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03/18/2012 11:27:36 AM · #1 |
If you don't know the details to the story, do a quick check.
So, they've convicted him and now he faces up to 10 yrs in prison and deportation. Am I the only one who doesn't think this is right? What he did was immature, he was 18 at the time. I have a feeling Tyler Clementi had issues before this incident and that it was this incident that pushed him to suicide...but it could've easily been something else. Should he be punished, yes...for invasion of privacy...but 10 yrs...I don't think so. I feel bad for the Clementi family and what they have gone through but it seems the public want to label Ravi a gay-basher of sorts when I don't think he is. He refused 2 plea deals...that took guts and a strong belief that you aren't the person people are trying to portray you as.
I think parents should take an active role in teaching their kids the difference between harmless teasing and bullying. My buddy was bullied...then he broke the kids fingers by his hand and pulling them all back. Never got bullied again...and no lawsuit. |
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03/18/2012 11:46:20 AM · #2 |
From the little I've heard, I would have convicted him of invasion of privacy at a minimum. "immature? He's of legal age and living on his own -- it's now his responsibility to act responsibly. What he did was deliberate and pre-meditated ... he didn't just happen to be around the corner with a camera when his roommate came in and show it to a couple of buddies, he hid a camera in advance and broadcast to the world -- how would you feel if someone secretely planted a webcam in your bedroom?
I don't think there's any point in arguing over the sentence until it's actually been pronounced by the judge. But, someone died as a result of his actions. I think he needs some time to reflect on that ...
Message edited by author 2012-03-18 11:49:31. |
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03/18/2012 11:54:37 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
From the little I've heard, I would have convicted him of invasion of privacy at a minimum. "immature? He's of legal age and living on his own -- it's now his responsibility to act responsibly. What he did was deliberate and pre-meditated ... he didn't just happen to be around the corner with a camera when his roommate came in and show it to a couple of buddies, he hid a camera in advance and broadcast to the world -- how would you feel if someone secretely planted a webcam in your bedroom?
I don't think there's any point in arguing over the sentence until it's actually been pronounced by the judge. But, someone died as a result of his actions. I think he needs some time to reflect on that ... |
Well said.. every word of it. This case is an important one.
And that incident with your buddy? Your buddy never got bullied by that person again but that doesn't mean that person wouldn't try it on somebody else.
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03/18/2012 12:01:52 PM · #4 |
Immature? Considering how early in life bullying starts I don't think that's a valid excuse. If you are the parent of a bully you have an obligation to stop it when it starts, and it's quite early. If not, these are the consequences your child could face. And trust me, these parents know their kid is a bully.
I could go on and on about this, my son has been bullied since kindergarten. He was always the smallest kid in the class, still is. It has been an uphill battle all the way. Teachers, administrators, tend to look the other way, but the police don't. I've made sure there were always consequences for the kids involved. And he has even become friends with some of the kids as a direct result of my getting involved with the parents of the children.
As for this case, I've followed it a bit since I live in the state it happened in. To me, it sure seemed calculated and intended to inflict pain. I think he's getting exactly what he deserves. |
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03/18/2012 01:01:58 PM · #5 |
If I get angry and swing at a person with my fist, if I miss, I get charged with disorderly conduct. If I connect, I get charged with battery. If by bad luck if the guy I hit falls down and dies I will be charged with murder or manslaughter.
Same action, different outcomes, different charges.
Both intent and outcome are considered in a criminal charge, and this guy may not have meant to, but he killed someone through his actions.
Message edited by author 2012-03-18 13:06:59. |
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03/18/2012 04:19:15 PM · #6 |
| I read an in-depth New Yorker article about this incident and it seems to me like he's just a stupid kid who can still learn from this, certainly not a bias-criminal, whatever that is. Put the crime on his record, expel him, but don't put him in jail. |
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03/18/2012 07:53:08 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Put the crime on his record, expel him, but don't put him in jail. |
i disagree, if only to be made an example for the next person who thinks about doing this. |
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03/18/2012 08:09:01 PM · #8 |
Had the victim not been gay, would this still have been a hate crime? Aren't all crimes hate crimes to some extent? Would this have been a different story had the couple been straight and not gay with Ravi being 'biased' against 'white girls'?
I've read that Clementi had taken pictures of the bridge he jumped off of, some indicating that he was already considering suicide. There is no doubt that young men and women are having far more difficulties growing up when they are uncomfortable with their own sexuality and being accepted not only by the community but by their families.
As far Ravi killing Clementi through his actions...I disagree. If my boss pushes me (Work, pressure, stress) to the point of suicide, does my boss bare the brunt of the responsibility in that case? He did so knowing that he was putting pressure on me, probably knew I wasn't handling the pressure well, but did nothing. I don't think a court would convict him of anything if my family were to bring him or the company to court. Anyone who has a family who commits suicide can now look for a way to blame others then, even if it wasn't their intent.
Message edited by author 2012-03-18 20:09:44. |
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03/18/2012 08:52:18 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Put the crime on his record, expel him, but don't put him in jail. |
i disagree, if only to be made an example for the next person who thinks about doing this. |
Don's argument makes sense in a lot of ways ... a freshman in college, yes of legal age but still a young age (I've known several 20 year olds who made stupid mistakes). I kind of agree with Kelli when she says that his behaviour should have been recognized earlier by a diligent parent. But is that the kid's fault? Expulsion from school and a record would be a pretty hard hit for a kid that age.
The case in point and the publicity due to the hate crime status has already set an example. |
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03/18/2012 08:58:15 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Don's argument makes sense in a lot of ways ... a freshman in college, yes of legal age but still a young age (I've known several 20 year olds who made stupid mistakes). |
I've known 30 and 40 years olds to do the same thing. We are not the jury here, and the guy was tried as an adult because he is one. |
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03/18/2012 09:06:22 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Don's argument makes sense in a lot of ways ... a freshman in college, yes of legal age but still a young age (I've known several 20 year olds who made stupid mistakes). |
I've known 30 and 40 years olds to do the same thing. We are not the jury here, and the guy was tried as an adult because he is one. |
It is really hard to judge when we weren't on the jury, didn't hear all the facts, etc.. it's really hard to say. But 18-20 is a far cry from 30-40. |
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03/18/2012 09:06:54 PM · #12 |
The concept of bullies makes me nervous. If one of my children was seriously targeted and bullied I could see myself contemplating irrational behavior, for sure.
However, the concept of jailing someone for "humiliating someone to death" should be meted out sparingly.
Maybe this is all a credit to our enforcement of civility, but I guess we also must ask, (not considering the posting of a private hook-up video)when will society reach a level of, if not "equality," then "acceptance" of LGBT individuals that "outing" someone is not embarrassing or humiliating, and not an issue anymore? |
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03/18/2012 09:22:45 PM · #13 |
| From all I've read about the case it does seem he was guilty of: invasion of privacy, tampering with evidence, and trying to influence what Molly Wei told police, but the "bias intimidation" charge, which carries the stiffest penalty, seems harder to believe. After reading the exact charges and hearing what some of the jurors said after the conviction, I can see why the jury had a hard time deciding to convict Ravi of the "bias" charge. He chose not to accept the plea bargain as he did not believe he was "homophobic" or hated gays but I guess in retrospect maybe he wishes he had as supposedly he would not have had any jail time. Very sad case all around. I feel sorry for both families. |
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03/18/2012 09:53:05 PM · #14 |
you guys realize that someone died here right? he's lucky he's only getting ten years.
i'm sorry but i have no sympathy for bully's. you don't go out of your way to ruins someone life like that, he deserves what he's getting.
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03/18/2012 09:56:18 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Put the crime on his record, expel him, but don't put him in jail. |
i disagree, if only to be made an example for the next person who thinks about doing this. |
Examples don't prevent crime. They make people feel like the punishment might help prevent someone from doing something in the future, but it's not true.
Punishment is payback by society for breaking laws and committing moral sins.
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03/18/2012 10:10:38 PM · #16 |
| that's fine, but he deserves to get his payback. |
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03/18/2012 10:12:04 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
The concept of bullies makes me nervous. If one of my children was seriously targeted and bullied I could see myself contemplating irrational behavior, for sure.
However, the concept of jailing someone for "humiliating someone to death" should be meted out sparingly.
Maybe this is all a credit to our enforcement of civility, but I guess we also must ask, (not considering the posting of a private hook-up video)when will society reach a level of, if not "equality," then "acceptance" of LGBT individuals that "outing" someone is not embarrassing or humiliating, and not an issue anymore? |
He wasn't charged with the death. It wasn't a factor in the trial at all from what I've read. |
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03/18/2012 10:18:57 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
The concept of bullies makes me nervous. If one of my children was seriously targeted and bullied I could see myself contemplating irrational behavior, for sure.
However, the concept of jailing someone for "humiliating someone to death" should be meted out sparingly.
Maybe this is all a credit to our enforcement of civility, but I guess we also must ask, (not considering the posting of a private hook-up video)when will society reach a level of, if not "equality," then "acceptance" of LGBT individuals that "outing" someone is not embarrassing or humiliating, and not an issue anymore? |
He wasn't charged with the death. It wasn't a factor in the trial at all from what I've read. |
Yet, if the student hadn't committed suicide, there probably wouldn't be a case?
I read an interesting analysis last week, wish I could remember where, but it was basically saying this was a lose - lose situation. Find him guilty, and this young man is bearing the brunt of a bad situation, being made an example of, etc. (and for those of you that say, "But, someone DIED!" yes, he did. but, suicide is rarely, if ever, caused by one incident. this may have been the event that pushed him over the edge, but there were probably more that got him there. . .)
Acquittal was equally as damning. Finding him not guilty of the charges would send the message that this behavior is okay. And it's not. |
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03/18/2012 10:41:30 PM · #19 |
| No he didn't mean to "kill" him but what he did resulted in his roommates death. I have been keeping up with this case and he turned down a plea deal that would have netted zero jail time. Also, the judge is now going to consult with the "victim's" family before sentencing. |
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03/18/2012 11:39:55 PM · #20 |
| Have not followed the case but suicide is rarely (to the point I want to say never) a result of one thing.... regardless of how bad that may have been. |
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03/19/2012 07:30:30 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I read an interesting analysis last week, wish I could remember where, but it was basically saying this was a lose - lose situation. Find him guilty, and this young man is bearing the brunt of a bad situation, being made an example of, etc. (and for those of you that say, "But, someone DIED!" yes, he did. but, suicide is rarely, if ever, caused by one incident. this may have been the event that pushed him over the edge, but there were probably more that got him there. . .)
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so i guess its ok that i go out and murder someone with a terminal disease? just the becuase the person was going to die anyway doesn't make the actions inexcusable.
this person intended to harm another, maybe not physically, but harm nonetheless, he deserves his time.
Message edited by author 2012-03-19 07:31:30. |
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03/19/2012 09:14:43 AM · #22 |
If you apply the same logic to the Columbine situation a few years back, the kids who did the killing were bullied into it, they chose murder rather than suicide, but deaths resulted from the actions of the bullies, who should have been jailed as responsible, (if they hadn't been killed).
But that's not right, is it? There is a human element in between, people have free choice, the kid who killed himself here could have killed Ravi instead of himself, would Ravi's acts risen to the level to have excused the murder as justified? I think the only rational answer is no.
Message edited by author 2012-03-19 09:15:35. |
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03/19/2012 09:37:33 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
I've read that Clementi had taken pictures of the bridge he jumped off of, some indicating that he was already considering suicide. |
Lots of people take pictures of bridges, they're no indicator of imminent suicide.
The guy intruded into the most private area of his victim's life, held a party to mock him and make him the subject of ridicule. He got what he deserves; prison and deportation. |
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03/19/2012 09:59:07 AM · #24 |
I agree with the outcome of this.
As others have said, if he happened to come across something, snap a quick shot with a phone and show it to a few buddies in order to have a "laugh" at his expense, *that* would be grounds for academic suspension/expulsion.
Setting up a hidden camera and broadcasting the stream the way he did is pre-meditated - he knew what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to do this and now he is going to face the penalty for it. His pre-meditated actions directly resulted in another person losing their life. 10 years and deportation is a small price compared to what some other countries would do to you for being directly responsible for another person's death.
Message edited by author 2012-03-19 09:59:36. |
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03/19/2012 10:02:53 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by heavyj:
I've read that Clementi had taken pictures of the bridge he jumped off of, some indicating that he was already considering suicide. |
Lots of people take pictures of bridges, they're no indicator of imminent suicide.
The guy intruded into the most private area of his victim's life, held a party to mock him and make him the subject of ridicule. He got what he deserves; prison and deportation. |
The reason I brought it ups was simply because lawyers in conversations (On TV) were talking about it. I would assume that had his hobby been photography or bridges then it wouldn't have come up but it did, so I'm ASSUMING that they have knowledge of evidence that we don't...yet.
 mike_311 you're comparing apples and oranges. A man who murders another because he's terminally ill and doesn't want to die vs a man who had no intention of pushing a person to commit suicide. Premeditated and then the opposite.
As others have pointed out, I don't think that this incident alone would've caused him to kill himself (And we'll never know). I'm not saying it wasn't embarrassing and hurtful, but I'm sure there was more to Clementi's life than this one incident. Now, if my roommate did the same to me and showed his circle of friends the girl I was sleeping with, I would've hit him with a lawsuit (Had it been a hurtful thing to me) and gotten PAID (If possible). Committing suicide without leaving any trace or reason behind why (I'm guessing the jury can't 'assume' this was the only incident) makes it difficult for me to believe it was ALL Ravi.
And by no means am I defending Ravi's actions. I think what he did was terrible. However, I don't think 10 yrs in prison is the answer. If this sets the standards by which all future court cases will rely on, then any grieving family can point the finger at someone and try and place blame on them in an effort to find some comfort.
RyanWareham I think we have differing opinions on what premeditation is and how it applies to these cases.
Message edited by author 2012-03-19 10:05:45. |
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