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05/09/2012 05:23:02 PM · #1251 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Patriarchal culture and the practice of infanticide of female children is the main cause, in my opinion. |
Yes, of course, but Doc's making the point that where Christianity makes significant inroads it mitigates against these factors. Whether the assumption's correct or not I don't know, but...
R.
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05/09/2012 05:32:53 PM · #1252 |
Yes, what Bear said. Naturally infanticide of baby girls (or sex-selective abortions) is the actual method resulting in a gender-disparity, but I talked about how Christianity turned Greco-Roman culture on its head with regard to infanticide. Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion.
Message edited by author 2012-05-09 17:33:19. |
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05/09/2012 05:44:06 PM · #1253 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Tell me why paying for vasectomies is equivalent to paying for death, or admit you're just spouting off irrelevancies for no good reason. |
Well, I thought I could explain this in a straight forward way, but it's a stretch.
The best I can show is:
1. Marital act produces life
2. Disruption of the marital act doesn't produce life.
But, in order for you to accept that, you need to share my beliefs.
So, I don't think I can make a good connection. You are right I am spouting off irrelevancies. I'm sorry I've disrespected you and your family.
I've been own3d. |
I would not want to rain on your parade my friend but I have been married many years now and can state for a fact that in our case being married did not produce life... in vitro fertilization did that, and that too is seemingly against the doctrine of the Catholic church.
It might come as a shock for you to find out that at our age, marriage notwithstanding, there is not much likelihood that it will produce life anytime soon.
As for your beliefs, I used to share those...but not any more.
Ray |
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05/09/2012 05:45:11 PM · #1254 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion. |
I don't think anyone's claimed that every value incorporated into the Judeo-Christian tradition is bad ... |
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05/09/2012 05:47:55 PM · #1255 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Yes, what Bear said. Naturally infanticide of baby girls (or sex-selective abortions) is the actual method resulting in a gender-disparity, but I talked about how Christianity turned Greco-Roman culture on its head with regard to infanticide. Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion. |
Or could it be because of the one child rule put into place due to over population? Could it be the fact that these people need sons to support them in their old age? Of course, the wealthy get an exemption. |
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05/09/2012 05:54:59 PM · #1256 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion. |
I don't think anyone's claimed that every value incorporated into the Judeo-Christian tradition is bad ... |
Paul! I will accept that as high praise. :) |
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05/09/2012 05:56:58 PM · #1257 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Yes, what Bear said. Naturally infanticide of baby girls (or sex-selective abortions) is the actual method resulting in a gender-disparity, but I talked about how Christianity turned Greco-Roman culture on its head with regard to infanticide. Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion. |
Or could it be because of the one child rule put into place due to over population? Could it be the fact that these people need sons to support them in their old age? Of course, the wealthy get an exemption. |
Only China has a one child policy. And even then, that doesn't mean one must kill their girls (or that killing their girls is, therefore, acceptable). |
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05/09/2012 05:57:12 PM · #1258 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion. |
I don't think anyone's claimed that every value incorporated into the Judeo-Christian tradition is bad ... |
Paul! I will accept that as high praise. :) |
What... how is that better than someone suggesting you sound like a politician. I always thought they were held in high esteem. :o)
Ray |
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05/09/2012 06:11:30 PM · #1259 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Yes, what Bear said. Naturally infanticide of baby girls (or sex-selective abortions) is the actual method resulting in a gender-disparity, but I talked about how Christianity turned Greco-Roman culture on its head with regard to infanticide. Could it be that India and China have not had the benefit of this influence and this is why the practice persists in an accepted fashion. |
Or could it be because of the one child rule put into place due to over population? Could it be the fact that these people need sons to support them in their old age? Of course, the wealthy get an exemption. |
Only China has a one child policy. And even then, that doesn't mean one must kill their girls (or that killing their girls is, therefore, acceptable). |
It doesn't mean they must. But, most do it purely for economic reasons (though I'm sure there are others). It is illegal. But I don't buy your claim that Christians were the first or only ones convincing people not to commit infanticide.
Ancient Egypt
In Egyptian households, at all social levels, children of both sexes were valued and there is no evidence of infanticide.[15] The religion of the Ancient Egyptians forbade infanticide and during the Greco-Roman period they rescued abandoned babies from manure heaps, a common method of infanticide by Greeks or Romans, and were allowed to either adopt them as foundlings or raise them as slaves, often giving them names such as "copro -" to memorialise their rescue. |
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05/09/2012 06:14:39 PM · #1260 |
I'm not making such a claim Kelli. But in the world today, Western culture has received it's value of life from Judeo-Christianity and that's what matters for our discussion and for my argument. I'm well aware what the wiki says. ;)
If you want to look at wiki, try this one Global Gender Gap which lists gender disparity by country. Start at the bottom and work your way up. Let me know when you get to a country you would say has substatial Judeo-Christian influence. Then start at the top and work your way down and let me know when you get to a country that does not have substantial Judeo-Christian influence. (or better yet, take the bottom, say, 25 countries and the top 25 countries and compare Judeo-Christian to other influences ratio. The correlation is striking.
Message edited by author 2012-05-09 18:18:30. |
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05/09/2012 06:25:48 PM · #1261 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not making such a claim Kelli. But in the world today, Western culture has received it's value of life from Judeo-Christianity and that's what matters for our discussion and for my argument. I'm well aware what the wiki says. ;)
If you want to look at wiki, try this one Global Gender Gap which lists gender disparity by country. Start at the bottom and work your way up. Let me know when you get to a country you would say has substatial Judeo-Christian influence. Then start at the top and work your way down and let me know when you get to a country that does not have substantial Judeo-Christian influence. (or better yet, take the bottom, say, 25 countries and the top 25 countries and compare Judeo-Christian to other influences ratio. The correlation is striking. |
Who is killed when isn't really the point you were making though, is it?
The United States ranked eleventh for infants under 1 year killed, and fourth for those killed from 1 through 14 years (the latter case not necessarily involving filicide), circa 1983.[102] In the U.S. over six hundred children were killed by their parents in 1983.[103] In Canada 114 cases of child murder by a parent were reported during 1964-1968.[104] The U.S. Centers for Disease Control's latest available data from 2007 show that U.S. infant mortality is 21% higher in male infants than female, but makes no suggestion that this is due to any pattern of preferential infanticide.[105] Some of the cases that made news were those of Amy Grossberg and Brian Peterson, Genene Jones, Marybeth Tinning, Melissa Drexler, Dena Schlosser and Waneta Hoyt.
In the United States the infanticide rate during the first hour of life dropped from 1.41 per 100,000 during 1963 to 1972 to 0.44 per 100,000 for 1974 to 1983; the rates during the first month of life also declined, whereas those for older infants rose during this time.[106] The legalization of abortion, which was completed in 1973, was the most important factor in the decline in neonatal mortality during the period from 1964 to 1977, according to a study by economists associated with the National Bureau of Economic Research.[106][107]
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05/09/2012 06:29:34 PM · #1262 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Doc's making the point that where Christianity makes significant inroads it mitigates against these factors. |
Well if we're making claims of causality, it should be quite obvious that India and China have not had the benefit of ancient Egyptian religion, which forbade infanticide long before Judeo-Christianity even existed and often rescued Greek and Roman babies that had been left to die. Thank Horus we had the Egyptians to turn morality on its head! Of course this also ignores the reverse impact of religion where strong beliefs in reincarnation (notably in Asia) prompted many parents to kill disabled or burdensome children in the hope that they would be reborn into a better life. |
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05/09/2012 06:36:46 PM · #1263 |
| Its not religion, but cultural, that values boys more than girls in India. A girl must be "married off" and with her must go a substantial dowry. For a poor family, this is next to impossible, and therefore, a very difficult life for the unmarried girl. Better to "get rid" of her and try for a boy, who receives the bounty of the dowry with his bride. I don't think religion has anything to do with it, though I'm sure the correlation (which we all know from research statistics 101, isn't causation) gives comfort to many missionaries who make it their noble purpose to bring civilized religion to places like India. |
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05/09/2012 06:38:07 PM · #1264 |
Big old eye roll at Shannon. Ok, Horus-man. Go through the Gender Gap list and give me the ratio of Horus influenced countries versus non-Horus influenced countries for the Top 25 and Bottom 25. I'll do the work for you for Christianity. We'll test our hypotheses.
Gender Gap Inequality
Best 25: Christian influenced to non: 24:1 (we could argue about Latvia, but I'll just give it to you)
Worst 25: Christian influenced to non: 4:21 (I'll count Guatemala, Ethiopia, Camaroon and Nigeria). Of those, only one (Guatemala) does not have a concomitant strong Muslim influence which may be a confounding factor).
Hit me with the Horus numbers. Too bad Egypt itself is in the bottom 25. :)
Message edited by author 2012-05-09 18:40:44. |
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05/09/2012 07:03:43 PM · #1265 |
Originally posted by frisca:
I don't think religion has anything to do with it, though I'm sure the correlation (which we all know from research statistics 101, isn't causation) gives comfort to many missionaries who make it their noble purpose to bring civilized religion to places like India. |
Bingo. Countries and societies with the highest rates of infanticide strongly correspond to those with the highest burden of raising children– those with wars, poverty and scarce food resources. Anyone trying to claim the moral influence of Christianity on modern society has the little problem of those same codes being originally co-opted from pre-existing Egyptian morality. |
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05/09/2012 07:07:14 PM · #1266 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Anyone trying to claim the moral influence of Christianity on modern society has the little problem of those same codes being originally co-opted from pre-existing Egyptian morality. |
Why is that a "problem"? That was then, this is now. Christianity has been the vector for these particular moral codes in the Western world for some time. Whether they originated them or not is not especially germane to the argument.
R.
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05/09/2012 07:10:11 PM · #1267 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Big old eye roll at Shannon. Ok, Horus-man. Go through the Gender Gap list and give me the ratio of Horus influenced countries versus non-Horus influenced countries ... |
To me the implication of Shannon's post is that Judaism (and therefore Christianity) are themselves the result of influence by the Egyptian model, and that they therefore act more as a conduit for than font of these values ... |
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05/09/2012 07:11:08 PM · #1268 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Christianity has been the vector for these particular moral codes in the Western world for some time. Whether they originated them or not is not especially germane to the argument.
R. |
Oooh, I would have thought that you'd use "conduit" and I'd use "vector" ... ;-)
Message edited by author 2012-05-09 19:12:29. |
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05/09/2012 07:19:23 PM · #1269 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Big old eye roll at Shannon. Ok, Horus-man. Go through the Gender Gap list and give me the ratio of Horus influenced countries versus non-Horus influenced countries ... |
To me the implication of Shannon's post is that Judaism (and therefore Christianity) are themselves the result of influence by the Egyptian model, and that they therefore act more as a conduit for than font of these values ... |
Let's say from a sociological point of view this is possible. It still doesn't matter. We now call Horus worship Christianity. It does seem odd, however, that Egypt and the countries right around it would be among the bad performers and not the good performers.
Listen, I'm fully willing to say it isn't an open and shut case that Christianity is the main (or only) factor influencing this, but there is a strong correlation. The possibilities Shannon raised (ie. economic forces) are also possible, although the correlation is not quite as strong. Among the Best 25 we wouldn't consider about 8 of them to be devloped. Among the Worst 25 we maybe have 2-4 countries that aren't really hurting (and if you go another 10 up you hit South Korea, Maldives, UAE, and Kuwait which are all fairly well off).
A second possibility is the Islam is a negative influence rather than Christianity is a positive one. It doesn't explain the Asian countries very well though and you start hitting more and more as you move up the bottom.
Correlation, indeed, does not mean causation. The bigger picture is that sex-selective abortion/infanticide is an ugly downside to the principles which allow abortion and, ironically, work AGAINST the equality of women when people frame the argument as a women's rights issue. So by allowing abortion we may be helping Petra by robbing Paulina.
Message edited by author 2012-05-09 19:22:00. |
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05/09/2012 07:47:03 PM · #1270 |
| abortion is neutral on sex-selection of babies. Baby girls were being flung over the precipice long before abortion was accessible or legal. |
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05/09/2012 07:48:51 PM · #1271 |
Originally posted by frisca:
abortion is neutral on sex-selection of babies. Baby girls were being flung over the precipice long before abortion was accessible or legal. |
haha. Dream on frisca...
As long as you defend a woman's right to have an abortion you are inadvertently defending their right to choose to abort based on gender. As long as that choice is available girls will bear the brunt of the cost to the tune of tens of millions in Asia. There's no way around that.
Message edited by author 2012-05-09 19:59:12. |
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05/09/2012 09:08:24 PM · #1272 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
As long as you defend a woman's right to have an abortion you are inadvertently defending their right to choose to abort based on gender. As long as that choice is available girls will bear the brunt of the cost to the tune of tens of millions in Asia. There's no way around that. |
If you can't figure out a pretty freakin' obvious way around that, maybe you should ask a doctor. Nearly 80% of abortions performed in the U.S. occur by the 10th week (when gender is unknown). The birth ratio of girls has increased since Roe v Wade, and adoption rates for girls are far higher than boys in the U.S. (even where more boys are available for adoption). |
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05/09/2012 09:26:42 PM · #1273 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Big old eye roll at Shannon. Ok, Horus-man. Go through the Gender Gap list and give me the ratio of Horus influenced countries versus non-Horus influenced countries ... |
To me the implication of Shannon's post is that Judaism (and therefore Christianity) are themselves the result of influence by the Egyptian model, and that they therefore act more as a conduit for than font of these values ... |
Let's say from a sociological point of view this is possible. It still doesn't matter. We now call Horus worship Christianity. It does seem odd, however, that Egypt and the countries right around it would be among the bad performers and not the good performers.
Listen, I'm fully willing to say it isn't an open and shut case that Christianity is the main (or only) factor influencing this, but there is a strong correlation. The possibilities Shannon raised (ie. economic forces) are also possible, although the correlation is not quite as strong. Among the Best 25 we wouldn't consider about 8 of them to be devloped. Among the Worst 25 we maybe have 2-4 countries that aren't really hurting (and if you go another 10 up you hit South Korea, Maldives, UAE, and Kuwait which are all fairly well off).
A second possibility is the Islam is a negative influence rather than Christianity is a positive one. It doesn't explain the Asian countries very well though and you start hitting more and more as you move up the bottom.
Correlation, indeed, does not mean causation. The bigger picture is that sex-selective abortion/infanticide is an ugly downside to the principles which allow abortion and, ironically, work AGAINST the equality of women when people frame the argument as a women's rights issue. So by allowing abortion we may be helping Petra by robbing Paulina. |
Arabia
The pre-Islamic Arabian society practiced infanticide as a form of "post-partum birth control".[47] Regarding the prevalence of this practice, we know it was "common enough among the pre-Islamic Arabs to be assigned a specific term, waʾd".[48] Infanticide was practiced either out of destitution (thus practiced on males and females alike), or as sacrifices to gods, or as "disappointment and fear of social disgrace felt by a father upon the birth of a daughter".[47]
Some authors believe that there is little evidence that infanticide was prevalent in pre-Islamic Arabia or early Muslim history, except for the case of the Tamim tribe, who practiced it during severe famine.[49] Others state that "female infanticide was common all over Arabia during this period of time" (pre-Islamic Arabia), especially by burying alive a female newborn.[8][50]
Infanticide is explicitly prohibited by the Qur'an.[51] "And do not kill your children for fear of poverty; We give them sustenance and yourselves too; surely to kill them is a great wrong." [52]
The Qur'an rejected the practice of infanticide. Together with polytheism and homicide, infanticide was regarded as a grave sin (see 6:151 and 60:12).[47] Infanticide is also implicitly denounced in the story of Pharaoh's slaughter of the male children of Israelites |
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05/09/2012 10:40:30 PM · #1274 |
Originally posted by frisca:
abortion is neutral on sex-selection of babies. Baby girls were being flung over the precipice long before abortion was accessible or legal. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
haha. Dream on frisca...
As long as you defend a woman's right to have an abortion you are inadvertently defending their right to choose to abort based on gender. As long as that choice is available girls will bear the brunt of the cost to the tune of tens of millions in Asia. There's no way around that. |
I don't see anyone here defending a right to choose to abort based on gender. Frisca and Shannon and Kelli are absolutely correct. What's happening in China (and some other places) is they're just transferring onto abortion a practice that has been in place forever, for cultural/social/economic reasons. Do you really think that if abortion were illegal and they wanted to get rid of their female infants, they couldn't find a way? |
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05/09/2012 11:33:12 PM · #1275 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by frisca:
abortion is neutral on sex-selection of babies. Baby girls were being flung over the precipice long before abortion was accessible or legal. |
haha. Dream on frisca...
As long as you defend a woman's right to have an abortion you are inadvertently defending their right to choose to abort based on gender. As long as that choice is available girls will bear the brunt of the cost to the tune of tens of millions in Asia. There's no way around that. |
Are you smoking crack?! The right to choose an abortion is NOT equal to women choosing to abort female fetuses. Your rhetoric here is both hyperbole and complete falsehood. Your statement above is utterly misogynist! You are implying that women are so amoral that whenever given the chance, they will discover the gender of their child and if it is a gender that THEY SHARE, that child will be aborted because abortion is available. I can think of little that is more insulting, degrading and patently false. Where are you getting this information from? I speak about India because I'm intimately familiar with indian culture. I cannot speak for China or any other nation that might celebrate boys more than girls.
The majority of abortions happen before gender can be positively determined. In many hospitals in my province, there is a practice that gender is not revealed prior to the 20th week, and in the particular hospital where I delivered my child, the gender was never revealed to me, even if I wanted to know. How does that equate with gender-based abortion? I cannot speak for the policy of abortions in other countries, and perhaps if they allow late abortions or abortions that are clearly based on the sex of the fetus, that is a problem, but that is not a problem created or encouraged by the legality of abortion.
I am appalled you'd make such a hateful statement. |
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