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08/10/2004 04:56:20 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Perhaps because it was too broad a question? Breaking it down into bits might help clarify what specifically people agree with and what they disagree with. |
This was the exact question in the poll:
Should we limit the posting of "out-take"-type threads/replies until after voting for a challenge has ended?
Feel free to post how you would have worded it better.
Originally posted by Kavey:
You may think they are the same thing. Others, including myself, don't agree |
Then it is trivial to circumvent any "no out-take" rule by simply posting your out-takes and lying about them and saying "I took these last week, how would they have done? Do you think they meet the challenge?"
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 16:56:57. |
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08/10/2004 04:59:43 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Perhaps because it was too broad a question? Breaking it down into bits might help clarify what specifically people agree with and what they disagree with. |
This was the exact question in the poll:
Should we limit the posting of "out-take"-type threads/replies until after voting for a challenge has ended?
Feel free to post how you would have worded it better. |
No I couldn't have. I assumed from what you said that you meant the poll was about the entire issue of forum etiquette.
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
You may think they are the same thing. Others, including myself, don't agree |
Then it is trivial to circumvent any "no out-take" rule by simply posting your out-takes and lying about them and saying "I took these last week, how would they have done? Do you think they meet the challenge?" |
It is trivial to circumvent most rules of the site if you put it like that. One can set a camera dates wrongly, one can lie about all manner of things.
This site operates on an honour system and relies in all sorts of areas on people being honest within the posted rules. I'd assume we would operate to that same standard on this issue and there would be a few cheaters as there are in other areas. Overwhelmingly I think most members would respect the rules, as they do now.
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08/10/2004 05:03:12 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
It is trivial to circumvent most rules of the site if you put it like that. One can set a camera dates wrongly, one can lie about all manner of things. |
But if there is a rule about not posting links to specific images and discussing how they do or don't relate to a challenge -- in public and during submission/voting (two key points) -- then you don't have to worry about anybody lying and getting an unfair advantage. The dishonest people benefit from the input they receive through deception, while the honest people suffer.
I'd much rather have a more-strict rule and encourage "brainstorming" in the web-based DPCfanatics chat room or via PM, for example.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 17:06:21. |
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08/10/2004 05:06:02 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
It is trivial to circumvent most rules of the site if you put it like that. One can set a camera dates wrongly, one can lie about all manner of things. |
But if there is a rule about not posting links to specific images and discussing how they do or don't relate to a challenge in public, then you don't have to worry about anybody lying and getting an unfair advantage. The dishonest people benefit from the input they receive through deception, while the honest people suffer.
I'd much rather have a more-strict rule and encourage "brainstorming" in the web-based DPCfanatics chat room or via PM, for example. |
Maybe pushing for a stricter rule that encompasses discussion of ideas and concept is what's stopping you from getting sufficient votes on the idea at all?
I'd suggest that going for the smaller rule first might at least get that issue sorted and then go after the other issue of discussing ideas and concepts afterwards if it still bugs you?
Just a suggestion though. I'm not SC so I'm not privvy to all the discussions you had along with that vote.
:o)
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08/10/2004 05:13:32 PM · #105 |
This seems fairly silly to me. If someone wants clarification of a challenge description, we would no longer be able to provide an example to explain the concept. Nevermind that few would even think of reproducing that specific example for the challenge, and I doubt that many would change their image if they had a similar idea. Banning outtakes before/during a challenge might create a problem during an entire Free Study month, or someone could draw a connection to the challenge on a totally unrelated shot (we've got a Botany challenge coming up, so nobody can post a flower or plant shot for two weeks...).
Is the concern simply that posting an outtake might influence the votes if a similar image is entered? I've voted on MANY images that I recognized from similar past challenge entries- some were better than the original and some were not. The photographer might have been inspired by the earlier entry or came up with the same idea independently. There are often similar entries within any given challenge as well. These cases demonstrate the folly of trying to keep voters isolated from outside images until a challenge is over- we have a rich heritage of photos in past challenges that the voters have already seen (not to mention other sites).
Part of your task is to come up with something original for the challenge. If you do that, then who cares about somebody else's outtake? Lighten up, folks! Go take your own pictures, and stop wringing your hands over the competition- there are only winners here! |
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08/10/2004 05:29:44 PM · #106 |
The "idea" is to not have open discussion of images related to the challenge being voted on during the voting. We are not supposed to discuss challenge entries during the voting period.
To me, it is obvious that discussion of similar or related images necessarily influences the perception a voter has of the remaining photos -- if they weren't looking to alter their viewpoint why were they looking at that thread?
Overall, I find the practice has a definite potential for harmful effects, with little countervailing argument of necessity for the early postings.
What would you think if I started a thread
=========================Help Me Pick!
I can't decide between picture {THUMB AAA} and picture {THUMB BBB} for the upcoming ZZZ Challenge -- can you all tell me which is better?
=========================
If you allow posting of an individual's challenge-related photo before the submission deadline, that is the EXACT effect, despite any disingenuous title of "Out-take" the poster may apply to the thread.
I know of cases where someone posted an image they originally had no intention of entering, but a few "Wow -- that would work great in the ABC challenge" comments later they withdrew it from the forum and entered it in the challenge.
That type of posting has always been done off-site, with solicitations of assistance made by PM, email, or a text-based link. There is no need to post any challenge-related photo in a DPC forum prior to the completion of voting on that challenge.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 17:33:10. |
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08/10/2004 05:33:19 PM · #107 |
I agree that there is no need to post one's own outtakes etc but I still think it's often VERY helpful to post examples of the challenge theme technique or examples that fit the theme in threads discussing ideas and concepts.
Would be interesting to hear some comments from those SC who voted against the rule change.
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08/10/2004 05:35:06 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
I agree that there is no need to post one's own outtakes etc but I still think it's often VERY helpful to post examples of the challenge theme technique or examples that fit the theme in threads discussing ideas and concepts.
Would be interesting to hear some comments from those SC who voted against the rule change. |
I'd like to hear from any of them (besides EddyG) myself!
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 17:35:27. |
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08/10/2004 05:35:55 PM · #109 |
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08/10/2004 05:40:00 PM · #110 |
If site council was to close to decide why not do a poll of members.
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08/10/2004 05:43:32 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
If site council was to close to decide why not do a poll of members. |
From an old song ...
Don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answers that you want me to |
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08/10/2004 05:45:53 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
If site council was to close to decide why not do a poll of members. |
From an old song ...
Don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answers that you want me to |
So very true...hey make me part of site council and Kavey too just for the time it takes to vote on this issue a second time...lol I'm not trying to sway the vote or anything.
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08/10/2004 05:45:53 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
If site council was to close to decide why not do a poll of members. |
From an old song ...
Don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answers that you want me to |
Oh Well. |
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08/10/2004 05:49:58 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
If site council was to close to decide why not do a poll of members. |
From an old song ...
Don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answers that you want me to |
LOL, very apt!
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08/10/2004 06:11:28 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Coincidentally, the topic of "Forum Etiquette" (of which posting out-takes was a key part) has been being discussed amongst the SC members for the past couple weeks. I posted an SC-only poll last week. The vote was in favor (61%) of supporting such a "rule", but there were enough people (39%) who disagreed that no official action in the form of making a "Forum Etiquette" announcement was posted.
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Now I'm curious. a) Does there need to be a quorum? A certain percentage of vots 66 2/3%, or 75%, or unanimous?
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08/10/2004 06:21:06 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...if they weren't looking to alter their viewpoint why were they looking at that thread? |
To see nice pictures. Any worry you might have over one challenge-related photo influencing your vote is moot because you will have seen 100-400 entries by the time you finish voting anyway. So what? If you can't vote objectively after seeing related images, then don't vote at all.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
What would you think if I started a thread ... I can't decide between picture {THUMB AAA} and picture {THUMB BBB} for the upcoming ZZZ Challenge -- can you all tell me which is better? |
I would think that you are discussing a specific entry before/during a challenge, which is not what we're talking about here. We all know that's taboo.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...I know of cases where someone posted an image they originally had no intention of entering, but a few "Wow -- that would work great in the ABC challenge" comments later they withdrew it from the forum and entered it in the challenge. |
I've seen it happen too (on rare occasions). Usually there is a comment within the same thread (often from SC members) along the lines of, "it's bad to enter an image that you've already posted in a thread, but since there have only been 4 views you might be OK if you remove it right away." The vast majority know better, but I suppose a hasty retraction with few views isn't much different than showing your friends or a member spouse.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
There is no need to post any challenge-related photo in a DPC forum prior to the completion of voting on that challenge. |
Sure there is. "I'm a newbie/my English is rusty. Can somebody show me an example of soft focus so I can get an idea of how that differs from out-of-focus for the challenge?" This is precisely why there's a Current Challenge section in the forums.
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08/10/2004 06:46:57 PM · #117 |
I'm a bit curious about why the prevailing attitude here seems to be that influencing someone to go out and re-shoot a photo because they decide it's not good enough for the challenge after seeing some out-takes is a Bad Thing.
Since when is it bad to be motivated to improve your own work because you've been inspired by someone else? To spin it the other way around seems to be the height of pessimism to me. It's not like we don't have a huge history of entries that you could 'shame' yourself with because they're oh so much better than you could ever do. If that were a real concern, why would anyone but the top 10 photographers ever submit a photograph at all? Drawing a distinction between 'this contest' and 'that contest' and how it influences your decision on what or even whether to submit feels quite arbitrary to me.
Frankly, I'll take my inspiration (shame?) any way I can get it. If something gets me to go out and re-shoot, or simply gets me to think more critically about my own work, I say thanks. Do we all really want to work in a creative void until everything's out of our hands and the voting has ended? Would we not all benefit from sharing information, ideas, and techniques before making our final decisions?
Is your precious score really so important that the slightest leak of information must always be cast as a taint and never (heaven forbid) be seen as something positive?
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08/10/2004 06:54:33 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
There is no need to post any challenge-related photo in a DPC forum prior to the completion of voting on that challenge. |
Sure there is. "I'm a newbie/my English is rusty. Can somebody show me an example of soft focus so I can get an idea of how that differs from out-of-focus for the challenge?" This is precisely why there's a Current Challenge section in the forums. |
Head, nail, hit it! If it worries people so much then just dont read the current challenge discussion threads - problem solved :)
Or (as mentioned in a previous thread) the SC can ban all pic posts for a 14 day period during an open challenge or pics with blue in them during a blue challenge etc etc and at the same time denying access to previous challenges, members portfolios or maybe access to the internet or even galleries, maybe this should become a site for blind photographers (though not sure how the voting will work). Jeez, if the quality of submissions goes up due to discussion thats a good thing (isnt it?). I'm learning heeps here and if my learning gets stiffled by new/tougher rules and regulations I'll go elsewhere, I won't be missed and I sure as hell won't miss the constant bickering.
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08/10/2004 06:54:36 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm a bit curious about why the prevailing attitude here seems to be that influencing someone to go out and re-shoot a photo because they decide it's not good enough for the challenge after seeing some out-takes is a Bad Thing.
Since when is it bad to be motivated to improve your own work because you've been inspired by someone else? To spin it the other way around seems to be the height of pessimism to me. It's not like we don't have a huge history of entries that you could 'shame' yourself with because they're oh so much better than you could ever do. If that were a real concern, why would anyone but the top 10 photographers ever submit a photograph at all? Drawing a distinction between 'this contest' and 'that contest' and how it influences your decision on what or even whether to submit feels quite arbitrary to me.
Frankly, I'll take my inspiration (shame?) any way I can get it. If something gets me to go out and re-shoot, or simply gets me to think more critically about my own work, I say thanks. Do we all really want to work in a creative void until everything's out of our hands and the voting has ended? Would we not all benefit from sharing information, ideas, and techniques before making our final decisions?
Is your precious score really so important that the slightest leak of information must always be cast as a taint and never (heaven forbid) be seen as something positive? |
I tend to agree. Unless you have a stunningly original idea, it is likely that many others have already thought of it. If, particularly, it appears in a pile that someone has already considered and moved beyond, it might even be considered useful to get that information. The idea for example that railroad tracks for 'vanishing point' was somehow original and now damaged goods and not worth shooting is faintly bizzare. If it was good enough before, even though it has been done a huge amount, and could almost have been used in the definition of the challenge, it is still good enough to shoot. The originality can always exist in how you execute on tired, trite subjects.
Just to stir the pot a bit more, here are a couple of oh so original holiday snaps from an indeterminate amount of time ago:
Some advice for free. If you thought a road, or a railway vanishing off in to the distance was an original idea that nobody else would have, then sorry - it isn't. Get over it. You can still photograph these better than the average version and get a great result with it. Consider it a challenge, from DPChallenge.
I catagorically do not see any issue with a frank and free exchange of ideas that meet the challenge up to and honestly, even during, the voting period.
If we are here to learn, it promotes learning and exchange of ideas. Assuming it already happens in a variety of 'off site' venues, this just improves the learning by endorsing similar free exchanges on site. Some are no doubt shown better examples of ideas they have already attempted. If they want to learn - then they have a good example of ways they could improve. The site wins. Participants who actually want to learn and improve win.
If we are here to compete, then raising the general level of ideas or at least allowing the pool of cliched and repeated ideas to be more visible, again helps the site. More creative ideas are encouraged, some are no doubt challenged to improve their current entries. Others will no doubt be inspired to go and shoot something else, or even more creatively interpret an existing idea.
Other than damaged pride, or hurt hubris, I would like to hear why open exchange of ideas and concepts is actually a bad thing.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 19:00:48. |
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08/10/2004 07:07:35 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Some advice for free. If you thought a road, or a railway vanishing off in to the distance was an original idea that nobody else would have, then sorry - it isn't. Get over it. You can still photograph these better than the average version and get a great result with it. Consider it a challenge, from DPChallenge.
I catagorically do not see any issue with a frank and free exchange of ideas that meet the challenge up to and honestly, even during, the voting period.
If we are here to learn, it promotes learning and exchange of ideas. Assuming it already happens in a variety of 'off site' venues, this just improves the learning by endorsing similar free exchanges on site. Some are no doubt shown better examples of ideas they have already attempted. If they want to learn - then they have a good example of ways they could improve. The site wins. Participants who actually want to learn and improve win.
If we are here to compete, then raising the general level of ideas or at least allowing the pool of cliched and repeated ideas to be more visible, again helps the site. More creative ideas are encouraged, some are no doubt challenged to improve their current entries. Others will no doubt be inspired to go and shoot something else, or even more creatively interpret an existing idea.
Other than damaged pride, or hurt hubris, I would like to hear why open exchange of ideas and concepts is actually a bad thing. |
Very well put Gordon. We are here to learn, exchange ideas, and better ourselves as photographers, through BOTH the challenges and the forums.
All the while, we should remember that we are here to HAVE FUN too! I think we sometimes forget that point.
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08/10/2004 07:14:53 PM · #121 |
Also:
I'd like to see us decouple 'original' from 'good'. Just because something is original doesn't mean it's any good, unless novelty has suddenly become the litmus for quality. I don't think it has.
I think people here are blurring this distinction to make a point.
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08/10/2004 07:15:55 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Kavey:
I agree that there is no need to post one's own outtakes etc but I still think it's often VERY helpful to post examples of the challenge theme technique or examples that fit the theme in threads discussing ideas and concepts.
Would be interesting to hear some comments from those SC who voted against the rule change. |
I'd like to hear from any of them (besides EddyG) myself! |
I voted FOR The rule change. I did so for precisely this type of thread and threads like this one which have come before it. I think they take away unduly from challenge entries and those ought to be the focus of comments/critiques because those photos are out there asking to be judged and being unafraid of any number representation of its appeal.
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08/10/2004 10:15:49 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Also:
I'd like to see us decouple 'original' from 'good'. Just because something is original doesn't mean it's any good, unless novelty has suddenly become the litmus for quality. I don't think it has.
I think people here are blurring this distinction to make a point. |
For reference, here is another very unoriginal idea. I think several people entered the same idea in that challenge. In fact, I seem to remember the idea being mentioned quite a lot in threads too.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 22:16:16. |
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08/10/2004 10:54:44 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm a bit curious about why the prevailing attitude here seems to be that influencing someone to go out and re-shoot a photo because they decide it's not good enough for the challenge after seeing some out-takes is a Bad Thing. |
Because people are not being treated equally. If we ALL got the chance to get some pre-challenge advice from the DPC community it might be OK, but the general way the challenges have worked is that we each try to come up with an independent idea and execution, and if we "share" for the purpose of getting pre-submission advice, it is from family or through links or private messages, not by posting images in the public forums, before the submission deadline. That tactic is a relatively recent development, and introduces an element of unfairness.
If we are going to run this as a contest then let's do that, and stop what amounts to multiple submissions by some members. Otherwise, we should just start a new gallery each week with everyone getting one submission, and discussion starting immediately. But if you're going to have voting, let's try and make sure everyone gets an equal chance. I think everyone should get to have one on-topic photo discussed here each week. I think the designated place to post that photo for comments is in the challenge. |
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08/10/2004 11:09:49 PM · #125 |
This thread blows me away. I keep biting my tongue and I'll keep biting it, I guess. In the meantime, put me in Gordon's and Kavey's camp (and many others who've posted already). I'm hear to learn about taking better photographs. I don't care when/where they get discussed, and I certainly react to anyone's outtake by withdrawing my entry! My goodness! Why are you all so darned worried about protecting a thousandth or a hundredth of a point in a VIRTUAL contest anyway? Geesh!
Okay, on with the bickering. It's all so, um, productive. Yeah, right.
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