly.
Your biggest problem with these posts is the reaction of people like yourself? You win that point.
You've suggested naming the thread something other than "outtake" as a solution when that should be your cue to avoid clicking on the thread in the first place. After all, it might cause undue prejudice in your voting or entry by showing one obvious solution to a challenge filled with 30 examples of the same obvious solution.
Nothing personal OSS. I just find the whole issue laughable, though I have no problem waiting to post an outtake if it will prevent this odd hysteria.
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 15:29:56. |
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08/11/2004 04:34:19 PM · #164 |
the railroad tracks, roadways and construction sites were just an example of this challenge...but it happens all the time with out takes in challenges where the photos being shown sway votes...and I know they do there is no way anyone can say they don't.
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08/11/2004 04:38:04 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
the railroad tracks, roadways and construction sites were just an example of this challenge...but it happens all the time with out takes in challenges where the photos being shown sway votes...and I know they do there is no way anyone can say they don't. |
True, it obviously must change how you vote, Anna.
Why don't you take each image on merit ?
Do you find you lower votes on images that you've seen before in other places, or is only ones you've looked at in outtake threads that you single out to vote lower ? Just curious how it makes you change your particular votes.
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08/11/2004 04:41:10 PM · #166 |
I would have replied earlier, but only just looked at this thread..
OneSweetSin, GeneralE.. Fair enough to make your opinion known, but kyebosh has only been a user since the 20th of June, having participated in two challenges in that time.. Ranting at a newbie seems rather harsh, to me.. |
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08/11/2004 04:55:02 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
I would have replied earlier, but only just looked at this thread..
OneSweetSin, GeneralE.. Fair enough to make your opinion known, but kyebosh has only been a user since the 20th of June, having participated in two challenges in that time.. Ranting at a newbie seems rather harsh, to me.. |
1. I didn't research the person's profile, I responded to what was written
2. What exactly did I say which you find out of line? My only reference to profanity was to ask someone else to be more careful in how they express it in the forums. I didn't call anyone names. I try to present reasons for the opinions I express.
3. After more than one month, someone could have entered 8-10 challenges, and read innumerable posts. I'm not sure that newbieness is an adequate defense in this case. : )
Since I share responsibility for moderating the behavior of people posting in these forums, I'd certainly like to know where you think the line was crossed, especially since I usually try to be quite careful in such matters -- once you write something on the internet, it will never disappear completely, it will just gradually become harder to find. |
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08/11/2004 04:57:18 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
True, it obviously must change how you vote, Anna.
Why don't you take each image on merit ?
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Honestly I can't say what it is but this challenge is probably got the lowest scores I have even given...I can only think of 4 photos so far that I have scored above a 6 and that isn't normal for me. Although I will admit one of those 4 did have a train track in it...lol
It might just be this entire challenge...after so long of looking at lines that draw the attention to a certain point and then end...they just don't look enticing anymore.
I do vote on merit...always have.
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08/11/2004 05:00:21 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
2. What exactly did I say which you find out of line? |
I agree with Paul, to me calling the guy "selfish" and telling him to get in line "like the rest of us" seems pretty harsh. Especially for someone who has been mandated with moderating these forums.
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 17:01:45.
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08/11/2004 05:09:11 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
1. I didn't research the person's profile, I responded to what was written
2. What exactly did I say which you find out of line? My only reference to profanity was to ask someone else to be more careful in how they express it in the forums. I didn't call anyone names. I try to present reasons for the opinions I express. |
I thought this paragraph was a little 'assertive' :-) ->
"Give me one good reason why pictures not entered should get favored treatment, in direct competition with those of us who have entered a photo, and have to wait over a week longer for our feedback."
Mainly due to the emphasis.
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate where you're coming from - there are things that really wind me up! And if it was someone who's been on the site a while, then maybe they need setting straight if they're serial offenders.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
3. After more than one month, someone could have entered 8-10 challenges, and read innumerable posts. I'm not sure that newbieness is an adequate defense in this case. : ) |
They could have, but as they've only entered two challenges I'm taking it they're probably being quite tentative in their participation. |
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08/11/2004 05:11:10 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
...the photos being shown sway votes...and I know they do there is no way anyone can say they don't. |
If a handful of outtakes can have such an affect, your votes must be SERIOUSLY tainted by the time you reach the 20% minimum. I assume that any prior entries or favorites you may have seen are safely shielded in some way to prevent them from further clouding your judgement? Perhaps you could cleanse the visual palate by staring at a blank sheet of paper between votes. ;-) |
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08/11/2004 05:14:28 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by mariomel:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
2. What exactly did I say which you find out of line? |
I agree with Paul, to me calling the guy "selfish" and telling him to get in line "like the rest of us" seems pretty harsh. Especially for someone who has been mandated with moderating these forums. |
Well it's about time someon ... wait, you mean the other PaulM ... : )
I didn't call him selfish. I said that I found the practice of creating a thread asking for personal, individual feedback on a photo related to the current topic, for which everyone else is submitting to the challenge and then waiting (praying?) for comments, to be a selfish one. That is my opinion. You are free to disagree to any degree you like. |
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08/11/2004 05:25:53 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
3. After more than one month, someone could have entered 8-10 challenges, and read innumerable posts. I'm not sure that newbieness is an adequate defense in this case. : ) |
They could have, but as they've only entered two challenges I'm taking it they're probably being quite tentative in their participation. |
I neither know nor control that. By the time I'd been here as long as this user I'd entered six challenges, had one DQ, and been invited to join the Site Council. We all find our own level of participation ... my point is there was opportunity for the user to have learned something of the pros and cons and the history of posting challenge-related images.
Besides, as I've pointed out, the point of the intervention was to prevent any increase in the recent proliferation of these types of postings, not to in any way punish this individual user.
Wasn't the "assertive" paragraph you cited in direct response to someone else's post? Perhaps a good idea would be to use the Underline or Italic forms of emphasis as they are generally perceived as less assertive than BOLD! : )
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 17:26:21. |
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08/11/2004 09:23:39 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
...the photos being shown sway votes...and I know they do there is no way anyone can say they don't. |
If a handful of outtakes can have such an affect, your votes must be SERIOUSLY tainted by the time you reach the 20% minimum. I assume that any prior entries or favorites you may have seen are safely shielded in some way to prevent them from further clouding your judgement? Perhaps you could cleanse the visual palate by staring at a blank sheet of paper between votes. ;-) |
Even more tainted if it's OK to look at images from previous challenges for "inspiration" which some people hypocritically said was alright, but outtakes weren't.
Previously submitted challenge entries have scores and comments, how is that any different to posting outtakes and recieving virtual scores or comments? Anyone foolish enough to post an outtake that gives away his/her entry is most likely getting a low score anyway.
If a photo is in the challenge, it's a contender. If it's NOT in the challenge--whether a submission in a previous challenge, an outtake, a random image on the net, or another image in your portfolio--it always has and always should be irrelevant to scoring in the current challenge. |
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08/12/2004 01:40:52 PM · #175 |
The obvious solution to everyone's problems is to post all the pictures you like, making sure to replace 'out-take' with 'picture that I just took, enjoy, and wanted to share'. By removing any reference to a currently running contest, nobody can complain, unless they advocate the banning of showing any picture related in any way to any contest that's not 100% complete.
OneSweetSin:
Shame on you for blaming your own lack of motivation on seeing another person's picture, and by implication on that person. Nobody is forcing you to avoid a contest. If you are worried that your idea is not original enough because you see someone else's picture, whether that picture is related to the current contest or not, get up off your ass and either shoot something new or try your hardest to take the best damn picture anyone has ever taken of that unoriginal subject. There are already billions of photographs out there... undoubtedly there are many of almost anything you could ever possibly want to take a picture of. Just because you happen to be exposed to one here doesn't change this at all, if anything it should hilight the fact that these other images exist. Original does not equal good, so why not focus on good? If you see a picture better than yours, think about what makes it better, then apply that thinking to your own work. Hell, why not ask the photographer how they did it? Maybe you'll make someone's day, and learn something in the process.
GeneralE:
In my opinion, comments are not a limited resource or a zero-sum game. If you are truly worried that pictures posted to forums 'take away' from the feedback provided to those submitted to the contests, what difference does it make if the picture is related to a currently running contest or not? Why not ban all discussion of any picture outside of the comments box? I simply don't see the distinction you're trying to draw.
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