What Atheists Should Learn From Religion

05/07/2012 09:04:24 PM · #326

Ah, good ol' charity (skip ahead to 1:00).

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/07/2012 11:15:11 PM · #327

Interesting in that it contradicts real world studies which say religious people donate more time and money to both religious and secular charities. Would be nice to know why the conflicting results. My guess is partially selection bias.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/07/2012 11:44:45 PM · #328

Originally posted by Program Intro:

May 7, 2012

Teresa MacBain was pastor of a United Methodist church. In March, she made a confession: She is now an atheist. MacBain, NPR religion correspondent Barbara Bradley Hagerty and Jerry DeWitt, executive director of Recovering from Religion talk about how losing faith changes lives and communities.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/08/2012 04:18:37 PM · #329

Originally posted by GeneralE:

There was an interesting discussion on today's Talk of the Nation (NPR) program about When Religious Leaders Lose Their Faith (link should go to full transcript; streaming and podcasts also available). There's also a link to an earlier story (from last week).
Originally posted by Program Intro:
May 7, 2012

Teresa MacBain was pastor of a United Methodist church. In March, she made a confession: She is now an atheist. MacBain, NPR religion correspondent Barbara Bradley Hagerty and Jerry DeWitt, executive director of Recovering from Religion talk about how losing faith changes lives and communities.

I can't understand the hostility from her former congregants and friends. Is it so threatening to their own faith when just one person changes their mind about their own belief?

05/08/2012 05:25:25 PM · #330

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

I can't understand the hostility from her former congregants and friends. Is it so threatening to their own faith when just one person changes their mind about their own belief?

I didn't listen to the interview (though I heard a teaser for it where she announces she was a Methodist minister and is an atheist. I laughed at myself and thought it was like standing up and saying, "I'm a vegetarian, but, damn, I love a good veal cutlet!"), but I could understand the discontent. Her congregation would naturally feel betrayed and wonder about all the other counselling and advice she had given them on other issues. If she could be duplicitous (just going through the motions of leading services while not believing it herself) on something so big, what else did she not really mean? It's like finding out your doctor is a closet naturopath (without telling you).

Again, I didn't hear the responses, but I'd guess the underlying hurt is along these lines rather than it being a "threat to their faith".

Message edited by author 2012-05-08 17:27:09.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/08/2012 05:33:29 PM · #331

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

I can't understand the hostility from her former congregants and friends. Is it so threatening to their own faith when just one person changes their mind about their own belief?

I didn't listen to the interview (though I heard a teaser for it where she announces she was a Methodist minister and is an atheist. I laughed at myself and thought it was like standing up and saying, "I'm a vegetarian, but, damn, I love a good veal cutlet!"),

The terms "was" and "is" from my perspective do have some impact on the comments made.

Ray

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/14/2012 06:31:50 PM · #332

Speaking of excess, I have to rant a little about this Diane Hendricks, the billionaire (reportedly worth almost $3 billion) who was videotaped asking Scott Walker, Governor of Wisconsin, what he was going to do to bust unions in the state. So here is a person who made her fortune with non-union labor, a business that still operates on non-union labor, whose company paid no state income tax from 2005-2008, one of the richest people in the world, yet she feels compelled to drive down wages and degrade the living standard of ordinary working Joes and Janes. Does anyone else find this creature to be loathsome in the extreme?

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/14/2012 06:39:05 PM · #333

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Watching that video was like watching a train wreck. You have to wonder if these "people" have even a touch of humanity left in them any where.

05/21/2012 07:15:37 PM · #334

I learned that we should round up all the lesbians, queers, and homosexuals, then throw them into concentration camps!

Pastor Charles L. Worley of Providence Road Baptist Church

Can I get an amen? (Yes, we in fact can, see the video!)

Dudes posted this to their OWN SITE. This was not surreptitiously recorded.

Message edited by author 2012-05-21 19:17:50.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/22/2012 05:42:30 AM · #335

Originally posted by Mousie:

Truly sad that we still have people that think like this. The comments made sure could test the separation of church and state theory huh?

This gentleman could see the authorities at his door some day... this could be viewed as an incitement to hate.

Ray

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/30/2012 12:09:35 PM · #336

Pastor Worley gets defended by a member of his congregation... with deep insight, logic, and grace. (That's sarcasm BTW.)

//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cUXDKnL4xGE

And then Pastor Curtis Knapp steps it up a notch and just calls for the government to kill all the gays! Why bother with a fence when you can get the state to do God's work directly, for you? (It's not his idea, it's God's, so he's not ashamed.)

//www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2012/05/kansas-pastor-government-should-kill-gays.html

And then (it's been a delightful week, let me tell you) the people that whine petulantly about how awful it is for them to have to explain 'the gays' to their kids if they see two men holding hands on the street, or kissing on TV... God forbid they have to talk to their kids about the real world... those same people enthusiastically applaud (a standing ovation!) those very same children singing "Ain't no homo gonna make it to heaven!"

//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iRNbC-aSFLc

So I guess it's actually okay to teach kids that we exist... as long as it's about how evil we are, and how every last one of us is going to burn in hell for eternity. Dare I say indoctrinate? I suppose we can take that whole 'what about the innocent kids' argument off the table now. Oh wait, I forgot, religions don't have to be rational or consistent, they can just assert whatever they want, whenever it's convenient, because all of those hard-to-believe fairy tales actively select for people predisposed to a lack of logic.

This is the voice of religion. I keep learning so much! Y'all so harmless and well intentioned.

When are they going to round up all these dangerous Christians and toss them behind an electric fence? The good ones, anyway... the rest you can just stone to death for little things like adultery, divorce, and talking back to your parents, to save on electricity. Rocks are cheap and abundant.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/30/2012 01:13:20 PM · #337

Dr. Robert Spitzer recants "Gays Can Change" study, apologizes to gays ...

Originally posted by Program Abstract and Transcript:

Dr. Robert Spitzer's research was widely cited by those who conduct conversion therapy as proof that it worked. Dr. Spitzer says his findings were misinterpreted, and apologized. The American Psychological Association has said there is no evidence that it's possible to change sexual orientation.
CONAN: Do you think homosexuality is a choice?

SPITZER: Is a choice? No, for sure, that's the one thing I have no doubt about, it's no choice.

05/30/2012 11:09:56 PM · #338

Hey Mousie, should I go out on the Internet and learn everything there is about homosexuality from a handful of people I find? You are being childish and pedantic and this thread has zero to do with homosexuality. Nobody here is defending these people. Stop painting a religion with the example of a few nuts. You'd certainly bitch about it if you felt you were being treated similarly.

05/31/2012 12:42:36 PM · #339

You mean like 32 states denouncing our existence for religions reasons, by using religions campaigns and religious money to pass recent laws to make our lives much more difficult? That kind of a few nuts? See, that's my point... these are not just the ideas of a few nuts. "Homosexuality is incompatible with scripture" is the polite refrain and standard doctrine, but "they should be put to death" is the biblical mandate... and I could link twenty times as many moderates saying pretty much everything up to but not including "round them up", just from the ones that get their names in the news.

People here have certainly supported those laws while using a gentler interpretation of these beliefs. And call me crazy, but I seem to remember that I've been flatly told that I'm a sinner destined to hell, just like the toddler's song, by members here. I don't know if you remember the debate held a while ago where I refuted the idea that I'm a sinner... since sin is not part of my worldview... and the response was "oh but you ARE!" and that as an unrepentant non-Christian, I'm doomed to a terrible Biblically-defined afterlife. People here may not have supported these particular video clips, but you've supported the underlying beliefs.

But in any case I'm not painting a religion... I'm painting religion. We actually have it pretty good here... I could post twenty times the links, including calls for death, if I expanded what is admittedly a focus on locals to a worldwide pool. This isn't "What Atheists Should Learn From Christianity", but I'm using Christian examples so we can't pass this off as other people's problems.

My position has been that the same ideas that back 'love the sinner, hate the sin' lead to these extremes of speech, and often, action. I see them as part of a range of expressions along a continuum, the direct result of discrimination enshrined as God's law to support historical biases. Perhaps this is not what you want to learn from religion, but I can guarantee you that my former agnosticism was shifted to atheism for precisely these reasons. The more I learned about the beliefs and actions of those who profess themselves to be religious, the less accepting I became of the concept of a God of any kind.

But you're right. I already am bitching about things because of the way gays are treated. You got me pegged! And if we're making demands, how about you stop No True Scotsmanning us?

05/31/2012 12:56:26 PM · #340

1) Take your complaints and put them in the thread with "gay rights" in the title. Simple enough.
2) Realize there is a wide spectrum of positions available between full acceptance and wanting to put people behind an electric fence or to death. Your black and white reasoning is frankly compatible with the mentality of a six year old.

I understand your reaction and that you feel you are being singled out by these groups through stereotype, bigotry, and intolerance. I also clearly see you are utilizing the exact same tools to castigate your own perceived enemies. It's both sad and ironic. I'm just telling you to either knock it off or put it in the right thread so we can ignore it if we so choose.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/31/2012 03:53:20 PM · #341

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I also clearly see you are utilizing the exact same tools to castigate your own perceived enemies. It's both sad and ironic.

Yeah it should go in the What Atheists Shouldn't Learn from Religion thread.

05/31/2012 04:18:48 PM · #342

So that's twice you've called me childish, and asserted your authority over the content of individual threads. Unfortunately for you, this obligates me in no way to follow your suggestions.

Two things:

You willfully ignore my representation of these links (and similar, in the past) not as part of a black and white binary but as part of the same continuum that you just mentioned yourself. You have completely misrepresented my position and line of reasoning. It is because they are on the very same continuum that I see the entire thing as problematic. Today's more liberal religious position is what faith has been forced to fall back to to (publicly), to express the same underlying, unchanged beliefs. The thoughts of a lunatic fringe today were yesterday's default stance, and faith has a lot making up to do if it wants to be seen as redeemed.

Your insistence that I'm using the same tools as my opponents, when I'm actually using their own public statements, and they're using the bible (in place of the reality surrounding them) as their justifications, is flat out wrong. I point to current events, they point to six phrases in a thick book. You are being insultingly unfair, on top of being plain old insulting.

Maybe instead of harping about me and unilaterally demanding that I change my behavior for your benefit, you should work on the PR disaster being perpetrated by vocal splinters of your tradition. You may have better luck, since I'll stop talking about gay rights in religious contexts when religious people stop denying gay rights in secular contexts.

Finally, did you pause to think how similar your final statement is to suggesting I get back in the closet so you don't have to deal with gay stuff? Ponder that.

But what the hell do I know of nuance, with this crippling lack of grey?

05/31/2012 04:55:00 PM · #343

You are sounding more shrill by the moment...

BTW, I'm not questioning your right to disagree or even consider them to be wrong, dead wrong. I'm questioning your tactic of sweeping all religious people into the same group. Look at your own phrase...

"But in any case I'm not painting a religion... I'm painting religion." Holy cow. How could we get any more broad or stereotyping? Perhaps hone your language a little and it won't be so offensive.

That's all I'll deal with it. You are on your own after this.

05/31/2012 05:32:23 PM · #344

I was doing quite fine without you before you swept in, dad.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/31/2012 05:39:22 PM · #345

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

"But in any case I'm not painting a religion... I'm painting religion." Holy cow. How could we get any more broad or stereotyping? Perhaps hone your language a little and it won't be so offensive..

When one considers the views expressed by religious groups, I can understand how a generalization such as this could creep into the conversation.

Ray

05/31/2012 06:21:23 PM · #346

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

"But in any case I'm not painting a religion... I'm painting religion." Holy cow. How could we get any more broad or stereotyping? Perhaps hone your language a little and it won't be so offensive..

When one considers the views expressed by religious groups, I can understand how a generalization such as this could creep into the conversation.

Ray

Bigot.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

06/01/2012 12:25:57 PM · #347

I'm just dying to see some hard numbers on what percent of religions discriminate against or disapprove of homosexuality before we start throwing around words like stereotyping and bigot.

Message edited by author 2012-06-01 12:28:30.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

06/01/2012 01:13:16 PM · #348

Originally posted by Mousie:

I'm just dying to see some hard numbers on what percent of religions discriminate against or disapprove of homosexuality before we start throwing around words like stereotyping and bigot.

Don't mind the good Doc. It's always hard to hold fast to increasingly outdated belief systems in the face of rapidly changing societal paradigms. I don't blame him for getting frustrated.

06/01/2012 05:25:05 PM · #349

Guess I'm not the only thinking things along these lines:

Do All Evangelical Leaders Believe Gays Should Be Put to Death?

No, but they sure aren't doing anything to dissuade us from forming that impression.